Stanley Tookie Williams, Crips Gang Co-Founder, Is Executed

[BTs_FahQ2]

hahah, now there's a can of worms.  Should get interesting now

[BFG]

We give them a trial, find them guilty, then "humanely" execute them.

Snap!! So what exactly did you say you did differently from the chinese? ... have a trial then find them guilty then 'humanely' execute them.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Sure, if you want to disregard the "let them have their first trial (where if they are convicted) they get ONE appeal, with a different COMPETENT council...PLUS an independant review of the evidence...THEn the shooting..." part.

Lets not oversimplify so as to lump a perfectly reasonable solution with the Chinese kangaroo trials...

I can help about 2500 families with the 2 Million we waste on endless incompetent and unenthusiatic appeals...and the nearly 2 million it will cost to house then for fifty years...so thats rehabilitation and social programs for FIVE THOUSAND disenfrancised young families to PREVENT the liklihood that those kids will end up on death Row down the line...

Perfectly logical and reasonable and prudent trade..Even by liberal standards..

[c| Spetsnaz.]

The death penalty is the easy way out. What kind of punishment is being relieved of all your worldly worries? A life without freedom is worse than death.

[BTs_FahQ2]

Well at seems when they don't kill you spetz you get to write childrens books, gain a slew of ignorant supporters who claim you never commited a crime, and basically become an idiots hero.

Your right, these people are in really harsh conditions.

Truly lock them in a cell with basically shit to eat, water, a hole to shit in, no human contact and sleep standing up. Only then would I accept life without parole.  Right now they get too much to keep existing. Truly give them a shithole to live in and you would gain mass support for life in prison.  This is the current problem we have.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

I actually dont mind if its the easy way out.
At least Im not being charged for it...

Im being pragmatic here..
Prevention and Cost savings.
There nothing logical or compassionate about charging me FOUR million dollars for a lifetime murderous criminal. its always stumped me, that the ;anti' crowd wont concede that extrememly obvious point.

Im not talking about 'iffy' cases either.
I wouldnt mind strengthening the process to weed out the innocents, but once they're weeded out..let the killing commence.  Remember..PREVENTION and COST SAVINGS...

I dont view this in a moral light as it applies to the CRIMINAL..im looking at the Human rights of the law-abiding citizen population at large(and the VICTIMS)...Why punish THEM (by charging for prisoner upkeep, and education when there is no societal return?)

Blows me away ..seriously, that there is an advocacy wing about ten times larger for Criminal rights (Rights and feelings, and mercy for the truly GUILTY), then there are for victim rights (you know, the ones that suffered the brutal killings, rapes, and tortures at the hands of the criminals youre so passionately defending the dignity of)...talk about backwards reasoning.  Really..cmon now.
How much air time did that poor Vietnamese family get today? NONE.
The RACIAL betrayal of the Nobel Peace Prize nominee got all the airtime..all week.
That fucking SICKENS ME..and if you were being consistent, it would sicken you too..

Apply some of that compassion to the victims how bout? Do they deserve justice
OR the humiliation of the pseudo-civil rights three ring media circus?
How you think that family felt to see all the Media stars come out to proclaim the innoncence, Honor and Nobel worthiness of a guy that SHOTGUNNED (12 gauge, btw) their entire fucking family?
Further, Do they deserve to foot the bill to keep someone alive that took THEIR families?
It almost takes an animal to support these notions as well..

Human rights at the exlusion of logic and reason, then fails to remain a discussion on rights and dignity at all..at that point it becomes a knee-jerk reaction to the CORRECT PREMISE that Life is valuable...Yes it is...and the lives of the victims and the law abiding are FAR more valuable than the ones who disregard that value...and spit in the face of it.

Dont you think that these criminals cheapen the sincerity of your intent when they would Kill you in a heartbeat for enough money to buy more crack or support a meth habit, or becuase they THOUGHT you saw them commit a crime? You and your (truely) admirable respect for life would not mean a fuck to one of these guys committing these crimes at the time they commited them..but once caught OH ...THEN they want your compassion..and pull the heartstrings and ask Jesse and Sharpton, and Snoop Dog to come protest for them and do the media circuit...how fucking convenient.

You advocates arent insulted in the least by their CONTINUED manipulation?
Asking, no...Demanding that you call for human dignity and leniency and mercy when they showed none?

You know what kind of animal it takes to shotgun FOUR PEOPLE at CLOSE RANGE???
i mean, you go home wearing the victims brains on your clothes in that sort of act...
Mercy for that? NO FUCKING WAY..NONE>

BANG.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Responding to the idea of giving 30 days of life after the conviction and sentencing to death, how many people were found innocent well after that 30 day period?  How many innocent people would have been wrongfully executed just so we could save you a few bucks?  Is there a specific number of innocent Americans that can be executed when you will say "Oh well, at least I saved money by not paying for their lengthy incarceration before execution."

