Mentally Ill Man claiming to be carrying a bomb is shot by US Air Marshal

[bronto]

i liked the way they went ahead with blowing up his luggage anyway

[jerkasaur]

It's a shame they killed him, but the Air Marshals did their job.

Righto.  Its a shame they had to kill him, but honestly I know I am going to feel safer flying to Cali next month knowing that airmarshals are still around.[/size]

Really dark? Now that Homeland Security is in place you feel safer? Lets see, the first time the Airmarshalls actually did something, they shot an innocent man 3 times as his wife was screaming that he was metally ill, and that makes you feel safe? If they sprinkled some crack on him, and called him a drug dealer you probably say rood ridance hu?

Yeah, and if he had actually had a bomb, and detonated it right outside of the airplane, he could have still killed people!  The Air Marshall did exactly what he was supposed to do and should be PRAISED for his actions!  Mentally ill or not, you say you have a bomb anywhere near an airport these days and you are gonna get shot.  Period.  End of discussion.

And thats somehow ok with you? Think about it GS, what a horrible fucking thing to have happen. It's dubious whether or not anyone actually heard him say anything about having a bomb, so we have a mentaly ill guy - who was fucking innocent lets not forget, shot by some bored cops with itchy trigger fingers. If your gonna fucking bomb a plane, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU RUN OFF OF IT.

If this type of shit is ok in your book GS, then I'm sure you wont object when they start giving all cops machine guns, and pull 3 tiered walls around around the borders. You probably wouldn't have any reason to be scared because you follow the law and you never do anything 'wrong'. OH WAIT, NEITHER WAS THIS GUY. When the cops shoot you, don't expect many people to be empathetic. Period. End of discussion.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

If this type of shit is ok in your book GS, then I'm sure you wont object when they start giving all cops machine guns, and pull 3 tiered walls around around the borders. You probably wouldn't have any reason to be scared because you follow the law and you never do anything 'wrong'. OH WAIT, NEITHER WAS THIS GUY. When the cops shoot you, don't expect many people to be empathetic. Period. End of discussion.

Dude, an Air Marshal tells you to drop to the ground with a gun pointed at you, you FUCKING DO IT!  If you don't, you get shot.  It's not the Air Marshall's fault he didn't know the guy was legitimately messed up in the head...his only thought is protecting the lives of the passengers.  Hind-sight is pretty nifty, isn't it...it is sad that the guy didn't have a bomb and that he was mentally screwed up at the time...but you can't just say that he shouldn't have been shot...if he did have a bomb, what would you be saying right now if that Air Marshall hadn't shot him, and he blew up the plane from outside?  Bet you'd have a different story then...

Something like..."that damn Air Marshall didn't do his job!  He should go to jail for letting all those people get killed when he could have just shot the guy that was running and wouldn't get on the ground when told to do so!"  Yeah, nice thing about hind-sight.

Oh, one more thing...mentally ill people kill people too.  Ever think about that?

[DarK.]

1: BFG - I hope so too, but I would abide with what I was told to do when a gun is put in my face.  Not saying its his fault he couldnt, but just saying that I would.

2: Jerk - Wtf dude?  Since when did you hate me?  Its like GS said, "If he had had a bomb" you would be painting a whole different picture.  I already said its sad that he died, but the Air Marshall did his/her job.  Btw, if you heard someone on a plane say I've got a bomb, really loud, so everyone heard, would you start screaming?  Or be a little to hectic to think through what others are screaming?  I'm not saying that's what happened, but the Air Marshall may have never heard the wife.

1 more thing jerk, Im not sure if yelling "I've got a bomb" in an Airplane is against the law, but if someone did it on the plane I was in as a joke (no, I dont think this guy was joking) or even if they were mentally ill, I would think (if it was a joke) thats not funny, that guy should never ride a plane again, and have legal charges brought against him.  Its sad that he was bi-polar, but some times bad things happen to people.  Its unfortunate that his condition made him say that.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Id like to point out the list of extremly unfortunate things regarding this case.
Mix all of them together and you get a muddy soup thats too thick to see thru, and it makes friends yell over each other over core beliefs about mentall illness, homeland security, and terrorism.

