The Political Slot: "Torture and the Terrorist"

[BFG]

Bargh im suffering from a lack of Political discussion in the GG... so i thought id stir divulge some views on some notable recent issues that folk might be interested in sharing their views on...

First up, and i would have thought given the recent coverage one rather high on most peoples 'news views' is the arguments going on around the alleged use of the CIA in transporting suspected terrorists from the US and other countries around the world to less 'reputable' countries where secret detention camps have been set up. The moving of suspects to countries in the far east etc basically to enable the use of torture techniques on these suspects is another matter but a pretty horrible on at that.

US Secretary of State (that lovely lady Ms Rice) is over in Germany at the mo i believe meeting the new German Chanceller, apparently she hasn't exactly been overwhelming in her disclosure of information regarding these actions...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4499648.stm 

Looks like the UK has f*cked itself in the ass again by possibly basically allowing this to take place - breaching a whole shit load of laws... Great

Front page of the Guardian in the UK today had photographs of some of these 'ghost plans' ran by front companies of the CIA... no idea what exactly they were doing or what or who was on board but no surprises there!

Ok so lets say this has been happening. Obviously something is going on - what exactly we don't know so its inpossible to judge. But if this process of "rendition" or rather kidnapping drugging and transportation of suspects around the world to face detention, interregation and possibly tourture, has been going on - didn't it occur to the people doing this that far from strenghening the fight against terrorism it is having quite the reverse effect? - that disregarding human rights etc and behaving in such a way is simply adding fuel to the fire of those alledged terrorists?

Next up. Actually there are to but they link quite nicely...Well i was going to talk about the new sign for the International RedCross (needed because of problems with the israeli redcross using its own sign (the star of david) and refusing to use the international sign. The international Redcross won't allow this (understandably due to the nature of the recognition by the Geneva convention of these symbols only) which the US decided was persecuting the Israeli redcross... and so it goes on. Anway a new internationally recognised sign for the Redcross is being suggested... lots more info in a more comprehensible form here

second up... The question is why the hell has the world done so little in responce to the horrific earthquake in Pakistan/India ? Not long ago New Orleans suffered pretty bad - and everyone rushed to help to what turned out to be a disaster a fraction of the scale of what has happend in Pakestan etc. Articals have suggested a 'disaster exhaustion' syndrome that after this year people are just worn out from these huge catastrophies that demand so much aid and relief (starting the year off with the Tsunami of course) But the fact remains that in comparision to disasters a fraction of the scale, the 1st world countries have done nothing significant to help the hundreds of thousands of people in Kashmir Pakistan and (but not so much) India now staving and freezing to death as the winter hits them.

ooh Tapes finnished, back to work.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Sorry, I'm no longer allowed to voice my political views on this forum.

Coincidentally, the political talk in this forum has pretty much died without my warped input these last few months. 

[BFG]

Oh crap allrighty GS... how about digging around the web for some interesting articles related to some of this stuff that we might browse over?

Oh and...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/05/politics/05cnd-rice.html?ex=1291438800&en=32632bc6be718023&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

i loved this bit:

The administration's secret detention policy has come under attack from the United Nations, the European Union and Democrats in Washington.

In Congress, Democrats are calling for an investigation of the prisons and the treatment of suspects held there, while Republicans are pushing for an investigation to determine who in the government leaked the information to the news media.

Now thats what i call a classic case for a difference of adjenda. Concerns of secrecy on the one side, concers for human rights and accountability on the other.

[bronto]

chuck norris' favorite vegetable is terry schiavo.

fucking israel always acting like little bitches...waa we want a country, waa we want the gaza strip and the west bank, waaa we want the star of david. stfu already crybabies america already gave you everything....here's a new idea: while we're supposedly helping iraq stand on their own two feet, let's do the same for israel...take back all our tanks and stop allowing their spies to not be punished.

[BFG]

Woah there Bronto dives of the deep end (and finds the pool is empty heh)

Kinda got sidetracked with the whole Israel and the RedCross thing there (not to mention the supid responce that not allowing them to do what they wanted was 'persecution') but there was actually good stuff there - ie their willingness to use the new symbol in the terrotries and working with the Palestinians.

