Views on The Cartoons of Mohammed.

[BFG]

Ack im sorely lacking some interesting discussions/debate.. so thought id pull up a couple of things to talk about.. first up its hitting the headlines here and causing uproar but i wondered what all your thoughts were. If you don't know what i'm talking about from the subject thread erm you should but a Danish paper published cartoons of mohammed that caused uproar in the Muslim world. Other newspapers around europe then published the cartoons in a 'show of defiance' in their 'freedom of speech'.

My question is where are the lines drawn between Freedom of speech and respect and understanding of religion and belief? To what extent can we expect a multinational and cultural society to integrate and coexist if under the call of 'freedom of speech' peoples religions and believes are attacked? There is a point where respect and understanding in others can work alongside a freedom to express ones beliefs... but where is that point?

Won't post my views on it now to keep subject and opinion separate till someone has kicked us off (someone please!! )

[Mr.Mellow]

I'd add something, but have nothing to add. I agree with BFG, though. 

[Brutha]

Freedom of the press...it's a hard one to crack. But look at it this way. There have been so many newspaper articles about unpopular issues for islam. There have been people on the news on TV criticized islam, and never before have these two issues caused any threats or hardly even protests. Now people start to publish pointless Mohammed cartoons and you have these protests. Well, in Islam it's forbidden to create images of Mohammed, and considered a great sin. And in an arabic world that more and more feels opressed by the western world, one mortal sin can be enough to ignite the flame. I believe in the freedom of the press, but within reason. I believe the press must be held accountable in the end for their actions. Bringing down criminals, corrupt politicians, corrupt business men is one thing, but publishing these pictures is going way beyond that. It's putting your own principles ahead of the safety of others.

In Norway these pics were published in a christian newspaper(5000 readers), and the editor says that in the name of the freedom of the press, these pictures had to be printed.....I wonder if someone could draw a nude pic of the virgin mary with a bomb between her legs and ask him to do a printing of that. I wonder if he had responded the same way.

[z][t-Rampage]

i'm a little split on this one BFG,

i know that a newspaper like Jyllandposten has been around so long that they would know that this would cause heavy reactions. perhaps not to the degree that it has, but still reactions. also there is another piece of news that popped up. Jyllandposten said NO to the same cartoonist Christoffer Zieler in 2003 when he had made some jesus drawings. they where afraid of offending the christian community. since i believe in balance, i think they should have done the same in this situation. Then...in Norway, a christian magazine called "magasinet" published these mohammed drawings right after Jyllandposten. this has caused a similar reaction against norway. but since i dont like the press much, i think they should be fined and cover some of the cost of their doings(i'll come back to that). that being said. i preffer the newspapers in u.s. ofc i will find serious newspapers in europe too, but the tabloid papers have become so big that they are what alot of people consider news. i preffered sitting down with my paperstack LA TIMES on a sunday and read about the entire world.(might have changed some, havent been home in a while)

i do not think that a government should say sorry for something a newspaper has done, but since i dont like the press(tabloids) much, i think there should be a commission that keeps an eye on the medias and uncover either lies or fine them for instigating "news"(its become so normal that the press try to create news that is not fully based on facts) i would like to slander the press, but thats for another thread.

But i'm split on this. i have friends from all over the world and religions and after a brief talk with my producer in England, who is muslim(from a muslim and christian family) and i'm still split. on one side i completely respect any persons religion, but i do NOT respect violence. i respected middleastern countries that banned the import of danish and norwegian goods. i respect the fact that they first demanded an apology. AND i respect the fact that a government who respects freedom of speach says sorry for the situation but cannot apologize on the behalf of the newspaper. a fine yes, sorry...why should they? the government didnt release the drawings. the government stands for freedom of speach and cannot "mute" a newspaper. nor can it mute me.
and here i go the other way again. the newspapers that prints these drawings know that there will be a reaction, there is no doubt in my mind. they should have used better judgement and cannot hide behind freedom of the press in every situation they get cornered in. and the news is what this boils down to, to me. not the government that won't say they are sorry. with that said. i have through my years seen charicatures of jesus and god through the years and i think that we in the west are so used to our sarcasm, irony and comic relief in sooo many touchy details and episodes. a comedian 24 hour limit before he can start joking about a disaster.(thats their rule). this is the way that western society has worked for a very long time. we are used to this and expect others to understand our ways. shit! as u can see, im all over the place with this....i will go on

one of the very dangerous things about situations like is is that this fires up any racist, neo nazi, christian extremist in ways that will only hurt the muslims living in western society. the split will grow and regular "joe" from europe will feel stepped on and afraid of a "strange" religion causing a change in their every day life. THAT i feel is very dangerous. i know alot of people  take the burning of the norwegian consulate personal and that their country has been attacked. not all and hopefully a very small %, but still some people who are already critical will now use this as an excuse. i dont like it when people are given the excuse it only builds more ignorance and violence.

