Socialism and Capitalism. one for all or all for one?

[BFG]

Here it is Ghostsniper the big one - interesting to see what folks have to say about all this. Would love to talk about communism: Communism; a conjectured future classless, stateless social organization based upon common ownership of the means of production.


Socialism; an ideology of a social and economic system where the means of production are owned and controlled by all of society.

Capitalism; an economic or socio-economic system in which the means of production are overwhelmingly privately owned and operated for profit, decisions regarding investment of capital are made privately, and where production, distribution, and the prices of goods, services, and labor are affected by the forces of supply and demand in a largely free market.

Now we are talking purist political ideals here, but i suppose to summerise my view very simplistically would be something like this (and we're talking 'ideals here')- in the UK social support structures are underffunded and under threat from profit seeking corporations. Today the United States, once the citadel of capitalism, is a "mixed economy" in which government bestows favors and imposes restrictions with no clear or consistent principle in mind.

Socialism is Designed to treat all fairly, services etc are provided to all regardless of wealth or status. Example the NHS service in the UK a free health service provided to every citizen of the UK without question. whether you are rich or poor you are given (ideally) the treatment you require. (please not the 'ideally' because in reality the NHS is sorely underfunded etc etc)

Capitalism: Designed to give those with wealth preference. Action is for self iinterest. Profit is the priority - people come second, wallets come first. The distribution of wealth and earnings is unbalenced. In the capitalist economies, the distributions of earnings and, especially, of wealth are concentrated and skewed to the right.

... discuss?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I see it like this...I earn my money by working hard, so why should the government get to tax me to death just because they think they can spend my money better than I can?  They take part of my income every month, and for many things, I support what they use it on (a strong military, healthcare for the elderly and the disabled, education systems, etc).  But for many things, I am against what they spend my money on...Welfare for people who are able to work but simply refuse to, giving foreign aid to countries that don't deserve it, keeping terrorists that they capture alive instead of executing them, etc.

As with any system, there are people who will abuse it, on both ends (the government and the people).  Also, as for the healthcare debate, I believe that our system works better.  Most employers have health benifits, and the care you receive at U.S. hospitals is pretty good.  And even if you don't have health insurance, you can not be denied treatment at any hospital in the United States.  So in reality, every U.S. Citizen has healthcare.  Sure, it's not free unlimited healthcare like you get in some Socialist countries, but the care you do receive is better.

Now then, as for Communism that you brought up...in its pure form the way that Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels thought about it, wasn't such a bad idea...but it has never been used in that form.  Communist Dictatorships have NOTHING in common with Karl Marx's Communism.  That said, I still would never support even a "True" Communist state.

Okay, that's all I have time for right this second...more to follow. 

[Toxic::Joka]

I met my first real-life communist last saturday, boy was she a silly twat.

Anyway, communism doesn't work. It's a nice thought and all, but it simply doesn't work. People are selfish. If I'm looking at a 10 year adventure through various education facilities only to earn little more or as much as I would have if I just started working straight away, it's not just tempting - I wouldn't do it. If however I know that at the end of this struggle I'll get a shitload of money, it changes things a bit.
I think the Nordic welfare system is a somewhat nice compromise of socialism and capitalism though. A good system is a one where eveyone starts on the same line, but success is defined by one's own determination and hard work, where everyone can climb on the "social ladder" in whatever direction and as many steps as their diligence allows them to.

The picture I've gotten of the US is that in order to get certain jobs you need to have gone through an "ivy league college" and in order to get in there you need to have lots of money. ie. Everyone does not start from the same line.

In a Communist system it doesn't matter if you're lazy or industrious, you'll be equally bad off in either case. Ie. People will be lazy. Unless ofcourse you introduce certain totalitarian aspects in to your society and provide some *cough* incentives.

[BTs_FahQ2]

I like this arguement. Good topic.

First of all, Socialism and Communism will never work. much like joka said, people are selfish, it's in our nature. We inherently put different values on many different items, and when nobody can put the same values across all items and/or products, how the hell could you even begin to reason with a even structure of reality. Someone will alway covet something, horde it or put it at a higher value, thus already creating the begginnings of capitalism.

