Why Finals must be held.

[z][t-Rampage]

hey guys,

i think this is pretty simple actually, i just think a little too much is being read into it. my boys are pretty much talking about a situation that is frustrating them and has in the past too. and in fairness, any clan would. thats why there are forums. since i know my guys i also know that there is no baiting going on here, just venting of frustration. and yes ofc we are all noticing the fall ghr is taking and has been taking for a couple of seasons. examples have been used and tigah responded fairly to the fact that [a] was used as a refference to a offer to cb. but it is only frustration from a bunch of guys who want to cb. read this post however you feel, but that is what it is. timezones, work, real life etc etc have always been valid reasons for turning cb's down and yes we have probably had a few of those ourselves. but turning this into z][t thinks they is the shit and they thinks they is special is out of line. BFG, yes this is a game and yes it is not life or death, it never was. nor is it life or death if we win or loose. we like the game and we like to play it competetively, nothing more. the fact that we have won so many times is based on many things, skill, luck, team spirit, friendship.  but at no point have i seen my guys get cocky or think they are special because of this. proud yes and that they have earned. we have had a rule since we started - we will fight any clan, with any part of our squad. if we loose...we'll blow a gasket or two, then we find out why and we go out and play again. if we dig into the forums we will see the same type of response from me, from last season. i was frustrated because of the lack of cb's we had and the lack of oponents. that changed and it was a good season. hopefully it will be the same this season but a champions league type ladder would be a good idea to consider soon. so to sum up a very mature post, all they want is to alot of good, nice, polite and hard cb's going and it doesnt matter who is is against.

bring it on!

[core.Flies]

Dear mr. "Rampage"

Should you be in any doubt, I can hereby validate, that I think your members frustration and anger
about not getting CB´s and seing the Finals suddenly taken out, is very understandable.

Its simply just your timing that sucks, if you ask me.

Up front, before the season-start, I (on behalf of Core) tried to put some attention to the pros and cons
in removing finals. I already at that time kinda knew that many of your members shared my point of view.

But at that time - when posts in the forum could have meant something - I got absolutely no back-up.
On the contrary. One of your members even posted a comment that gave me ( and mb others) the impression that Core was alone in this "Quest" and being a bit out of line, because we warned about
a season without finals would just increase all the technical speculation in who to CB and who not.

Of course a system like this raise frustration level within the top clans. Its logic - and those denying it, are either not looking deep enough into it - or having reasons of their own for not admitting.
The math behind it is pretty clear.

And of course its not clanrelated. Right now it seems to be you guys who are dodged the most, but an ELOpoint-only based ladder will just bring on the problem to the next clans that are in the top 3.

And of course an ELOpoint only based ladder, will only give your clan the very unhonorable choice to CB whatever you cvan get...meaning in the end you sit and CB the lowest ranked clans, that doesnt give a XXXx about position on ladder.

So to me there is absolutely nothing new in all this.
What was new to me was the lack of support when it counted, from some of the clans i regard as being able to think for themselves. Bringing out your frustrations at this point is just waste of time.

Best regards
| ! | Flies

[BFG]

A couple of quick things before i get back to the work i should have been doing...

• Ramps this was in now way an attack etc at z][t , i know only too well that frustration at finding a cb when all u want to do is play, and all u get are the same old replys from people who don't want to play... i was more responding to a general attitude/approach to the league which i think is damaging.

• Flies and or others... I fail to see the logic in the argument for finals, no actually i don't. By having the finals system you could play a handful of cb's but still win the league - thus suggesting that your referring to winning being more important than playing. I do not see the finals as being the resolution to the problem of not being able to find games that your describing. - why? well because the finals accounts for a handful of games during one/two weekends - and i do not see that as a resolution to a problem that goes throughout the mains season for many weeks.

The benefit of the finals/tourny was that games are set up and scheduled. So i'll ask (again) if this is the real benefit which you miss (and removes this problem of finding cb's) are you instead looking for the league to move towards a more structured 'scheduled' system?

[z][t-Magnetic]

One of your members even posted a comment that gave me ( and mb others) the impression that Core was alone in this "Quest

Awwwww. I never realised that my little comment said all the above? I never realised either that it hurt you that much. That was never intended. Read it again, and you will see how funny it actually is.