You might as well have the bailif gun down the convicted and sentenced right there in the courtroom.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

Since the real world is not 'Sheixworld', it is in fact cheaper to house a prisoner for life than to execute them, it cost roughly 6 times more to put them to death.

I believe the guilty always get what's coming to them, whether it's 10 minutes after the fact or 10 years, some shit will happen that will equalize the order of things without the meddling of mortal man.

The death penalty is wrong, if you can't see that I pity you.

Murder and violence are the cowards solutions, whether it's the government or a misguided youth, it solves nothing and perpetuates the cycle of death.

Here's a list of countries that still have the death penalty (notice the only industrialized nations on the list are the U.S. and China) Also, look up the murder rates of nations without the death penalty and contrast that to the murder rate in the United States. You'll find that the death penalty does not deter murderers, in fact you'll find that murder rates are higher in countries with the death penalty than without.

Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

[DarK.]

What is your definition of Industrialized?  Because Japan is on that list.[/size]

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Aside from not even touching the Victims rights vs Murderers rights (which is half my premise along with cost reduction and prevention of further criminality)..You went the Sheixland route. No Need.
Maybe if i hadnt seen friends and family BRUTALIZED at the hands of the sytem in favor of some fucking lowlife peice of shit that wouldn't grant YOU the mercy you claim he deserves..

in FACT..i agreed with your premise, and even pointed out that the criminals that are playing the emotional/human rights card..are manipulating YOU, into thinking that there is something noble about keeping them alive so they can watch cable, do drugs, get a law degree, and get free medical care, when their victims lives are OVER, as well as the lives of their families. Victim rights NEVER EVER get mentioned in these arguments, but tackling their advocates on some etheric moral ground is extremely common.

And for the record, the ONE AND ONLY reason it is more expensive to Execute than to warehouse,
is that they can appeal as many times as a judge will allow it. The costs are both sides, defence and prosecution, jury calling, and state wages paid for all the clerical mess that goes with unlimited appeals...warehousing of data over time, etc...ad nauseam. What again is wrong with providing a much more competent defense, and Discovery process the first time? Tell me how using INDEPENDANT council, not either paid by the state, or by foreclosing on the accused family homes, (belonging to mothers fathers and grandparents..) is so much more inneffective or inhumane than public defenders that generally AGREE in the guilt of their clients, and provide LUKEwarm defences at best?... that whats in place.

And as for all those innocents you think will get executed? well, that is SOLELY due to incompetent defence...which is supplied by the state. And ok, so you dont like 30 days..fine...Defence has one year (even TWO) to prove their case. NOT THIRTY..you talk about costs of executing people..it comes from  thrity years of appeals..No one is served by that crap...at all. If thirty days was your true objection, the new time frame should be acceptable to you....remeber, we are providing well paid, enthusiastic competent defence..not some first year law school retread..that cannot wait to get home to see the game...and believes his client is guilty anyways, not deserving of a fair trial.

Im appealing for a MUCH more stringent first process..and ONE viable effective appeal effort. Nothing whatsoever immoral about that...Its not prudent to disregard a viable and more humane appeal process alternative, simply becuase you think im evil for not saying the death penalty is wrong. Im saying that theres much more wrong with the process than just the death process.and as long as poeople refuse to ackowldge some of these simple realities, and keep it all in the realm of the moral..noting wil ever be re-evaluated.

i specifically alluded to the sincerity and worth of your premise that life is valuable, simple so you could see that im ATTEMPTING to cede your points while disagreeing with you. That agreement prevents me from calling your well-thought out views...Spetzland...or saying that i pity you. Dont pity someone who agrees with your premise but disagrees with the ends. I do pity the families that have no advocates for THEIR suffering while everyone is arguing the morality of what happens to their murderers and rapists, arguing that those lives are more important than those already lost at the hands of violence and greed.....thats whats EXTREMELY tragic..and if you cant see THAT, well then the pity party is a two way street.

Most are defended by court apponted and NON motivated and POORLY paid defenders.
I say some of that money that the taxpayers put out on those MANY trials...(which are almost entirely unneffective due to lack of enthusiasm and incompetence), be placed with competent and motivated defenders, with staffing for adequate evidentiary review. And once guilt is firmly established...the needs and rights of the many takes precedence. Cost control, and (repeat) crime control. Im not claiming it works to prevent OTHER criminals, but death will stop those criminals in their tracks. Im for that.