BUT! i do not like that any religious book in 2006!!!! has so much say in peoples lives. these books where written by men in a whole different world. a whole different time. we are in 2006!!!!! we dont need scare tactics anymore! i dont need to be told that i'm going to burn in hell because im not christian and women SHOULD have the freedom of not covering up because men have decided it!

give people an good education and balance in the world economy and we will see a dramatic change.

all in all.

i dont think that the danish or norwegian government should say sorry on the behalf of the newspapers. they didnt print them. but i do think its ok for the governments to say that they distance themselves from the newspapers in this case. and since they have, i think that that should have been enough.

for the newspapers. its simple. respect! if you wouldnt do it to christians, then you shouldnt do it to any religion. and for religion - bleh thats gonna take too long.  i respect religious people and leave them alone. so why on earth in 2006 am i still hearing about burning in hell and that non believers like myself are evil infidels that should die???!?!

sorry BFG, my post is all over the place. as u see im very split on this but i all boils down to respect from the press.

wow its been a while since i was here :-)

- edit, brutha was posting

"I wonder if someone could draw a nude pic of the virgin mary with a bomb between her legs and ask him to do a printing of that. I wonder if he had responded the same way."

well said brutha, no he wouldnt.

just one more thought. noone should be swayed in any direction based on fear.

[BFG]

Nice posts guys

Well my two cents on it was this. When i first heard about it i felt that muslims were more than entitled to be complaining about the cartoons. Most of them weren't even remotely funny (i must admit i laughed at the "stop stop we've run out of virgins" cartoon but then again i laugh at everything and in a way i found that cartoon very different - it was more about taking the piss out of the 'justification of violence' than insulting mohammed.

Anway. Im in very much agreement with you guys. Respect. This wasn't about 'freedom of speach' that felt to me like a pathetic cover.

However what has sickened me the most is the reaction and how a valid complaint from muslim communitys has been hijacked by this fundamentalistic hooliganism. What exactly does chanting "death to all who insult islam" going to achive? Placards glorifying 9/11 and other attacks does not win any favors.

The voice of reason, the voice that had a valid and powerful complaint that should have been heard and understood, was engulfed by the fanatical stupidity of a minority.

I don't think the goverments should appologise, they have nothing to appologise for. The newspapers on the other hand have something to answer for. That was incitment of racial hatred, not a excersise of freedom of speach. freedom of stupdidity is in great enough supply allready we don't need more.

"I wonder if someone could draw a nude pic of the virgin mary with a bomb between her legs and ask him to do a printing of that. I wonder if he had responded the same way."
.

 i couldn't agree more

[BTs_FahQ2]

The funny thing about all of this is the realization of most democratic countries for the need of the seperation of church and state. The idea of this can only work in countries where teh vast majority or almost whole are of one religion, but when they enter an era of wordly needs, they just don't seem to fit. Imagine if the democratic countries cried foul everytime they desecrated our countries by burning our flags. We look beyond this and feel it is their right to do this for whatever they are protesting. But what if we took it as personal as their religion, cut funding, imports, and all gov't ties.  The whole institutions of these countries would be decimated.  They have a very secular view of the world in how we must respect so many of their beliefs, when their understanding of ours seems just as limited.

I think a lot of things need to be reevaluated when dealing with countries of Religious leadership. They cannot be dealt with in the same manner in which we conceive as rational, it is just not working. I have no answers to this problem in that you cannot appease everyone in the world when it is their way or Death to everyone. Most Muslims outcries are for them to be left alone, i think besides the nuclear situation in Iran, i am vastly moving to this position, isolate them to live in stone age.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Institutionalized Hand/Feet chopping for stealing bread, Rubber hose whippings for those without Burkhas, Stonings for adultery and children out of wedlock, institutionalized Honor Killings of Raped family members, clitorectomies/labia removal for the women to discourage sexual pleasure, death sentences for Drugs and Beatings for unchaperoned romantic meetings, and they are THIS offended by a fucking piece of paper with some ink on it...?

What the fuck ever.
THOSE priorities aren't just a tad upside down are they?
Cheers to the media for forgetting to point this hypocrisy out.

They can BE offended for all I give a fuck....and I hope they are.

[BFG]

Woah there, this is my biggest annoyance that the moderate 'true' followers of islam who   don't scream jihhad at the site of a 4x4 have been drowned out... Someone could do one of your lists Shiex for Christianity im sure... if they picked the craziest f*cked up fundamentalists they could find.

These pieces of shit are giving islam a bad name. and they are drowned out by the rioting flag burning nutters. Please for gods sake can people remember to make a differentiation between the two.

Religious fundamentalists are united by fear. Whether they are Christian, Muslim, or Jew, fear is the common denominator. They fear change, modernization and loss of influence. They fear that the young will abandon the churches, mosques and synagogues for physical and material gratification. They fear the influence of mass media and its ability to subvert the young with song, dance, fashion, alcohol, drugs, sex and freedom. They especially fear education if it undermines the teachings of their religion. They fear a future they can’t control, or even comprehend.