[z][t-Rampage]

in all honesty i think my timing is fabulous. its a thread that can easily continue and become sour and build up agression between more people than needed. therefore the explanation on my boys behalf and my reasoning on it. not the finals. As for the finals, i really havent had the time to get into the details of the previous discussions on that topic, but usually i tend to agree with most of your pov's. and yes there is nothing new to this. its the same old topic and disussion that we have had before, but i do believe that if this is the way a clan feels about it - it being cO,GHRA, TRIBE etc its all fine to bring it back up even if its "old" news. as for me throwing in the champions league in the mix - was more a future thought when things get EVEN slower than they are now. BFG, thanx for the reply, it was a more general reply from me. but i did read it in the wrong tone. i see the love now!

*walks out and thinks about great timing  

[core.Flies]

Magnetic:

The only fun I could find in it, Magnetic, was that when i draw attention to th problems it would create, removing the finals, your made the usual reply on "relax...its just a game...." all that stuff.

And not more than 2-3 weeks later you are yourself deep involved in the exact same discussion.
Only difference is, that I tried to discuss it at a time when things mb could have been changed.
You discuss it at a time, when you cant get any other reply from admins than: " sry - but the season is rolling".

BFG:


An Elo-point ladder, is only doable in a universe, where the number of participating clans is so high that single clans cant gain any advantage in dodging each other. For huge ladders with lets say 200 - 300 clans participating, the top 3 clans cant get any advantage in dodging Cb´s with each other.
This is where the probablitiy-stuff comes in. therefore my remark on the math.
And if you cant affect the ladder by dodging another clan, you only have one perspective: CB like hell.

With an Elo-point based ladder in a universe so small, that you only have like 10-15 participating clans,
the actions of each individual clan (who they cb and who they dont ) affects the whole ladder.

This is why instead of just CB-ing like rabbits, the clans on a small ladder are more aware of the political advantages they can gain from dodging or CB-ing other clans.

The system with having Finals on the contrary gives the most advantages to small ladders, and beside the glossy effect it is to see the top-3 clans cb-ing each other on a 300-clan ladder, a Finals system is best in a small ladder, with like "best 4 out of lets say 15 participating clans". It reduces the very reason to go and do tactical dodging of specific clans.

And its good for having a fair fight in between the top-clans, so the declared winner is more likely to be the skilled one too. On the battleground that is, and not in the chat-windows.

I feel that I will never be able to make oyu " see the light" from a more subjective point of speech.
So then plz think about it in the mathematical way.

:-)


Rampage
The timing in this discussion can get down to : Is it best to discuss rules before  or after tehy are put into action., Thats what i am referring to.

Best regards
| ! |  Flies

[z][t-Neo]

Flies ... some stuff only can be tested in action .. we all are not perfect. Actually the finals are not the mainpoint we are refering to, that hopefully should be clear to you.
The main issue we are discussing is the fact that for us, and to me it seems only for us, it is very hard to CB any clan at the moment.
Offers made in that thread are appreciated. And i suggested another rule saying that all clans registered for the GhR Team and or the Adv ladder have to play all other clans registered on these ladders in order to increase activity and variaty in the season.

It never was a problem b4 for us. We also seeked for CBs when we were on top of the ladder all previous seasons because it was all about the fun. But right now things changed, and, hey sorry this only can be find out in the season not b4 … we just get no CBs.

This probably cannot be changed within the running season, but it should be considered in the following ones.

[z][t-Magnetic]

Flies:

Wrong. I’m not discussing anythng about the finals. I don’t care about the finals. I care about playing cbs, and I’m talking about the fact that we can’t get any cbs going. End of story.

[core.Flies]

Then find yourself another thread to discuss.

"Why Finals must be held" is a thread that has my interest.

My point of view slightly differ from yours i see.
I dont think its a sudden personal ban of the ZT clan that suddenly makes it impossible for you to get CB´s. We have had same experience in Core for more than just one season. We just came to believe that maybe it was the system and setup that gave grounds for other clans moves.

Just like mentioned above ( and in the the thread i started before season start).

If you only want to take your anger out on someone, and just wanna make it personal instead of constructive debate on what system to use...plz dont pick me.
If for nothing else, then just in order to not make your own quest more difficult.

Best regards
| ! |  Flies

[z][t-Magnetic]

Please stop this emo crap.

I’m not taking anything out on you Flies. Show me where.

[z][t-Rampage]

Then find yourself another thread to discuss.

"Why Finals must be held" is a thread that has my interest.

My point of view slightly differ from yours i see.
I dont think its a sudden personal ban of the ZT clan that suddenly makes it impossible for you to get CB´s. We have had same experience in Core for more than just one season. We just came to believe that maybe it was the system and setup that gave grounds for other clans moves.

