Cheating witch hunt

[Ein]

I've got an idea (it seemed to work back in the day). Lets toss all the players from every clan into a lake. If they sink, theyre not a cheater. If they float, well obviously that cant be right so they're cheaters.

I think what I am trying to say is that every week I come onto these forums and I notice someone else has been accused of cheating. Cheat tests are all fine and good and I believe that thy should be done occasionally to shake things up and weed out p[ossible cheaters. However, IMO this is becoming a witch hunt quickly. Everybody and their mother is being brought out in front of all in this public forum and being accused of cheating. Some of these people have been found to be innocent but their name still leaves tarnished.(I will never think of Rabbit the same, nor Phara just because they were accused.) Weather these people are found by the admins to be guilty or innocent, there will now always be some doubt in my mind.

I understand there are cheaters out there but I dont want to hear all of these accusations until they are proven as fact by the DBL admins. Is there anyway that the admins can set up a forum that can be posted to by all but only viewed by the forum admins? This way, they can investigate the alleged cheat and if it is found to be an actual cheat, they can make a public post about it for all to see. Otherwise I will just save all replays from my public server and start examining them. Im sure there are a lot of things that look questionable. People lie down durring games all the time. I'll call "glitch" on everyone I see (especially the good players, just to get them banned so it will be easier for other clans to beat the "said cheater's" clan)

It is getting rediculous. 

Ein

[jerkasaur]

The rabbit situation and the phara situation are compeletely differnt. Wih rabbit, there was evidence in the form of a replay an extensve discussion about it. US was unhappy with the result and decided to take their anger out on Phara just to prove a point. Phara didn't cheat and wasn't accused of cheating, he was however accused of glitching in a cb and US for some reason decided that was grounds for a ban. There isn't some sort of cheating witch hunt going on around here, just 1 clan unhappy that their new member can't play during the next season.

[Ein]

Rabbit and Phara were just examples. More examples would be Ghra not sending replays in time to cO which also made it onto the forums. Also ghosts posts about possible cheats (ghost, your cool and thanks for pointing them out but as the community has said, why point it out with no ss in the public forums to back up). Also the extensive 9 pages of reading about the upcoming cheat tests cO will randomly be calling.

My point is if someone suspects cheats, is there a way we can just post for the DBL admins to read along with a ss or replay so that we can save from the 9 pages or more of speculations, doubts, etc, until the claims have been investigated by the admins and deemed to actually be a cheat. If a cheat is found by the admins, they will post in the open forums for people to comment on. Otherwise it is all getting redundant and out of hand.

As I said, ghost pointed out some cheats but never actually showed the community. From how I understand it though, he showed the admins privately and they looked into it privately. Can this be done across the board? It would save some time for the readers of the forums and protect people from unneeded paranoia.


Ein

[spike]

Yes but if I or another admin goes around locking these topics, people will be pissed, and accuse us of censorship or some other bullshit. People have a right to be heard.
However, Punisher was shut down pretty hard, and topics that we find out of hand of spammy, will be deleted.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Well, theres nothing wrong with havng a full, and exhaustive discussion even, if there is grey area (The admins could let these dicussions go on, as long as they deal in facts, and dont get "Baitey").
I say let em go up until that point...

If the admins objectively and without sarcasm answer questions or provide information on particulars,
its always helpful for newer or less experienced players..or clan leaders.
Say for instance discussions of the particulars of the hack vs glitch or even debate like in Rabbits case.

But in the case of an accusations without PROOF, those threads should be deleted immediately.
Proof meaning, video, Filename, or replays.

Mauti makes a great point as to why proven hacks are bannable offenses...If a clan or clan member is willing to cheat in a public server to gain an advantage, they will surely do it when a reputation is on the line. Again, lay responsibility at the feet of those that do it, and not those who point it out, or are cursed with the responsbility of making administrative decisions. And if something cannot be proven conclusively, you MUST issue the benefit of the doubt.

[RoeM]

Unfortunatelly some wounds dont heal very fast when reasonable requests to see the evidence Ghost said there was about Rabbit does'nt get shared with me as clan leader of =US=. descisions are made fast by the admins, when the tide of evidence turns and 95% of experienced players agree that Rabbit is probably innocent, the Admins hold steadfast trying to, what appears to be, save face. But still, no evidence has been shared about the reconstruction of Rabbits alleged 'wallhack', only words that we are supposed to trust.