We're all approaching this from different angles, and somehow, ending up at odds with each other over core values..(most of which are correct in their implication)

the lesson in life thats coming to mean the most to me right now, at my advanced age..is that EVERYTHING has its paradox.
Perhaps thats where the wisdom of the Buddhists comes in handy. (ie, letting go of your core beliefs..or the negative consequence of your clinging to these beliefs as the ultimate definer of your person)
Tragedy is steeped in blessing, and Evil, to the "Other", is purity.
So to judge any circumstances, is to tie yourself to only ONE half of humanity.

If (and ONLY if) we had the ability to see the REAL truth behind every circumstance we would know how to come down on this instance....but we cant, so basically, what decides where we stand, is where our advocacy lies. And that is inadequate to objectively assign blame, or responsibility.

Thru one lens, advocating for the metally ill, you can draw the conclusion that this was an entirely UN-justified shooting. A tragedy, and example of overkill. That advocate willl take issue with anyone who might be looking at the issue thru the passengers or Air Marshall's side...(for whom SAFETY is the issue of advocacy)

Through  the other lens, you have people who advocate for complete air safety, and supremacy of LAW. You cant run around claiming to have a bomb if you want to live, and Like GS said, when you are ordered to stop..you MUST stop. An air marshall does not have the diagnostic tools to determine whether the suspect is a hapless victim, desperate idealogue, or pathological bomber.
There are reasons why he would be shot even while off the plane..if IN FACT he went for his bag after claiming he had a bomb (although im not accepting this story wholesale) then they have every right to assume he is running off the plane to use a detonator to set off the bomb (it is ALLEGED ) that he had..

NOW..the important part...we dont KNOW FOR A FACT, how any of this went down (ie whether he actually Claimed to HAVe a bomb, or whther he was shot down while escaping during a panic attack), so we must be advanced to consider the possibilty of any of these outcomes or circumstances so we can maturely recognize the legitimacy of BOTH points of view. (and view the official account with a healthy skepticims, while being willing to consider that it is correct.) And check our anger at those who assume it went contrary to what WE believe...  Initially, i was only thinking of the safety factors...now im not so sure.

Sure, pure empathy makes for a boring forum, but it also shows that you are able to CONSIDER the possibilities that we may NOT be sure of...Pure empathy makes it hard to determine your own true views on things sometimes, but it helps view the world in a much more objective, understanding manner.  Not being tied firmly to the advocacy for the mentally ill, allows you to sympathise with the Air Marshall that now has to live with  he fact that he shot an innocent man (and he is a pricipled man, this WILL haunt him and link his fate somehow..to the wifes)..and it also allows those who advocate for the marshalls to feel sincere sorrow for the wife of a man who was innocent, sick, and now dead.

There is tragedy all around without the need to bash one side or the other,
when in reality both stances are perfectly legitimate.

[jerkasaur]

Dude, an Air Marshal tells you to drop to the ground with a gun pointed at you, you FUCKING DO IT!  If you don't, you get shot.  It's not the Air Marshall's fault he didn't know the guy was legitimately messed up in the head...his only thought is protecting the lives of the passengers.  Hind-sight is pretty nifty, isn't it...it is sad that the guy didn't have a bomb and that he was mentally screwed up at the time...but you can't just say that he shouldn't have been shot...if he did have a bomb, what would you be saying right now if that Air Marshall hadn't shot him, and he blew up the plane from outside?  Bet you'd have a different story then...

Something like..."that damn Air Marshall didn't do his job!  He should go to jail for letting all those people get killed when he could have just shot the guy that was running and wouldn't get on the ground when told to do so!"  Yeah, nice thing about hind-sight.

Oh, one more thing...mentally ill people kill people too.  Ever think about that?

Oh ya hindsight is pretty damn niffty. It's from fucking hindsight that we as a people are able to tell right from fucking wrong. I'm not condeming the airmarshalls, I agree, they were "just doing their job." That however assumes that we are now giving all athority figures the benefit of the doubt, but take a step back for a momment.

What if they didn't actually hear him say anything about a bomb? What if they profiled him as soon as he got on the plane? They say that he had his backpack in front of them and was acting nervously (as a bipolar man off of his meds is known to do). They confronted him, he freaked out, and they FUCKING SHOT HIM. How were they supposed to know he wasn't a terrorist? He certainly looked like one.