- didnt get the iraq reference, sorry plz eplain!

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

OK, well.....
Some interesting facts to ponder on the Asian Earthquake stuff..
I'll maybe get to the Condi stuff later.

Ill preface this by reminding you, that we are talking about Pakistan..who is actively hiding BinLaden, and preventing an all out effort from the US at his capture..while handily providing All non US media the chance to bash the fact that we have NOT caught him yet. A country that refuses access to the regions where BinLaden and cohorts are hiding, while at the same time, badgering us about our lack of response to the earthquake....Anyone see the fuckin irony here?

Lets not overlook the incidents of Rocket attacks from pakistani hardliners against US Chinooks who were attempting to provide the aid that Pakistan was complaining that we WERENT providing. Go figure.

Ok, DESPITE that tidbit...Ill let you know what the US has done in the FACE of the fact that Pakistan harbours our Number One enemy actively..and willfully.

Im sure you all will be surprised at how utterly selfish America has proven to be...
(i would LOVe to compare these numbers against the aid offerings of ANY other western country in the entire free world)
I bet it would be enlightening.

• About 875 U.S. servicemembers are flying missions and providing support to the area northeast of the capital of Islamabad.
• About 225 soldiers have deployed with the 212th Mobile Army Surgical Hospital to Muzaffarabad, the epicenter of the quake. The hospital has a surgical capability, and has 24 intensive-care-unit beds, 36 medical-surgical beds and 60 medium- to -minimal-care beds. A U.S. water-purification unit is also operational in the remains of the city.
•  About 125 engineers with the Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 74 are working to clear roads and set up shelters. The Defense Logistics Agency delivered 800 tents to the region, and another 1,000 are on the way, officials said.
•  A total of 24 Army and Navy helicopters are operating in the region, with nine more expected to begin operations soon
• ON JUST ONE DAY you have american  choppers flying 52 sorties, airlifting more than 310,000 pounds of supplies and carried 583 passengers
• Up to Oct 30.-U.S. helicopters have flown 885 missions and evacuated 3,138 people. They have delivered almost 3.5 million pounds of supplies to areas the quake isolated.
• 95 airlift missions to Pakistan, carrying 882 tons of humanitarian-assistance supplies, 726 tons of equipment and 53 tons of medical supplies.
The USS Cleveland also delivered 37 pieces of engineering equipment and relief supplies Oct 27.

O but wait, THERES MORE!

•  Over 1200 American personnel are in Pakistan to assist with relief efforts.
•  American helicopters have flown almost 2500 sorties delivering almost 4300 tons of relief supplies to the disaster area and transporting almost 17000 people, including over 4300 people needing medical attention.
•  Over 178 U.S. military and civilian cargo airlift flights have delivered about 1900 tons of medical supplies, food, shelter material, blankets, and rescue equipment to Pakistan. U.S. ground support personnel in Pakistan have unloaded a total of over 5800 tons of relief supplies from U.S. and other aircraft.
•  A 125 person Naval Mobile Construction Battalion is working to clear debris and to build support structures at camps for displaced persons.
•  A U.S. Army Mobile Army Surgical Hospital operating in Muzaffarabad has provided urgent medical care to more than 2300 injured people. A U.S. Marine medical team began treating patients in Shinkaria November 15.
•  Nine U.S. military and commercial ships have delivered 115 pieces of heavy equipment, 34 containers of supplies and 176 tons of humanitarian assistance through the port of Karachi.

More still..showing the American Greed and apathy were often accused of...

USAID and Procter & Gamble announced a $600,000 public-private alliance to provide safe drinking water for those affected by the earthquake

U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) has flown 2,019 helicopter missions, delivered 4,741 short tons of humanitarian relief supplies, evacuated casualties and transported humanitarian relief workers for a total of 15,143 passengers.

73 pieces of equipment to clear school and university sites, construct airport berms, and build latrines and tent sites. The Qasim helicopter ramp expansion is now complete. To date, DOD has obligated $92 million for relief operations.