I'm sorry but untill the admins here at dbl stop being so stuborn/prideful (or whatever cauzes them to not admit that they might have been wrong about the 'Rabbit descision'), this issue wont die. People in this league are gonna be paranoid that they might lag out and have a ruined reputation too.

I love to clanbattle in this league but this type of unreasonable witch hunting has got to stop.

Is'nt this supposed to be about having fun??

RoeM

[Ein]

Well, theres nothing wrong with havng a full, and exhaustive discussion even, if there is grey area (The admins could let these dicussions go on, as long as they deal in facts, and dont get "Baitey").
I say let em go up until that point...

If the admins objectively and without sarcasm answer questions or provide information on particulars,
its always helpful for newer or less experienced players..or clan leaders.
Say for instance discussions of the particulars of the hack vs glitch or even debate like in Rabbits case.

I agree, posts to question if things are ok (especially when discussing a grey area) are fine... but if your going to try to point out to the admins that someone is guilty of something, then point it out to the admins only and leave it to the admins to decide. If a thread about someone possibly cheating is public, then the DAMN community will all add their two cents (as demonstrated in the discussion about Rabbit and the discussion about phara) which could sway the outcome of the discussion or even lead to more questions taking the talks off topic.

Once again, what I am asking is: "Is there a way to have a thread that can be posted to by all but can only be viewed by admins?" (perhaps a "possible cheat dropbox") If this is possible, then unfounded accusations would be weeded out by the admins before they got released to the public to discuss and debate.

Ein

[cO.twist]

possible cheat dropbox?? you have to be kidding...this is getting way out of hand.  If you think people are cheating, then do a cheattest...just leave it at that.  We shouldn't be constantly watching everyone like a hawk, wondering if they are cheating or not.  This league is about having fun...not being overly paranoid about everyone else.

And about the rabbit situation - i agree with roem....i wanna see the evidence that proves he cheated.  People keep bringing it up on here, but you're all ignoring it.

[jerkasaur]

Originally, I was absolutely positive that rabbit had cheated, but as i've reviewed the replays more and more, I am no longer anywhere near as sure. I could go into greater detail why, but I don't think that this is the place. The fact is that there just isn't enough proof to do anything more then suspect that he cheated and while I believe the DBL admin's have either knowlage of the type of hack he could have used, there being a hack out there doesn't prove that Rabbit was using it.

If more information was available to the public, we would know what to watch for and we would have enough information to trust the DBL admin's decision. This entire system that we have hear (the DBL league) is based on trust between the players, the admins, and Mauti himself. This is not a dictatorship where we must be sensored from information to "protect" us, this is an internet community based on trust at all levels. Sometimes this trust is shaken at all levels (cept for mauti). The Admins don't trust the players to not use the information released for the purposes of undermining our gaming experience (aka hacking), and this breads distrust of the admins by the players, since we have no information on an issue that is obviously seriously affecting us.

We are a gaming community where fun comes above all else. Participation is completely voluntary at all levels and without trust between members at all levels, the league will cease to fuction, which is unacceptable to me. To fix this issue, which seems to be tearing appart this community (or atleast contributing significantly to the eventual decline of the DBL), I would call upon the admins to release some sort of proof that these hacks exist (even a simple screen shot) and trust that the players will not use this information to ill-ends. The players themselves will then have enough information to trust that the DBL admins are acting with the best interests of the DBL and the players in mind.

Hacks have been a problem for many gaming communities, and some have extensive security while others don't. I would like to think that ours doesn't need it, and that while there are people who would hack, I think those people are so few and far between, that that is not an issue we need to be dealing with has much as we are.

Of all of the gaming communities i've been a part of, gameranger and the DBL is by far the most civilized. I think it's time we start acting like it.

[Liberate]

I can't help it. This is probably my last post since you guys are most likely going to ban me for what I say here. I am going to try my best to keep from flaming you people.

For one, what is a wallhack? Define it. You can't go accusing someone of "wall hacking" then say "oh they were just wallhacking." How were they wall hacking? What type of wall hack? There's way too many kinds of wall hacks to ban someone for "wall hacking". Either be more specific or don't ban people.