When was the last time you went to an airport GS? Did you have every fucking inch of you checked? Backpack, scanned. Shoes removed and scanned. Patted Down. ETC. How the fuck is a guy going to get through security with a bomb in a backpack on his chest?

"but you can't just say that he shouldn't have been shot"

Oh yes I fucking can. If I went around shooting random people because they creeped me out, it would not only be COMPLETELY WRONG, but I would be thrown in jail and or executed. But if a cop does it you criticise me for having some hindsight? You fucking conservatives talk about morality and traditional values, but when it actually effects peoples lives, you'd rather just let everyone else fry.

2: Jerk - Wtf dude?  Since when did you hate me?  Its like GS said, "If he had had a bomb" you would be painting a whole different picture.  I already said its sad that he died, but the Air Marshall did his/her job.  Btw, if you heard someone on a plane say I've got a bomb, really loud, so everyone heard, would you start screaming?  Or be a little to hectic to think through what others are screaming?  I'm not saying that's what happened, but the Air Marshall may have never heard the wife.

1 more thing jerk, Im not sure if yelling "I've got a bomb" in an Airplane is against the law, but if someone did it on the plane I was in as a joke (no, I dont think this guy was joking) or even if they were mentally ill, I would think (if it was a joke) thats not funny, that guy should never ride a plane again, and have legal charges brought against him.  Its sad that he was bi-polar, but some times bad things happen to people.  Its unfortunate that his condition made him say that.[/size][/color]

Don't worry Dark, I dont hate you. But the lack of outrage here, and even acceptance (and support) of a situation which flies directly in the face of the values the we are taught that America embodies is fucking disgusting. The problem Dark is that, no one else heard him saying he had a bomb as he ran down the jetway. You think it's above the police in this country to make of some shit to justify killing people?

I think it's kind of funny how this story has evolved to justify the police's actions. First it was that they overheard him mubble something about a bomb. Then, today, it's him running down the jet screaming that he had a bomb. Which of these justifies shooting someone more?

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Yeow.

That post perfectly illustrates the point of my prior post.

Problem is we cant POSSIBLY know EXACTLY how it went down,
so all this anger is utterly wasted.
Problem is, we likely WONT find out either...

Therefore making some attempt to see thru the other guys eyes is whats prudent here.
Not yelling, not bringing the conservative/liberal thing...not saying good riddence..and not saying he was shot with absolutely no reason...well at least with not that much attachment.

Its like going out on a limb and getting personal over an unknowable hypothetical.
Yes we'll have conflicting witness statements, yes the Marshalls will stick to their story.
No cameras with sound..and well NEVER know...for sure.
The breakdown of the possiblity that we are arguing the incorrect position is 1:2
50/50 aint enough certaintly to start a fight like this over.

(which in full disclosure: I am 100% guilty of ALL of the above))

[cookie]

"It's the crazy people who end up DETONATING bombs on planes in the first place"

This is probably one of the most grevious errors in American thinking about terrorism. Crazy people dont build and detonate bombs.

Really, that's probably one of the most grievous errors in human thinking about ANYTHING. Come on, it takes a crazy person to want to build a bomb and kill hundreds of people in the first place. Take the unabomber for example. The guy mailed random people he had never met before, and planted explosives on a plane once that by all means should have exploded, but luckily did not. He did all this, whilst living in a shack in Montana and writing his 66 page thesis. Granted, there are crazy crazy people and crazy smart people, but they're all nuts, just the same.

Also, are you implying that when people start talking about how they've got a bomb at an airport, that they shouldn't be taken seriously, because they're just obviously stupid/insane? Not every person out to hurt people is cunning and totally cognizant of what they're doing. Unfortunately, sometimes it ends up being the people who can't help doing it, i.e. schizophrenics and bipolar people.

I'm got a better idea - the undercover airmarshals, saw a non-white guy, kinda suspicious looking (remember, being non white in America is a euphmism for suspicious) and ::possibly:: overheard him mubble somthing about a bomb. The confront him, he's mentally ill and he freaks out, starts running because he doesn't know what the fuck is going on. They shoot and kill him and you all accept that as legitimate?