These themes are as common among traditionalist Muslims as they are with traditionalist Jews and Christians. We’ve all heard the same concerns about moral decay, decadence, and the influence of the impious. These are the evils of which religious teaching warn us. These fears resonate loudest among those people who have least. For people mired in poverty, lacking hope and frustrated by political and economic systems they can neither understand or control, religion holds meaning and offers hope, at least for future salvation, if not in this world.

[Toxic::Joka]

We need to get rid of oil-dependency.. . pronto. Or atleast reduce it to a level where Norway can provide for Europe's needs.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

We were talking about the groups that were burning the embassies all over the Middle east...over a cartoon. And when you look at that list (as horrrible and inflammatory as it seems) that list is accurate.
And when you compare items that are found in  (modern) Shariah law, you will find justifications for every item in that list. And Shariah law is sweeping the middle east..and other more moderate countries as well...

And if you compare the insult to humanty from a cartoon, compared to widely held beliefs like those i listed....my point becomes clearer.

I still hope they are insulted...as insulted as I (and many others are) that their warped interpretation of the Koran is causing all the items on my list, and blind retaliation to perceived sleights and blind enforecemnt of the stilted Doctines....

That cartoon was making EXACTLY the point you highlighted BFG..that is, that Islam has been hijacked...Being a true statement, there is no insult inherent in the cartoons satire. It is an accurate assesment. 

So , do we hold back on making accurate observations becuase it will inflame the radicals? no.

[Ethion]

This says it all:

[Toxic::Joka]

 

[BTs_FahQ2]

HAHAHA,

Iran is now holding a contest for Holocaust cartoons to publish in retaliation. This is quite funny in that i can't see a bunch of Jews running out burning flags and flipping over cars because of this. In addition, the goddamn leader of Iran doesn't even believe the holocaust occured, so wtf.

I swear it's like watching a 2 year old who doesn't get his way.

[Ethion]

Haha, I agree with you Fah. It's fuckin stupid and ridicolous.

The Israelis would only say, "you just wait until we invade your asses with the americans"

[Ethion]

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Great, now the *DAMN Website is going to come under attack by outraged Muslim extremists. 

[:V:*Beast]

I'm still waiting for Mel Brooks' "History of the World Part II"...

ooops... sorry... you were talking about cartoons??

[:V: Stripes]

Thought you wanted to hear it from someone who actually lives in the country.

notice: i'm muslim myself.

I'm not fan of anything that is happening in the middle-east, it's un-acceptable and has nothing to do with ISLAM. For the cartoons it's also un-acceptable  to print such pictures of other religion, but here in denmark there is no rules for that - and i guess that is the arabian is also a bit made over - no respect for the islam. We don't need any of this bullshit, and it's not something to go freaky about, but it's something who needs a better apology from Jyllands-posted. This is a good moment for the arabian world to have an excuse, if you know what i mean? - this is pretty much getting used now, it isn't only about the cartoons. I Don't even wan't to quote Al-quaides ( dunno if it's spelled right, i don't care neither ) that Danish people should be be-headed.

Stuff that has happend in denmark after the cartoons: Saturday i was at my way home from my gf, i meet one of my friends - we do our normal talk, what were you doing yesterday etc.. then the topic all this 'cartoons' thing came up, him and some friends (muslims) ofc, has been into a way with the "NAZIs" here in denmark, since the NAZIS wanted to burn Kuran/Quran books. Such rumous doesn't help the situation, silly world - take it as a joke, and do a joke back with jesus i mean come on, we all know Mohammed is a HAWTIE.  not cause i've ever seen him:

The thing that can be done to prevent all these stuff, destroying embassy's etc..

I don't think the danish goverment should say sorry, but i think Jyllandsposten - the newspaper who printed the pictures should come with an better apology. This issue has become too big, we need peace no more of this shit. we need the...beast to stop being a noob. ah shit, i couldn't recist m8  .

Please bare with me, i was too lazy to look thru the whole post for typos.. so please don't freak out, you know who i'm talking to  .

Regards and peace,
Stripes.... die beast

[Monoman]

Did you guys read these cartoons were first printed a few months ago? No one started rioting until they were reprinted in January.

[:V: Stripes]

that's not right monoman, the pictures were printed septempter indeed. but there were people here in denmark who flipped out over it, and the arabian world wanted to have a meeting with the danish goverment but Anders Fogh Rasmussen refused.

it started after they got printed, by ' Jyllands posten '. some groups said they would bomb Jyllands posted if they didn't come up with a better apologize. that did happend a week ago.
Only after jyllandsposted got those messages about they would be bombed if they didn't apologize, only after 3 months the apologize came, that was pretty lame.

Regards,
Stripes