Two, who are you guys? Honestly. If you think Rabbit, hacks, then you don't deserve to be admins of anything, let alone a clan ladder. If you think he was shooting through walls, think again. There's no way to do that unless it's a serverside mod. Even if it showed it on his screen, it would only be client side. All of this is beside the point. You saw some stupid demo taken by some stupid noob who claimed it was wall hacks and you believed him. The person who submitted the demo claiming it was wall hacks was either a complete idiot, a complete noob, or he had a grudge against rabbit. Learn what hacks are, how to use them, and how they're used before you go accusing people of it. If you have no clue what you're talking about, don't ban people at your own disgression for stuff you can't prove.

Back on topic, Rabbit doesn't hack. Seriously. He's playing on a shitty connection in California. I have no idea what server he was playing on, but it wasn't a Cali server. He was lagging terribly. The lag was causing him to teleport/warp all over the place (if you couldn't tell). Another thing, Rabbit spends his free time (his non-school, non-life, non-cb time) running around with chicks (*coughArwencough*) on every map looking for glitches/exploits (they call that a joke for all of you who have a hard time understanding things like that). Granted, glitching is frowned upon and most people would ban for it, but he wasn't in a CB. It has nothing to do with the league if he glitches/exploits outside of the DAMN BL and it's activities.

Seriously, how was Rabbit wall hacking? Explain it. Was he moving through walls? If so, was it at a single point on the map? or was he doing it all over? Was he seeing people through walls? If so, where's your proof? Was it an ESP hack? Oh, for all of you that don't know what that is, it's an Extra Sensory Perception hack. In other words, the hacker would be able to see people's health, the direction they're looking, if they're reloading, what weapons they have, etc: all by looking at the map. Now think about it the other way.

Which is more likely?
1)Rabbit gopher hacks (moving through walls)
2)Rabbit has custom wall textures that allow him to see people through walls
3)Rabbit ESP hacks
4)Rabbit is just a good ghost recon player with a shitty comp and a shitty connection.

What do you all play GHR on? A G5? Or maybe a 1.2ghz+ G4? Rabbit plays Ghost Recon on lowest graphics settings on a 400MHZ G4 with 256MB of ram and a 16MB video card. I'd love to see any of you play as well as he does on an equally low end Mac. He runs an average of 10 FPS. I see him playing at ~20 sometimes. That's when he's lucky. How would a demo of you turn out when you're playing at 10 fps?

That's another thing. Demo's are completely unreliable. The timing (sound and video) get completely fucked up when a number of things happen. The other thing that fucks up is positioning. For example, you turn 90 degrees, aim straight at someone's face, and fire. In a replay, it might look like the reticule's are 2 feet to the left of his head. What causes this? I'll tell you.

1) The difference between the player's FPS and the server/replay recorder's FPS and/or processing power.
2) Ping. The difference in latency between the player and the server. Not only does this mean latency, it means packet loss, and choke all of which tend to spike for Rabbit while he plays.

I'm sincerely sorry for any flaming/trash talking I've done here. I'll restate my point bluntly.

Rabbit does not hack. Period. Banning rabbit for wall hacking only proves your ignorance, your one sided approach, and your inability to accurately and fairly admin a competative ladder. If you can't tell the difference between a good player like Rabbit and a hacker like... whoever, then you don't deserve to admin this battle league, or any server for that matter.

For those of you who are thinking "who the hell does he think he is?", I'm an admin on tons of PC gaming servers and know a shitload about hacking. Part of being an admin and being able to tell the difference between a hacker and and a good player is HACKING. Go get some hacks and use them. Seriously. Go hack it up in single player. That way you get a feel for the hacks and will be able to recognise them if you see them. That's how any good admin starts. PC gamers find every single possible way to exploit a game engine and hack games. I have countless demos of people hacking, some obvious, some subtle, I know what hacks look like and how people generally use them. If need be, I can back up Rabbit's hard drive for him and send it to you to prove he doesn't hack. It's not even about clearing his name anymore, it's about proving that the admins' decisions can't be trusted. You have "proof" that he hacks. I have proof (no quotes) that he doesn't. 100% verifiable, undisputable proof. If you still claim he hacks, then what does that say about the admins and this ladder in general?

if something cannot be proven conclusively, you MUST issue the benefit of the doubt.