Just like mentioned above ( and in the the thread i started before season start).

If you only want to take your anger out on someone, and just wanna make it personal instead of constructive debate on what system to use...plz dont pick me.
If for nothing else, then just in order to not make your own quest more difficult.

Best regards
| ! |  Flies

eh...flies? that was weird....topics have changed many many times in many many threads in the history of this forum. and somehow they come back on track or an admin locks it. on that positive note...since you replied to my post...is there any agression in that post?  this was maybe one of the things that had me post in the first place, so that this would NOT end up building agression. but since i am clearly in the wrong, i will stop doing crack and ask my guys to do the same and we'll get our feet planted well on the ground. i sooooo hope you see the lightheartedness in this post and maybe you will re-read my other post?

but that someone is picking on you? eh...huh? what? hmmm? Flies is weird

*walks out of the room with a big question mark over his head

[cO.twist]

It never was a problem b4 for us. We also seeked for CBs when we were on top of the ladder all previous seasons because it was all about the fun. But right now things changed, and, hey sorry this only can be find out in the season not b4 … we just get no CBs.

You guys never had a problem in seasons before because you would only cb noob clans (check your matchlist from last season) that were able to get on at 12 in the afternoon.  You are one of the few euro ghr clans left...don't expect people to just all of the sudden get on in the middle of the day because z][t is bitching that they can't cb whenever they want.  If you guys are so concerned about getting a cb, then YOU get on when everyone else plays.....you'll get alot more cb's that way.

[Vermin]

It never was a problem b4 for us. We also seeked for CBs when we were on top of the ladder all previous seasons because it was all about the fun. But right now things changed, and, hey sorry this only can be find out in the season not b4 … we just get no CBs.

You guys never had a problem in seasons before because you would only cb noob clans (check your matchlist from last season) that were able to get on at 12 in the afternoon.  You are one of the few euro ghr clans left...don't expect people to just all of the sudden get on in the middle of the day because z][t is bitching that they can't cb whenever they want.  If you guys are so concerned about getting a cb, then YOU get on when everyone else plays.....you'll get alot more cb's that way.

I'm not even going to respond to that ignorant approach to this argument.

[cO.twist]

thats because you can't....look at you fuckin matchlist.

[BFG]

Enough. If you can't behave and discuss this like adults then don't post.

[cO.twist]

sorry, just speaking the truth.  I'm tired of a single clan bitching about everything when they arent willing to do anything about it except complain.

[Vermin]

sorry, just speaking the truth.  I'm tired of a single clan bitching about everything when they arent willing to do anything about it except complain.

You wouldn't know.

BFG, I wish you would close this thread. It has by far outdone its intention, and now seems to have become nothing but a flameground for people with too much time on their hands.

[spike]

sorry, just speaking the truth.  I'm tired of a single clan bitching about everything when they arent willing to do anything about it except complain.

You wouldn't know.

BFG, I wish you would close this thread. It has by far outdone its intention, and now seems to have become nothing but a flameground for people with too much time on their hands.

Flames which you too are guilty of Vermin.

Either get this discussion back above level or it will be closed. Last warning.

[Ein]

Ok... Zt complains about the finals... We admins respond and say that the season has started (we are in week 3 or 4 in this 6 week season) so nothing can be done now. ZT complains about not being able to find cbs. Last season, [?] complained about the same thing. Oh well, tough. Try harder or follow the admins advice to try to schedule a cb in advance. ZT says they tried that before in a previous season. Well, unfortunately, this is really the only suggestion admins can make besides look harder or try to get clans on weekends when they are all on. I like a lot of the ZT guys but I say the same thing that many clans said to us last season... "Oh well. We can't make clans CB you." If people think you are too strong a clan to cb, break it up, divide your strong players into 2 seperate clans. You say you have only 8-10 active players... So what? Last season [:] and [?] had 4 members each. Amazingly both clans made it to finals and I'm sure with ZTs skills, both of their offshoots might make it to finals also (if there ever is a finals again).

The point is, ZT complained and many people have offered comments or suggestions to help. Although some of these suggestions came across as flames, it seems like ZT has rejected or been standoffish about any replies. Like I said guys, I like a lot of you but what do you expect us to do? What do you expect the admins to do? We've offered suggestions which you shoot down. What are your suggestions then?

Just wondering?

Ein

[Croosch]

][t-Magnetic wrote:
gg’s tin and evil. Bad job with the lean glitching maily.

no wonder you get no cbs... all you do is complain.