Honestly, what is an Air Marshal supposed to do in that situtation? Stop and think "wait a minute, what if this is just some poor crazy man who's just kidding around!" YOU DON'T GAMBLE WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES LIKE THAT. A few moments of speculation could cost hundreds of people their lives, and when the guy is reaching into the bag he supposedly said he has a bomb in, were they supposed to let him do it?

Also, it seems to me that a lot of you commenting here seem to be of the idea that this man, in a bout of confusion, sprinted off the airplane only to be gunned down by trigger-happy air marshals. Reading these articles, I don't get a sense of any hastiness at all. The timeline I'm gleaning from all this is that first, they confronted him on the plane, at which point he proceeded to bolt out into the concourse. In a CBS article, says the AMS spokesperson, "Mr. Alpizar was told to drop his bag. He kept approaching the federal air marshals ... He reached to the bag, started approaching the federal air marshals again," at which point they shot him. It seems to me that they gave Alpizar quite a few opportunities to comply.

When was the last time you went to an airport GS? Did you have every fucking inch of you checked? Backpack, scanned. Shoes removed and scanned. Patted Down. ETC. How the fuck is a guy going to get through security with a bomb in a backpack on his chest?

It's also excellent use of logic to assume the TSA is competent, with a 100% success rate. Hopefully I don't offend anyone here in saying that most of those people are total morons. Last spring break I got through 3 security checkpoints with a hunting knife I randomly picked up on the ground and forgot about. I stuffed it in the OUTER NETTING of my backpack, in plain sight, and nobody, not one person, picked up on it. A huge ass knife, at that. And what's to say the guy didn't have a sophisticated type of bomb they didn't expect? Once again, these situations leave no margin of error.


Finally, why was a man this sick flying aboard a plane in the first place? Seriously, what a day to forget to take your medicine. I don't mean that people with mental illnesses shouldn't be allowed to fly or anything, it's just that it strikes me as pretty irresponsible to be traveling in a situation where you can easily get in trouble, when you know that you are capable of totally losing control like he did. People on airplanes aren't equipped to handle stuff like that, when you're on high alert 24/7 as it is, just waiting for the next fundamentalist to get on your plane and try to steer it into a building.

Anyway, on the other hand, I do feel really terrible that an innocent man lost his life. It was a tragic thing to have happened, and hopefully as they investigate more into it, we'll find out why he did what he did and the exact circumstances of the situation.

Good discussion, everybody.

[BFG]

Bloody hell hold your horses folks, i said this right at the beginning and others have said it since we don't know exactly what happend

By the way i think a lot of people are overlooking the concept of 'mental illness'. It is by the very nature of the name an illness of your mental state. Ie you don't necessarily think along the same paths as everyone else. You can't say "hey this mentally ill guy should have thought, hey im mentally ill i better be carfull to take my med if im going to fly today, afterall i don't want to get shot by an air marshal"

it takes a crazy person to want to build a bomb and kill hundreds of people in the first place

Oh baby I love that quote. I want to hang it up and frame it and just make you all discuss this quote on the forum and nothing else.

IF it takes a crazy person to want to build a bomb to kill hundreds of people, what kind of person wants to create a war to kill hundreds of thousands of people?


One last thing. When the tragic shooting of the brazilian, Jean Charles de Menezes took place the day after the london tube bombings, there was Nationwide shock and horror. There was a inquiry (which a lot of people do not accept) and the implications were huge. This was an innocent man who was shot at point blank range. Nobody said "oh dear oh well he might have been a bomber, it can't be helped"

Your dealing with a persons life. Have some f*cking compassion. Perhaps if people had a little more compassion and empathy in this world the place wouldn't be so completely fucked up. And don't even get me started on the speech Harold Pinter gave when accepting his Nobel Prize for literature.. And no if your american your not going to like it, or a fan of Tony Blair for that matter.

[cookie]

By the way i think a lot of people are overlooking the concept of 'mental illness'. It is by the very nature of the name an illness of your mental state. Ie you don't necessarily think along the same paths as everyone else. You can't say "hey this mentally ill guy should have thought, hey im mentally ill i better be carfull to take my med if im going to fly today, afterall i don't want to get shot by an air marshal"

If that thought didn't occur to him it certaintly should have to his wife. Having been with the man for 22 years, she should know fairly well how he thinks and reacts to thinks when he's off his meds.