Exactly.

Did any of you even talk to Rabbit about it? US had every reason to defend one of their own against a hackusation with no evidence and no proof. However, they were wrong to attack someone else.

As for you Ein, just PM an admin and give him the post and the evidence. I'm sure there's a way to have an admin only section. Just have an admin post the ban request.

jerkasaur, DAMN BL is by far the most immature league/community I've ever seen. The fact that you (the league) banned Rabbit off the evidence presented is just retarded. All it says to me is that, excuse the rudeness, you're a bunch of ban happy little kids that have never had admin before and want to exercise it any way you can. That's my flaming opinion. My civilized opinoin is that DAMN BL needs some work. Their admins need to tell the entire community anything they know about hacking or GHR hacks period. Why? So that this kind of stupid shit doesn't happen. If everybody's aware of the hacks and knows what they look like, then nobody will come here with false hacusations.

Again, I apologize for any flaming or insulting remarks, but people need to read that. I don't mean to offend or attack anybody specifically or generally. It's about competence.



EDIT: There is no possible way to write a hack that lets you stand on one side of a wall and fire through it unless the wall/door's attributes allow it (ie. wooden door). That would involve going through the server, something you can't do without hacking the server itself and changing the server. Aim bots are simple. They are client side and enhance a player's aim before they fire the bullets. All the server does is calculate the trajectories. Cmon, if you voted yes on Prop Ban-Rabbit you need to learn some networking, computer protection, and just plain common sense.

~Lib

[cO.libre]

I can't help it. This is probably my last post since you guys are most likely going to ban me for what I say here. I am going to try my best to keep from flaming you people.

For one, what is a wallhack? Define it. You can't go accusing someone of "wall hacking" then say "oh they were just wallhacking." How were they wall hacking? What type of wall hack? There's way too many kinds of wall hacks to ban someone for "wall hacking". Either be more specific or don't ban people.

Two, who are you guys? Honestly. If you think Rabbit, hacks, then you don't deserve to be admins of anything, let alone a clan ladder. If you think he was shooting through walls, think again. There's no way to do that unless it's a serverside mod. Even if it showed it on his screen, it would only be client side. All of this is beside the point. You saw some stupid demo taken by some stupid noob who claimed it was wall hacks and you believed him. The person who submitted the demo claiming it was wall hacks was either a complete idiot, a complete noob, or he had a grudge against rabbit. Learn what hacks are, how to use them, and how they're used before you go accusing people of it. If you have no clue what you're talking about, don't ban people at your own disgression for stuff you can't prove.

Back on topic, Rabbit doesn't hack. Seriously. He's playing on a shitty connection in California. I have no idea what server he was playing on, but it wasn't a Cali server. He was lagging terribly. The lag was causing him to teleport/warp all over the place (if you couldn't tell). Another thing, Rabbit spends his free time (his non-school, non-life, non-cb time) running around with chicks (*coughArwencough*) on every map looking for glitches/exploits (they call that a joke for all of you who have a hard time understanding things like that). Granted, glitching is frowned upon and most people would ban for it, but he wasn't in a CB. It has nothing to do with the league if he glitches/exploits outside of the DAMN BL and it's activities.

Seriously, how was Rabbit wall hacking? Explain it. Was he moving through walls? If so, was it at a single point on the map? or was he doing it all over? Was he seeing people through walls? If so, where's your proof? Was it an ESP hack? Oh, for all of you that don't know what that is, it's an Extra Sensory Perception hack. In other words, the hacker would be able to see people's health, the direction they're looking, if they're reloading, what weapons they have, etc: all by looking at the map. Now think about it the other way.

Which is more likely?
1)Rabbit gopher hacks (moving through walls)
2)Rabbit has custom wall textures that allow him to see people through walls
3)Rabbit ESP hacks
4)Rabbit is just a good ghost recon player with a shitty comp and a shitty connection.

What do you all play GHR on? A G5? Or maybe a 1.2ghz+ G4? Rabbit plays Ghost Recon on lowest graphics settings on a 400MHZ G4 with 256MB of ram and a 16MB video card. I'd love to see any of you play as well as he does on an equally low end Mac. He runs an average of 10 FPS. I see him playing at ~20 sometimes. That's when he's lucky. How would a demo of you turn out when you're playing at 10 fps?

