Stanley Tookie Williams, Crips Gang Co-Founder, Is Executed

[cookie]

In truth, if they were innocent, they would have had the guilty verdict overturned post mortem.

Operating under the assumption that we have yet to kill a person that's been found innocent is operating within the problem itself... and it's terrible logic. Just because we have yet to find that we've executed an innocent person, doesn't mean we haven't and didn't know about it... also, I doubt that we are likely to admit our mistakes in those situations, and try our best to prove ourselves wrong. That just doesn't happen! Glad to see you're brimming with such optimism though.

Anyway, you say we are dealing with fact and what is possible here... well, with human life on the line, you don't deal with what you presume to be a fact based mostly on subjective evidence, you look at every possibility. What if every court decision was upheld, and your "guilty until proven innocent" rationale killed some innocent people? Seriously, you act as if we're serving justice in a flawless system, but we're not. There is a huge margin of error, and it's pretty twisted to thing we hang entire lives on it.

In the end, the death penalty is something final, that you can't undo once you realize you've made a terrible mistake... you can't bring somebody back to life. Life in solitary, however, allows for wrongs to be undone (if they can be) and for justice to be served to the wicked. Think Count of Monte Cristo style prison, THAT'S what I've got in mind for cold blooded killers (except my prison would have no loose stones... only concrete). Of course I would never get away with it.. but hell, it would be a punishment far worse than death.
 

[BTs_FahQ2]

k, but you are arguing then that every case in the history of executions and even any case for that matter is based upon soley 100% refutible evidence. That no case with witnesses and evidence is ever right. That if 4 people saw someone kill another that we must never believe them in that all 4 might possibly be conspirators working for some alterior motive. There are capital murder cases that have irrefutible evidence. I am not saying all the cases are sound, I am just stating the facts. Do I think all people should be killed, no, but I should have to state that. You are stating that no matter what and no matter how sound the proof that we cannot kill on some assumption of tainted evidence, bad juries and a billion other things. If these arguements were allowed as plainly into all court cases the ability of our court system would cease to operation. Yes there is human error, i do not argue that, but people are not sent to death row based upon some fabulous belief that the world is against just one unlucky person who happened to have shit spouted upon them not only once in a conviction, but numerous times upon what usually is up to 30 appeals.

So now we get to the root of the problem heir in. You cannot really attack the system based upon a belief that killing a criminal is against your beliefs. this is what it always comes down to. People attack a system because they just feel it is wrong to kill a criminal based on their beliefs. It is not the system, but personal belief. But currently the system is set up because it is what the majority of the people want. If this wasnt true the death penalty would be overturned just as fast in CA as it would nationally. So if you feel killing a criminal is morally wrong, argue that, but trying to attack the system for a moral belief baffles me.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Okay, now I'm really gonna twist this one all up...

Why is it that you people on here spouting about how we shouldn't be using the death penalty are the same people who will allow a mother to murder her unborn baby?

Hmmmm?

[BTs_FahQ2]

Wouldn't you have to argue the exact opposite gs? Arent you right to life and pro-execution? I could be wrong.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Wouldn't you have to argue the exact opposite gs? Arent you right to life and pro-execution? I could be wrong.

Yes, that's why I put it up there as a question for my opposition. 

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Okay, now I'm really gonna twist this one all up...

you people on here spouting about how we shouldn't be using the death penalty are the same people who will allow a mother to murder her unborn baby?

Hmmmm?

New Frank Zappa Album...Mother Of Assumptions.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Okay, now I'm really gonna twist this one all up...

you people on here spouting about how we shouldn't be using the death penalty are the same people who will allow a mother to murder her unborn baby?

Hmmmm?

New Frank Zappa Album...Mother Of Assumptions.

Not an Assumption this time...I already know where many of the people who have posted in this thread stand on this topic.

[Ethion]

The laws in Sweden are fucked up.
The worst penelty you can get is life sentence, and there isn't alot of people who gotten that.
Rapist have pleaded to be mentally insane, so they get out a few months later raping again.
People who have murdered other people gets from 2-8 years in jail, then they get out again.

The prisons in Sweden has better food than the schools here. Which is a bit retarded.

Point being, death penelty has it good and bad sides, but if you killed a person, you should be let out a year after.

The person who killed the swedish foreign minister, pleaded that he was mentally ill. I can't really remember what happened to him, but hes didn't get that strong of punishment..

[cO.libre]

Why is it that you people on here spouting about how we shouldn't be using the death penalty are the same people who will allow a mother to murder her unborn baby?

i don't think that is a fair assumption, GS. abortion is a whole different topic. and just to tell you, i am against the death penalty and against abortion.

that would be like me assuming that the people that are for the death penalty are also for the war, etc.
i know many people that are for the death penalty and strongly disapprove of the war.
making an assumption like that is a very unfair generalization.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Why is it that you people on here spouting about how we shouldn't be using the death penalty are the same people who will allow a mother to murder her unborn baby?

i don't think that is a fair assumption, GS. abortion is a whole different topic. and just to tell you, i am against the death penalty and against abortion.

that would be like me assuming that the people that are for the death penalty are also for the war, etc.
i know many people that are for the death penalty and strongly disapprove of the war.
making an assumption like that is a very unfair generalization.

Okay, let me clarify...

I only want to hear from the people who are against the death penalty and for abortion.  I know there are some here, because I've already seen your views.  So speak up, please.  I want to know how you can justify this.