As for our health system, it is a very large disbelief outside of the US that we ignore those without health care and they are left to die. The US has a large and vast welfare system that doesn't allow anyone to be ignored. Anyone can walk into a hospital and receive healthcare whether they can afford it or not,  I guess the quality of the healthcare can be questionable, but the same goes for much places in the world. Hell, we even take huge numbers of non US citizens into our healthcare system for free that is begginning to destroy our version of the heathcare system and social welfare, but that is another argument.

Now wealth. Well, once you get enough money in a capitalistic society, it is pretty freaking hard to lose it. Your money gets so tied up across so many investments that almost never really lose value, you could never lose it all. All the families that have money usually will always have money because the investments will never really dissapear. But as for Jokas view:

I've gotten of the US is that in order to get certain jobs you need to have gone through an "ivy league college" and in order to get in there you need to have lots of money. ie. Everyone does not start from the same line.

This is not true. This is probably an old statistic, but somewhere around 50% of all millionaires didn't even go to college. Some of the most successful never graduated college. This line still holds true in that many studies show that success and wealth is usually gained through intelligence and determination and not outright socioeconomic status. The reason most wealthy people from wealthy families remain weathly is from what i discussed above. But there is no real glass ceiling in the US, it is still pretty open for most to succeed or fail. Of course we could analyze this much deeper with race, upbringing and so on, but I dont' want to write a 100 page rebuttle.

Last but not least, i also don't see the right of everyone to start off on an even playing field at birth. It's basically darwinism, i think you should be able to have a better start if your parents worked to give it to you. I think it's the fruits of their labor that your should reap, not be penalyzed every generation for doing well so that social misfits can give their offspring a fair chance.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

To continue on with part of Fah's rebuttle of something Joka said...

Take me for example.  I come from the very low end of the middle class.  My parents never made a lot of money.  My father died when I was 9 (he was a truck driver) and my mother remarried when I was 12, to a man who was enlisted in the U.S. Air Force.  Although I really never went hungry, we certainly never really had it all that good.  Now then, I joined the military, the military paid for me to go to college, and then I went out and started selling cars.  College didn't really help me get my job though...you can sell cars and not even have graduated from high school (most car salesmen are high school dropouts).  So, I worked my ass off selling cars from 1998, when I left the military, to 2003, when I became the Fleet Sales Manager at my dealership.  Sure, now I make $250,000 a year, but that has only been in the last 2 or 3 years.  I make as much or more than many doctors, lawyers, and other professionals that went through 8 years of college. 

So what you are saying Joka really doesn't hold true.  I think people in other countries steriotype Americans in certain ways simply because they have never lived here to see how our society works for themselves.  It's a pretty great country, you should come see with your own eyes sometime.  I think too many people in the world look at us through their tainted glasses that only allow them to see what their society has told them about us.

[Toxic::Joka]

Hehe, I just said that's the picture I've gotten.

I don't think you should be penalized if your parents happen to be rich, if your parents have the money and want to pay for an even better learning enviroment then go for it. But neither should the poor kids have to be penalized for their parents bad choices, society should provide them with an adequate baseline start for life if their parents can't. Also, I find it somewhat dubious if that baseline isn't sufficient for certain jobs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't done in your slums?

[Macuber]

Better save wisely GS... Ford's just about to go down the crapper.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't done in your slums?

You can come out of our slums, and just like any other citizen, do what I did and join the military and let them pay your way through college.  Being born poor SHOULD be an extra incentive for you to strive to get the things you want in life, not a crutch to whine about for the rest of your life and ask the government for handouts.  Look at Colin Powell...he rose from the slums of New York City to become Chairman of the Joint Cheifs of Staff and later Secretary of State of the United States.

Better save wisely GS... Ford's just about to go down the crapper.

Nope, won't affect me one bit.  I sell fleet vehicles to the government, a market that is totally unaffected by what's going on in the "retail" end of Ford.  Besides, the job layoffs are just a way for the company to do some long-overdue restructering to make everything run more efficiently.  Sucks if you are one of the 30,000 to get laid off though.