That's another thing. Demo's are completely unreliable. The timing (sound and video) get completely fucked up when a number of things happen. The other thing that fucks up is positioning. For example, you turn 90 degrees, aim straight at someone's face, and fire. In a replay, it might look like the reticule's are 2 feet to the left of his head. What causes this? I'll tell you.

1) The difference between the player's FPS and the server/replay recorder's FPS and/or processing power.
2) Ping. The difference in latency between the player and the server. Not only does this mean latency, it means packet loss, and choke all of which tend to spike for Rabbit while he plays.

I'm sincerely sorry for any flaming/trash talking I've done here. I'll restate my point bluntly.

Rabbit does not hack. Period. Banning rabbit for wall hacking only proves your ignorance, your one sided approach, and your inability to accurately and fairly admin a competative ladder. If you can't tell the difference between a good player like Rabbit and a hacker like... whoever, then you don't deserve to admin this battle league, or any server for that matter.

For those of you who are thinking "who the hell does he think he is?", I'm an admin on tons of PC gaming servers and know a shitload about hacking. Part of being an admin and being able to tell the difference between a hacker and and a good player is HACKING. Go get some hacks and use them. Seriously. Go hack it up in single player. That way you get a feel for the hacks and will be able to recognise them if you see them. That's how any good admin starts. PC gamers find every single possible way to exploit a game engine and hack games. I have countless demos of people hacking, some obvious, some subtle, I know what hacks look like and how people generally use them. If need be, I can back up Rabbit's hard drive for him and send it to you to prove he doesn't hack. It's not even about clearing his name anymore, it's about proving that the admins' decisions can't be trusted. You have "proof" that he hacks. I have proof (no quotes) that he doesn't. 100% verifiable, undisputable proof. If you still claim he hacks, then what does that say about the admins and this ladder in general?

if something cannot be proven conclusively, you MUST issue the benefit of the doubt.

Exactly.

Did any of you even talk to Rabbit about it? US had every reason to defend one of their own against a hackusation with no evidence and no proof. However, they were wrong to attack someone else.

As for you Ein, just PM an admin and give him the post and the evidence. I'm sure there's a way to have an admin only section. Just have an admin post the ban request.

jerkasaur, DAMN BL is by far the most immature league/community I've ever seen. The fact that you (the league) banned Rabbit off the evidence presented is just retarded. All it says to me is that, excuse the rudeness, you're a bunch of ban happy little kids that have never had admin before and want to exercise it any way you can. That's my flaming opinion. My civilized opinoin is that DAMN BL needs some work. Their admins need to tell the entire community anything they know about hacking or GHR hacks period. Why? So that this kind of stupid shit doesn't happen. If everybody's aware of the hacks and knows what they look like, then nobody will come here with false hacusations.

Again, I apologize for any flaming or insulting remarks, but people need to read that. I don't mean to offend or attack anybody specifically or generally. It's about competence.



EDIT: There is no possible way to write a hack that lets you stand on one side of a wall and fire through it unless the wall/door's attributes allow it (ie. wooden door). That would involve going through the server, something you can't do without hacking the server itself and changing the server. Aim bots are simple. They are client side and enhance a player's aim before they fire the bullets. All the server does is calculate the trajectories. Cmon, if you voted yes on Prop Ban-Rabbit you need to learn some networking, computer protection, and just plain common sense.

~Lib

all you admins and rabbit haters need to pay some attention to liberate ..

free rabbit

[Hunter]

Liberate...   



FREE RABBIT!!

[Jamo]

Free Rabbit.
---------
By Jamo[/size]

[ghost.fr]

well if some guys lag or wapr they should stop playing , some just use this lags in there advantage !!! some also provoc lags using other apps in background to shoot before u see them !!!