[Brutha]

When you post things like you just did GS, you sound like a drunken bully to me. Where does life begin GS? Science says one thing, religion says another thing, and there lies the problem. I'm not religious, but you are...so it will just be another endless debate, a dance around a subject where people get more and more annoyed with you and you add fuel to the fire by joking and telling us we'll all go to hell while you'll be saved no matter what you do because you believe.....call me a coward if you wish, but no more. You just killed a good debate.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

When you post things like you just did GS, you sound like a drunken bully to me. Where does life begin GS? Science says one thing, religion says another thing, and there lies the problem. I'm not religious, but you are...so it will just be another endless debate, a dance around a subject where people get more and more annoyed with you and you add fuel to the fire by joking and telling us we'll all go to hell while you'll be saved no matter what you do because you believe.....call me a coward if you wish, but no more. You just killed a good debate.

No, I simply want to know how someone can justify killing an unborn baby when they can't justify executing a murderer.  Cut and dry...I'm not trying to get into some religious debate here, I just want to know why killing on the one hand is okay, but it isn't on the other.

I'm not going to berate anyone for their views, I just want to know how anyone can think that way.

Tell you what, I'll start...

I believe the opposite...that it is wrong for a mother to kill her unborn baby and that it is okay for us to execute a murderer.  I feel this way because the murderer knew what he did was wrong, and did it anyway.  But the unborn baby has never done anything wrong it its life, and therefore doesn't deserve to die.  Why can't the mother just put the baby up for adoption?  As for the executing of the person on death row, I still say we kill them the same way they killed their victom.  Sounds a lot more like justice to me.

[Toxic::Joka]

Why is it that you people on here spouting about how we shouldn't be using the death penalty are the same people who will allow a mother to murder her unborn baby?

i don't think that is a fair assumption, GS. abortion is a whole different topic. and just to tell you, i am against the death penalty and against abortion.

that would be like me assuming that the people that are for the death penalty are also for the war, etc.
i know many people that are for the death penalty and strongly disapprove of the war.
making an assumption like that is a very unfair generalization.

Okay, let me clarify...

I only want to hear from the people who are against the death penalty and for abortion.  I know there are some here, because I've already seen your views.  So speak up, please.  I want to know how you can justify this.

That would include me.. .

Yes, I'm aggainst the deathpenalty. I don't think anyone has the right to take another humans life away, state or private person. I believe that humans are a sum of the experiences they've had during their life, some experiences leave a deeper, some leave a shallow impression. ie. Parents probably have the most influence on most people, good or bad.

Now if someone has the misfortune of being born to lousy/abusive/bad parent(s) and on top of that is ,say, met with nothing but crap from the society around them, you can't really hold them fully accountable. I'm not excusing murders, rapist etc. not by a long shot, we're still creatures with our own will and have to take responsibilty for our actions. But, I think that since (insert X-amount) of our character is defined by interaction with other people which is beyond our control; that we can't just sit back and say "Sorry pal, you failed to swim up the torrent, now die"

Then again, I've never had a close one brutally murdered, maybe experiencing that would change my view, hopefully I'll never have to find out.

As for abortion, basically I don't think that a fetus is a human yet. I don't know where the line goes, but I think that women have the right to decide over their own body, and the fetus is a part of their body. And added to that is the fact that if it's not legal, those who want to, will find less safe ways of get rid of the fetus.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

As for abortion, basically I don't think that a fetus is a human yet. I don't know where the line goes, but I think that women have the right to decide over their own body, and the fetus is a part of their body. And added to that is the fact that if it's not legal, those who want to, will find less safe ways of get rid of the fetus.

This doesn't come from any religious point of view for me, but I think that a fetus is a living thing the second that a sperm fertilizes an egg.  Therefore, that living thing should be protected by law just as any normal person would be.

See, Brutha, we can have a civilized debate about this without a bunch of name-calling. 

[BFG]

I only want to hear from the people who are against the death penalty and for abortion.  I know there are some here, because I've already seen your views.  So speak up, please.  I want to know how you can justify this.

I don't. I don't consider a small cluster of Cells to be a baby. My stance on Abortion is'nt black and white - i do think women should have the right to have an abortion up until a certain point when i believe that the cells have developed and multiplied enough for it to be considered a 'living being'

You are happy to kill a fully grown human but unhappy about the right for women to terminate a birth from the point sperm fertilizes an egg??

[Toxic::Joka]

As for abortion, basically I don't think that a fetus is a human yet. I don't know where the line goes, but I think that women have the right to decide over their own body, and the fetus is a part of their body. And added to that is the fact that if it's not legal, those who want to, will find less safe ways of get rid of the fetus.

This doesn't come from any religious point of view for me, but I think that a fetus is a living thing the second that a sperm fertilizes an egg.  Therefore, that living thing should be protected by law just as any normal person would be.

It's definately not human, for the first weeks there's nothing human about it, it's a process, a liquid-like substance . When the sperm and egg start hanging out together they start a mutation that will eventually develope in to a human, eventually.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

You are happy to kill a fully grown human but unhappy about the right for women to terminate a birth from the point sperm fertilizes an egg??

Yep, that about sums up my stance on both issues.

[BFG]

... So do you think the US should be  executing women who have an abortion then on the ground they have committed murder?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

... So do you think the US should be  executing women who have an abortion then on the ground they have committed murder?

No, because at the present time the law allows for them to do it.  But I do believe there should be laws in place that make it illegal.  If a woman doesn't protect herself enough not to get pregnant, and can not support a child, then she should put the child up for adoption.  There are millions of people in the world that would love to adopt a child who can not have one of their own.

[BFG]

No, because at the present time the law allows for them to do it

hahaha very good point. Its been a long day and im being really freaking slow tonight. think i better stop before i make myself look any more stupid.