Here are some Money Numbers...again showing our reluctance to help out...

U.S. Government (USG) Humanitarian and Reconstruction Assistance Pledged:
 $510 MILLION
USAID Humanitarian Assistance :
 $300 MILLION
USAID/OFDA Humanitarian Assistance Committed to Pakistan:
 $56 MILLION
Total USAID Humanitarian Assistance Committed to Pakistan:
 $60 MILLION
USAID/OFDA Humanitarian Assistance Committed to India:
 $600,662
Total USG Humanitarian Assistance Committed to South Asia:
 $60, again..MILLION

And Materials....

3200 latrines
400,000 tents,
7300 shelter kits
45000 blankets
1570 winter tents
15,000 water containers,
6,150 rolls of plastic sheeting for approximately 30,750 families
----------------

So..there you have it....MORE than enough evidence of the stone-cold heartedness of the American Government and its people.

Someone..please provide us with the European Numbers..im anxious to compare notes...

(And btw..American Citizens...even Red state Citizens pay the TAXES, you know...out of our own pockets, to make this aid possible)

I take these numbers as evidence for anyone that stands and claims that americans are callous heartless bastards, that they can take that opinion and stuff it where the sun dont shine!

Cheers-    
-----------
http://www.defense.gov/news/Oct2005/20051031_3205.html
http://www.usaid.gov/locations/asia_near_east/south_asia_quake/

[BTs_FahQ2]

If only norther pakistan bordered California, we would let them all run here to a better life....
hahahaha, how about we end our aid to mexico and send it to true 3rd world countries

[c| Spetsnaz.]

Yeah you'd think that since the Pakistani ISI is essentially a puppet of the CIA they would be more willing to help out, unless of course we're not really trying to find him in the first place. Maybe they don't want us to find out that the former head of the ISI, Lt. Gen. Mahmoud Ahmed wired Mohammed Atta $100,000 three weeks before 9/11, oh wait Lt. Gen Mahmoud Ahmed was in Washington the morning of 9/11 having lunch with George Tenet and Porter Goss, hmmm.

The US could have fully funded world hunger efforts for 9 years, immunized every child for the next 74 years,  and funded world AIDs efforts for 22 years with the money we've spent in Iraq.

The use of torture by the US is absolutely indefensible. In endorsing such practices abroad we open ourselves up to such abuse domestically.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

The use of torture by the US is absolutely indefensible. In endorsing such practices abroad we open ourselves up to such abuse domestically.

I've often said that I don't mind torturing terrorists if it will get us the information that we need, but in reality, I am not much for torture.  That said, why don't I ever hear anyone attack those countries that use torture on our soldiers?  Like the gross inhumane torture that our POW's endured during WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, etc.  I never hear the left speak of these things.  Only that we shouldn't be doing it.  Personally, I'd like to see us attacking the foreign policy of nations that use torture on our soldiers BEFORE I start talking about how bad it is that we use torture.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Fucking AMEN.

Oh, and for MUCh of what was considered torture, lets not forget that they were talking about a 90 lb appalachia she-child holding a leash for an naked iraqi...some COLD WATER, a hood, and FAKE electrodes...o and some sleep deprivation.

I know thats MUCH MUCH worse than all the beheadings, and blowing up Iraqi police recruits, Civilians and mosques, sabotaging thier own water supplies, pipelines, and executing civilian contractors there TO REBUILD THE GODAMN INFRASTRUCTURE SO WE CAN GET THE FUCK OUT OF THERE....

Ask the Egyptians what they do to coerce information out of enemies, or the Turks, or the Syrians,  The Iranians, or the Malaysians, or thailand, or NORTH Korea, or RUSSIA, or the Serbs, or the Croats, or the Chechnyans,

******Oh wait..i found a list...lets make this fair and spread some of that criticism around please..our shit is CHILDS play compared to what goes on in the countries listed below.