NOW and for last time :

(ghost, your cool and thanks for pointing them out but as the community has said, why point it out with no ss in the public forums to back up)

ALL this info were public and got erased by admins, i gave all info i had with proper SS and replays to damn and some freindly clan like ZT or Mods and some other

i guess spreading all info was not a good thing and they tried to protect it specialy cause its mega too easy to recreat

even ip joining is easy, and finding PC hacks (stream hacks from client) is not hard very not (google)

the evidence Ghost said there was about Rabbit does'nt get shared with me as clan leader of =US=

i got no evidence!!! i said what can be done or not, i have no authority in judging and no wich to loose  time with it

got nothing pro or against rabbit i hope he is clear and that soon all people will be

GL & HF

[Brutha]

I am writing as a forum moderator here, and not a *DBL admin. I understand some of you do not agree on the ban of =US=Deumrabbit, however I will say this. To spam the forum with nonsens is not the way to go. Liberates post is more than legit in my oppinion, because he posts something constructive(if we look aside from his use of insults, and I do beg you to consider your "flames" as you so nicely call them yourself and in the future post things with a more neutral tone, and perhaps walk off your anger before you post), and therefore it does not look to me as spam. Hunter, Jamo and Leen, if you don't have anything new to add to this thread, please post your "free rabbit posters", your applauds, and your quotes in the spam drop box.

Brutha

[{E} Ive]

guess im the noob your looking for liberate. I recently bought myself a 1.25 emac 512 ram but have played ghr for quite some time on a 700 mhz g3 256 ati 128 56k

[cO.twist]

Brutha just because you're an admin now, doesn't mean you have to act like a dick all the time.  Rabbit got screwed, and you guys won't do anything about it.  We're stating our opinions on here, which we are entitled to do.  Rabbit should be freed, he didn't do anything wrong...

Honestly, if you think about it - if it were someone like Red Tigah that had a lag problem like this, it would've been reviewed, and discussed about 100x more than what Rabbit got.  He lagged out, and now he's getting fucked for it.

[Brutha]

When did I act like a dick? I said that the spam that followed Liberates post isn't constructive and that it belongs to the spam drop box. I also commented on what liberate explained as flames in his own post. If you have a problem with that, send me a PM and I'll come and have a chat with you on GR.

[theweakspot]

He lagged out

WHEN have you ever lagged that hard and STILL be able to kill people?  I've lagged that hard, but then it corrects itself.  I've NEVER been able to lag and lag and lag for minutes. and still be able to kill.

Lag inherently means that you are suffering some bandwith issues and your game is out of synch with the rest of the game.  That's not the case here at all as everyone is saying that he lagged, but his game is still in synch with the server to be able to kill fools.

I'm fine if you don't think he cheated.  At that point that is reasonable.  But it's not lag.

[DarK.]

well if some guys lag or wapr they should stop playing , some just use this lags in there advantage !!! some also provoc lags using other apps in background to shoot before u see them !!!

Ghost, what you are saying here is PURE NONSENSE.  Lag is bad, it is never a helpful thing.  It hurts the player who is LAGGING.  Someone who is lagging will not be able to shoot someone else before they can see them, the lag would be laggin their own computer not the person whom they are shooting.  In Rabbits case (not taking sides) had that been warp/lag he would never have known(until his comp recovered from the lag), he may have been shooting at people that were on his screen, but were not actually there.  I have had times where I see people and shoot them, but I notice that there are no bullet ricochets, then I know that I am in big lag.  Rabbit could have been in this same perdicament.  (Although I seem to remember bullets ricocheting with rabbit) 
       The whole point I am trying to make is that when someone lags, their computer sees something totally different than what the host computer does.  In a replay, you dont see someone warping around, because the game doesnt know that they are, its the lag that causes warp.

Overall, there is no way that lag can be advantage to the person who is lagging.  Cmon Ghost you know this stuff.  Quit your damn cheating witch hunt and play the game.  No one bs'd about cheaters 3 years ago when I first started playing this game, and everything was good.  No one blamed c| or BTs of cheating.  There was the one issue of "fridge" and he got a perma ban from GR and the DBL for it (the gr ban might not have been the ghr glitching, but if anyone gets permabanned from GR there is usually a good reason)  Cheating might happen, but if someone wins because they cheated, I hope it helps them sleep at night to know that they probly wouldnt have been able to do that if they hadnt.  And anyone who cheats to win, even at monopoly or something bigger, inevitably feels regret because of the fact that they did cheat.  So to all you cheaters out there, Sleep well knowing that most of us dont give a flying fuck that you can shoot us with your ubedh4x.  We are just here to play a fucking game.




GET OVER IT