IF it takes a crazy person to want to build a bomb to kill hundreds of people, what kind of person wants to create a war to kill hundreds of thousands of people?

Reading that, I assume you read my post thinking that I'm a right wing war supporter or something, and I assure you, you are wrong on that count. So I don't really understand why you're asking me that question. But whatever, I'll take the bait.

You're right, it would be crazy for somebody to just create a war out of thin air to kill thousands of people, but the wars that take place today are not random. They have their reasons and their ulterior motives, and if they prove successful, the person who initiated it all gets all the credit, glory, and/or whatever huge benefit he/she was looking for in the first place. Tell me, what is crazy about that? It's heartless, bloodthirsty, immoral and cruel... but it's not illogical. Plus, it's not like its their asses out there. Yes, how someone could conceive of doing something so totally fucked up is crazy to you and i, but it makes perfect animal sense.

This was an innocent man who was shot at point blank range. Nobody said "oh dear oh well he might have been a bomber, it can't be helped"

From what I understand, London police cornered Menezes, and while he was laying on the ground, shot him in the head five times. Somehow I don't think that's as comparable to this situation as you think. If the man had got down on the ground and complied with air marshals, I have reason to suspect they would not have shot him in the head five times afterwards, or at all, for that matter.

[BFG]

Reading that, I assume you read my post thinking that I'm a right wing war supporter or something, and I assure you, you are wrong on that count. So I don't really understand why you're asking me that question. But whatever, I'll take the bait.

Nono that wasn't a question pointed at you specifically cookie by any stretch of the imagination.

[BTs_FahQ2]

Well whether or not you know it or claim to just ignore it.  Many countries since 9-11 and various other terrorist attacks have orders to shoot for the head or the base of the neck to nulify the threat of a bomb explosion. So anyone in a public place that screams "i have a bomb" won't really have he chance to do much if one of these trained personnel are around to do something about it.  Basically a lot of law enforcement or security agencies have placed sharpshooters in high profile areas to do just this, whether or not you are joking or not.  Hell, I can even tell you Disneyland has such people.

The point being, take out the "bomber" and save lives, or worry if the person is lying and risk lives. Whether or not you think the death of another human is right or wrong, better him then me if he really had one.  And yes, many people in the middle east scream, "bomb", "here i come heaven", "praise be to allah" and all other kinds of crazy mumbo jumbo before they detonate. True it was bad that he was mentally ill, but what kind of wife doesn't force her significant other to take his medication in a situation where he is in the public when she clearly says he gets all crazy when off his meds.  Fuck, she needs to take more responisibility then the marshall who shot him or the ill man who screamed bomb.

[BFG]

True, in the case of the London shooting, Menezes was basically excecuted at point blank range as he was pinned back. The aim was to eliminate the apparent bomber  without risk of inadvertantly detonating the bomb or giving him the chance to detinate the bomb - ie the reason they didn't shoot to disable. I find it hard to quite comprehend those final moments.

The complete fuck up of that case is sickoning. the Reaction wasn't normal to Police or SO19 training, and there is a lot of suspicion that SF were involved becasue of the 'style' of events.

[jerkasaur]

Well whether or not you know it or claim to just ignore it.  Many countries since 9-11 and various other terrorist attacks have orders to shoot for the head or the base of the neck to nulify the threat of a bomb explosion. So anyone in a public place that screams "i have a bomb" won't really have he chance to do much if one of these trained personnel are around to do something about it.  Basically a lot of law enforcement or security agencies have placed sharpshooters in high profile areas to do just this, whether or not you are joking or not.  Hell, I can even tell you Disneyland has such people.

The point being, take out the "bomber" and save lives, or worry if the person is lying and risk lives. Whether or not you think the death of another human is right or wrong, better him then me if he really had one.  And yes, many people in the middle east scream, "bomb", "here i come heaven", "praise be to allah" and all other kinds of crazy mumbo jumbo before they detonate. True it was bad that he was mentally ill, but what kind of wife doesn't force her significant other to take his medication in a situation where he is in the public when she clearly says he gets all crazy when off his meds.  Fuck, she needs to take more responisibility then the marshall who shot him or the ill man who screamed bomb.