Im Not seeing how that isnt seen as a viable alternative to the weak 'court appointed' system we have in place.  And no need to pity me..like i said, im not approaching this with a moral agenda. Its not my job ...But i can say with certainty that there IS a viable alternative to the TORTURE that the families are put through over the course of the many appeals...but again..the Victims never seem to matter..nor their feelings.

Like i said, i dont believe that the Death penalty deters crime, but it totally stops re-offenders.

And stopping the thirty year appeal process saves the state, and by extension, me, Billions of dollars for educaction and crime prevention (which i would have presumed youd agree with becuase it would educate and rehabilitate at risk youth to prevent them from ending up with their predecessors)..But again, in favor of an insulting take on my views, this was totally disregarded.

[Brutha]

I'm just curious, how many innocent people have been executed? How does that effect your sentiment towards the death penalty?

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

How many innocent pepole would be sentenced to life without parole if the death penalty were abolished?

The number is exactly the same.

[cookie]

Well at seems when they don't kill you spetz you get to write childrens books, gain a slew of ignorant supporters who claim you never commited a crime, and basically become an idiots hero.

Yeah, and when they DO kill you, you become a martyr.

[BTs_FahQ2]

Brutha, I stated this earlier. No man who has been executed has been found to be innocent after the fact. But, people who have been sentenced to death have been found innocent. So the system at it's current state is working.

Murder and violence are the cowards solutions, whether it's the government or a misguided youth, it solves nothing and perpetuates the cycle of death.

I'm just curious spetz, what is the manly or "brave" solution.  Since bravery is the opposite of cowardice. So it is brave to let a murderer live and to carry on a somewhat normal life in a cell then to make him pay for erradicating life?

You'll find that the death penalty does not deter murderers, in fact you'll find that murder rates are higher in countries with the death penalty than without.

This is by far a false correlation.  It is true the death penalty is not a deterrant, but incarceration is not either.  Basically people kill no matter what. It just so happens we have so many killings because the means in the US is easier; ie: guns, weapons and our cultural acceptance of violence popularized by the media, movies and music. You reap what you sow. But to let them live is a travesty to the families of the victims and a reward for the criminal.

[DarK.]

How many innocent pepole would be sentenced to life without parole if the death penalty were abolished?

The number is exactly the same.

but if they find out they are innocent during life in prison then they get out... we cant dig up a dead person.[/size]

[BTs_FahQ2]

But Dark, it has yet to happen. So, you are arguing what is possible and not fact.

[Brutha]

Actually Fah, I'm not bying that no innocent people have been excecuted. I read something about that in a news paper over here a few days ago. I'll do a search on the internet when I got more energy...just finished my last exam 2 hours ago, so my brain is empty.

[BTs_FahQ2]

haha no worries, find the artice when you can and I shall rebute

[DarK.]

Released nationally from death rows because of innocence since 1971: 113
Total number of people executed between 1976 and May 3, 2004: 909
Number of people executed for every person released for innocence: 8.44
At least 23 people this century have been executed and later found innocent according to Michael Radelet and Hugo Adam Bedau in their book entitled Inspite of Innocence.

http://www.geocities.com/gfadp/innocent.htmlhttp://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/
Some facts to ponder Fah
According to "deathpenaltyinfo" 1 in 8 (thats 12.5%) were innocent.

I AM NOT arguing against or for the death penalty, I just thought I should show these facts.[/size]

[BTs_FahQ2]

hahah, what you posted was a list of "compelling evidence" supporting their possible evidence.  In truth, if they were innocent, they would have had the guilty verdict overturned post mortem.  Albeit worthless, it would have to be done by law. In addition this evidence is posted by a anti execution group. Also if you read this "report" most cite lawyer incompetence, that could be anything. These are all opinion based arguments but not actual facts, most of this stuff is legal technical mumbo jumbo.  The same stuff that they tried to get tookie freed with.

The Radelet and Bedau book I have experience with. A lot of what they write about is how there were legal technicalities that could and maybe should have kept a guilty verdict from being passed, but they hardly sit there and refute most of the evidence with hard evidence. Basically a bunch of what ifs that is most murders defences. Same as OJ, put up enough defences that have no correlation with each other and eventually one can be seen as fact.

Also in legal schools the book is basically considered a sided piece of bad writing. It does contain some serious insight into technical problems that go on in law cases, but the book is considered trash because of the way they cite the terminology of cases and the factual numbers they produce. I can cite more into this if you like but it gets wordly technical. Erm, maybe google has a better way to put it then i do.
So i reiterate, no person has been put to death who has later been found guilty, only guilty people on death row have been found innocent.