[Macuber]

Esp when they were making 6 figure salaries. Never think for one moment your job is that secure GS.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Esp when they were making 6 figure salaries. Never think for one moment your job is that secure GS.

Mine is...I don't work for Ford. 

Only one person in the dealership has my job, that's me.  And the last guy that had my job was here for 17 years before he decided to go into business for himself.  At this dealership, your job is yours as long as you want it.

[BTs_FahQ2]

can i have a six figure as long as i want salary with you?

[Macuber]

Or as long as the Dealership stays in business.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Or as long as the Dealership stays in business.

The dealership has been in business since 1953.  It is by far the largest dealership of any brand in South Mississippi.  And also, besides Ford we also sell Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda, and soon to be Volvo.  I don't think we're going anywhere anytime soon.[/size]

[Macuber]

"I don't think we're going anywhere anytime soon."

Brooklyn Dodgers (1890-1957)
Baltimore Colts (1953-1983)
Los Angeles Rams (1946-1994)

I've just given you a "Free" Class on Capitalism 101. When I was your age I thought the same thing, but as you get alittle older things change.
Sometime I'll explain about Outsourcing Jobs (Capitalism 102)

[BTs_GhostSniper]

"I don't think we're going anywhere anytime soon."

Brooklyn Dodgers (1890-1957)
Baltimore Colts (1953-1983)
Los Angeles Rams (1946-1994)

I've just given you a "Free" Class on Capitalism 101. When I was your age I thought the same thing, but as you get alittle older things change.
Sometime I'll explain about Outsourcing Jobs (Capitalism 102)

Well, first of all, none of those were family-owned companies.  We are.  Also, you can't outsource someone physically selling you a car.  The auto manufacturers have been trying to do it since forever and it simply can't be done.  You will always have dealerships and you will always have salesmen in those dealerships selling the cars.  Plus, even if something ever happened to my dealership, or I decided to leave, I can work anywhere in the country at any dealership I choose.  This is not a profession that you can use the "normal" rules of the corporate world on.  Auto Dealerships are very different from just about any other type of business in America (or the world, for that matter).  I've had dealerships all over the country BEG me to come work for them (I've been in the top 1% of all Ford Fleet Sales Managers in sales volume 3 years running).  Not to brag or anything, but the only way I'd ever lose my job at my dealership is if I chose to leave.[/size]

[Macuber]

"None of those were family-owned companies"

Excuse me.. but each one of those were "Family Owned".

Leland Stanford "Larry" MacPhail, Sr. (Brooklyn Dodgers)
The innovative, tempestuous MacPhail started a family baseball tradition. His son Lee became president of the American League, and his grandson Andy was general manager of the 1987 World Champion Minnesota Twins.

Robert Irsay (Baltimore Colts)
His son, Jim (the former president of the Indianapolis Colts,)

Carroll Rosebloom (Los Angles Rams)
Georgia Frontiere took over the organization in 1979 when her late husband Carroll Rosenbloom on April 2 that year, drowned while swimming off the Florida coast.  Georgia not only took over the team, she shook the front office by firing executive vice-president Steve Rosenbloom, Carroll's son.

"*Capitalism...depends on which end of the stick your at."
*Quote ™'ed By Macuber

[BTs_GhostSniper]

"None of those were family-owned companies"

Excuse me.. but each one of those were "Family Owned".

No, not family owned from START to FINISH.  Butch Oustalet's father started the Ford Dealership in 1953.  It was not PASSED down to Butch like an inheritance...Butch had to find investors and BUY the franchise from his father in 1984.  So, here you have one dealership that has been owned by the same family since 1953.

[BTs_FahQ2]

So are we arguing now whether or not GS's job is actually for life? Or whether or not a family actually owns his business from beginning to end?

And how does sports franchises reflect small businesses? What the hell, this all doesn't make a shit of sense.

[MacMan]

 

no political system is flawless, anarchy sounds tempting, but i'd end up getting my ass killed by someone stronger 

heh, that's darwin for ya

[Macuber]

"And how does sports franchises reflect small businesses? What the hell, this all doesn't make a shit of sense."

Professional Sports is the Premire Example of Capitalism, which is the topic here.