Maybe we need to be giving the wife the benfit of the doubt when it comes to her husband and his meds. There are a lot (and I mean A LOT) of possible reasons why he didn't have them, and many of those reasons don't add up to negligence on the part of the victim here.

Here are some examples -

The customs officialls in Equador confiscate his medications when he enters the country
He has to stay longer then expected and no local pharmacies carry his medication
His pills got lost
etc

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Well whether or not you know it or claim to just ignore it.  Many countries since 9-11 and various other terrorist attacks have orders to shoot for the head or the base of the neck to nulify the threat of a bomb explosion. So anyone in a public place that screams "i have a bomb" won't really have he chance to do much if one of these trained personnel are around to do something about it.  Basically a lot of law enforcement or security agencies have placed sharpshooters in high profile areas to do just this, whether or not you are joking or not.  Hell, I can even tell you Disneyland has such people.

The point being, take out the "bomber" and save lives, or worry if the person is lying and risk lives. Whether or not you think the death of another human is right or wrong, better him then me if he really had one.  And yes, many people in the middle east scream, "bomb", "here i come heaven", "praise be to allah" and all other kinds of crazy mumbo jumbo before they detonate. True it was bad that he was mentally ill, but what kind of wife doesn't force her significant other to take his medication in a situation where he is in the public when she clearly says he gets all crazy when off his meds.  Fuck, she needs to take more responisibility then the marshall who shot him or the ill man who screamed bomb.

Maybe we need to be giving the wife the benfit of the doubt when it comes to her husband and his meds. There are a lot (and I mean A LOT) of possible reasons why he didn't have them, and many of those reasons don't add up to negligence on the part of the victim here.

Here are some examples -

The customs officialls in Equador confiscate his medications when he enters the country
He has to stay longer then expected and no local pharmacies carry his medication
His pills got lost
etc

Guys, from the point of view of the Air Marshall, he did what he had to do.  He saw a threat, and eliminated the threat.  If the guy had really had a bomb, you would be singing a different story.  Point being, the Air Marshall HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING that the man didn't have a bomb.  I expect that the next person that goes running crazy through an airplane, reaching into a bag, not dropping to the ground when told to, will get shot just the same as this guy did.  It's the ONLY course of action.[/size]

[BFG]

Guys, from the point of view of the Air Marshall, he did what he had to do.  He saw a threat, and eliminated the threat.  If the guy had really had a bomb, you would be singing a different story.  Point being, the Air Marshall HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING that the man didn't have a bomb.  I expect that the next person that goes running crazy through an airplane, reaching into a bag, not dropping to the ground when told to, will get shot just the same as this guy did.  It's the ONLY course of action.

It wasn't the only course of action before there were armed marshals on board.
There seems to be a growing difference between what passengers have told the media initially and what the 'official' statement is regarding the claim of having a bomb - that is a concern.
The question is exactly what information did they have when they decided to shoot this guy - we don't know what information they had... officially he was running up and down the isle shouting that he had a bomb in his bag - yet from reports from passengers they didn't hear a thing like that.  - that is a concern.

These guys are in an impossible situation. If this had been a bomber and they had failed to act many would have seen them as the cause for the resulting loss of life. But at the same time nobody (i would hope) wants to shoot an innocent person.

A lot of this kinda links into our other discussion regarding torture... what extent people are willing to go to cause harm to another in order to prevent possible harm to themselves.

We can't really 'judge' a lot of this though without clearer knowledge of what has happened... Has anyone heard anymore information about what exactly took place?

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

The discrepancey between marshall accounts and witness acts is making news here.

Of course..the official line will be that he 'muttered it' while he ran past them..under his breath..where no one else could hear.

Which means..he likely never said it at all.

Sooo fucking sad.

HAD he ACTUALLY said that stuff tho and ACTUALLY reached for his bag after saying it...'Guns Free" i say..Ill or not.

But this? I just dont fucking buy it now...
Im leaning to the theory that they shot down some poor guy (innocent of saying ANYTHING about any bomb) in the throes of a massive panic attack.

SHIT!