Beatings
Brazil, Burma,  China, Egypt, Eritrea, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Pakistan,  Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Zimbabwe

Binding/Shackling  of Limbs
China, Eritrea, Israel, Pakistan

Blindfolding
Egypt, Israel, Turkey

Branding
Iraq

Burning
Iran, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan, Turkey

Denial of  Food/Water
Burma, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Pakistan , Tunisia, Turkey, Zimbabwe

Dog  Attacks
Libya

Dripping  Water on Head
Turkey

Electric  Shocks
Brazil, China,  Egypt, Indonesia, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Pakistan, Tunisia, Turkey, Uzbekistan

Exposure  to Excessive Heat/Cold
Eritrea, Indonesia, North Korea, Turkey

Forced Painful  Positions
Burma, Israel, North Korea

Humiliation
Indonesia, Israel, North Korea, Pakistan , Turkey

Mock  Executions
Turkey

Sexual  Assaults
Egypt, Eritrea, Iraq, Libya, Pakistan , Tunisia, Turkey, Uzbekistan

Sleep  Deprivation
Indonesia, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Turkey

Solitary  Confinement
China, Iraq, Jordan, North Korea, Pakistan , Tunisia

Stripping
Turkey

Submersion  (Water-boarding)
Brazil, Tunisia

Suffocation
Indonesia, Libya, Uzbekistan

Suspension/Hanging  by Limbs
Egypt, Indonesia,  Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia,  Turkey

Threats (esp.  of sexual abuse)
Brazil, Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Tunisia , Turkey


Ok yeah..to be fair..some interrogations have gotten out of control...but the bad guys arent going to tell you of their plans to rocket the next american convoy simply becuase you asked nice and abided by the slanted mock-indignation standards served up by the liberal left.

Im not for torture either really, as much as this may sound like I am..BUT i  feel for the guys on the ground who are HELD RESPONSIBLE if they are not able to retrieve information that saves the lives of our boys or american citizens....  Grey area indeed.

I ask as a matter of curiosity...specifically WHAT should our policy be when American lives on the ground (here or abroad) DEPEND on accurate intel..and the guy in the box just aint talking?  i ask myself this question as well, and dont have an answer...Im interested in yours.

[BTs_FahQ2]

Hell, I would do all of these and worse to someone who simply broke into my house or maybe insulted my soon to be wife.

This is bad how?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Hell, I would do all of these and worse to someone who simply broke into my house or maybe insulted my soon to be wife.

This is bad how?

Oh yeah, don't get me started on what I would do to someone who broke into my house...

hehehe...It would be a free-for-all GhostSniper rampage torture spree BABY!   

[BTs_FahQ2]

hahaha, see what i mean, shit, some countries would probably consider the traffic in Los Angeles legitimate torture.  I say fry a leg and hear a good story.

Come to think of it, like 60% of the shit on Sheix's list was either done by me or to me to numerous people from grammar school through college. Hell, I can at least classify 3 directly under my occupation.

My answer to torture is don't get caught, don't be the enemy combatant or don't know shit. When all else fails shit your pants repeatedly and let them deal with the smell.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

When all else fails shit your pants repeatedly and let them deal with the smell.

pfft..i do that after four tequilas..

[c| Spetsnaz.]

You are aware that the U.S. has relations with every country on your list, except North Korea and Iran? Many of the countries you've mentioned have actually received huge funding for the 'Global War on Terror' (GWOT) despite having an abhorrent record of human rights abuses.

In fact many of the countries you mentioned have had personnel trained at the U.S. Army School of the Americas at Fort Benning, Georgia. On November 16, 1989, six Jesuit priests, their co-worker and her teenage daughter were massacred in El Salvador. A U.S. Congressional Task Force reported that those responsible were trained at the U.S. Army School of the Americas (SOA) at Ft. Benning, Georgia. Many of Latin America's greatest atrocities were carried out by SOA graduates.

The SOA trains our 'friends' abroad in advanced terrorist tactics, forced interrogations and methods of torture.

My point simply being: If we torture, we warrant the torture of our assets abroad and give the government plausible justification to use such methods on U.S. citizens.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

My point simply being: If we torture, we warrant the torture of our assets abroad and give the government plausible justification to use such methods on U.S. citizens.

I agree whole heartedly..

But still wanting an answer as to what we SHOULD do..when lives and operations are at stake..and being nice aint cutting it. And the lives say..of abducted but yet undiscovered children, when a suspect is caught.
Im not being a smartass either...im asking.

And that Funding..which then qualifies them for being considered as having 'Relations" is the only thing that is convincing many of those nations to cooperate. Bad thing? maybe, maybe not. Funding wars by proxy is something that every cold war nation is guilty of. In the instance of El Salvadore, we trained those guys to overthrow the marxist dictator, and to redsitribute the land BACK to the peasants from whom that land was confiscated by the richest .12% of the population....so as to gain access to favorable land for south american bases...and to re-take over lucrative coffee plantations, the profits of which were further used to fund the CIA and its ostensible war on Drugs and against the Columbian guerillas who wwere running the large drug operations. The atrocities commited by those people comes down to the alliances they hold. At the time they were trained, we considerd them to be valuable assets in the overthrow of the dictator that was in place. Not our fault they decided to use that training against civilians. hell, in that conflict, and the one brewing in columbia, far worse is/was being commited against the civilian populstion by UNtrained rebels...so its all relative...

Every issue can be dissected, and found to be a double edged sword.
Trick is deciding which side of the sword to get cut by.

Btw...Our assets have been tortured in almost every conflict we've ever been involved in, especially unclaimed CIA. (and POWs in conflicts prior to the Gulf War)

[BFG]

I'll come to the Pakistan earthquake stuff later and move it to a new thread - but Shiex that wasn't a "US only" attack - it was a world wide global attack on the lack of reaction to the disaster. And while all those stats of what has been done is great my point was that it is not enough The US and Europe are in the position to do so much much more and yet there are still people starving and freezing to death.


Before this gets into some pathetic joke about torture and human abuse in which it seems to be rapidly dissolving into i wouldn't mind making a few points.


There are a few very important factors that seem to be being over looked in the "fuck terrorists they don't deserve shit" approach to this:

1. The definition of Terrorism who defines it and under what conditions someone's actions or intended actions are deemed to be within that classification. - Yes i know I'm going back to the argument of freedom fighter v terrorist and the differences of views that people around the world have (not just the most popular conflict between Palestine and Israel)

So Imagine a quick role reversal if you will for a moment. Hypothetically the North-Korian secret service are kidnapping suspected terrorists around the world including Americans and shipping them to secret camps where they interrogate them including the use of torture. You don't believe those held in captivity have done anything wrong - but their captors believe they are terrorists or have information about terrorists. How would you feel about North-Korea if you knew that was happening to your fellow citizens?
What im getting at here is the fact that the power (and its corruptness) lies with those who 'define' what and who can be classified under the term 'terrorist'

2.
As im sure your all more than aware off the US just Executed its 1000th person since the reintroduction of the Dealth Penalty. And as it has reached this sick milestone there have been a lot of recent discussions over here about the holes and huge flaws in so many trials... and the horrific miscarriages of justice that have led to the murder of most probably perfectly innocent people. Innocent people murdered for a crime they didn't commit.

Which leads me to the fact that many many people kidnapped by the US in these cases of 'Extraordinary Rendition' have been completely and utterly innocent in shocking cases of mistaken identity or pathetically poor and inadequate intelligence.

So let me make another hypothetical situation... Imagine if your Brother/Sister/Uncle or Aunt is suddenly kidnapped from their home and flown secretly to another location somewhere in the world. They might be taken to a secret detention unit somewhere, or they might be handed to foreign secret service personal for interrogation. They havn't done anything wrong - there has been a mistake made or an error. Or perhaps it was something they have said or done which this foreign force has decided is a threat to their security. how would you feel then?

Where is the accountability to these people the US so conveniently decides are 'illegal combatants'. What is or was the fate of such men as September 11th suspect Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. What happened to the definition suspect. There has long been assumption that they are held in secret facilities outside the US other than Guantanamo Bay. Amnesty international has highlighted the case of two Yemeni men who claimed they were held in-secret, underground US jails for more than 18 months without being charged. During that time they say they were tortured for four days by the Jordanian intelligence services.

I've often said that I don't mind torturing terrorists if it will get us the information that we need, but in reality, I am not much for torture.  That said, why don't I ever hear anyone attack those countries that use torture on our soldiers?  Like the gross inhumane torture that our POW's endured during WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, etc.  I never hear the left speak of these things.  Only that we shouldn't be doing it.  Personally, I'd like to see us attacking the foreign policy of nations that use torture on our soldiers BEFORE I start talking about how bad it is that we use torture.

Perhaps because WWII ended a few decades ago, perhaps because the US invaded Vietnam and doesn't  exactly have a gleaming record for that conflict.
Id love us all to be attacking the foreign policy of nations that use torture GS i cannot agree more. Its a little difficult if the US is doing to but certainly i think there should be international pressure on just some of these countries - but we all know that when it comes to matters like this there are allways little military or Commercial interests that just happen to get in the way. and thats sick. Be it the 'special relationship' with Israel, the use of Military facilities in Uzbekistan, the Commercial interests of China, the Oil interests of Saudi Arabia etc the list goes on.

Turkey, Israel, Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Pakistan, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, China, Burma, Indonesia, Uzbekistan

Spetz summed it up very concisely i think in his post.

I know thats MUCH MUCH worse than all the beheadings, and blowing up Iraqi police recruits, Civilians and mosques, sabotaging thier own water supplies, pipelines, and executing civilian contractors there TO REBUILD THE GODAMN INFRASTRUCTURE SO WE CAN GET THE FUCK OUT OF THERE....

So Shiex - If the terrorists and insurgents do it so can the US? Let me get this straight - your saying you should be allowed to do the things that your fighting people against for doing? By the nature of the definition of a terrorist or 'insurgent' these people will stop at nothing - If you put down your morals and brush aside the very fundamentals for the reason for fighting in the first place - what is the point in fighting there is no difference between either side except that one is a 1st world country backed by a government

Do we become more, or less like our enemy if we adopt the same methods of imprisonment and maybe even torture that they use? Where is the moral high ground? Where is the righteous 'Crusade' rhetoric that bush so loved to use in the run up to the invasion of Iraq etc?

Oh and those stats, Nice find shiex.

I couldn't help but notice that Iraq (a country ran by a dictator now facing war crimes, a country invaded and under military occupation) came up a total of 9 times.

Then again I couldn't help but notice that Israel (a country supported and protected by the US almost unquestionably it seems) also managed to make the list a total of six times.

Other countries like Turkey have a appalling record. Or China for example - I mean christ the Chinese still kill thousands of their own citizens by the firing squad under the death penalty..... Oh wait that sounds familiar.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

I truely enjoy the fact that you will take the time to make an indepth post.
I REALLy appreciate that BFG...Ill respond in more detail later...

!!!!!BUT NO ONE HAS ADDRESSED MY QUESTION ABOUT AN EFFECTIVE ALTERNATIVE!!!!!
to these relatively light tortures, when accurate intel is desparately needed.

Please imagine you are the commander of a convoy that delivers infrasctructure parts. You have in your cell, someone that has been handed over by his peers (perhaps for money) and you are suspecting that
he has connections to an imminent attack that is rumored to target YOUr convoy, and YOUR men.

What do you do, and how do you extract that information that is VITAL to the survival of your men???

Please..someone..answer this critical question.

Its easy to say something is immoral, or something along those (VALID) lines, but that does nothing to save YOUR men..if and when you are facing the intel dilemma. (I am agreeing that your premise is correct: Torture is bad) but so is allowing the death of your men, your friends.

What is the moral solution then?

["Sixhits"]

Don't give yourself all the credit. It's takes two to tango, sweetcheeks.

Sorry, I'm no longer allowed to voice my political views on this forum.

Coincidentally, the political talk in this forum has pretty much died without my warped input these last few months. 

[c| Spetsnaz.]

Philosophers have been pondering that question for the past two-thousand years, there is no definitive answer accept the one you decide for yourself or by asking the question, Who would Jesus torture?