Gross Domestic Product...

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I was browsing around the internet today and I found something very interesting about the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of the United States.  We are ranked number 1 in the world in GDP, which is no real surprise to me.  But what was shocking is that we have a higher GDP than the entire European Union!  All those countries in the European Union COMBINED have a lower GDP than the United States.  Now that's saying something.  Now, those figures go by the PPP Calculations (Purchasing Power Parity), but even if you use the Currency and Market Exchange Rates we are still about the same as the entire European Union.

[bronto]

interesting coinsidence, pbs just aired a documentry about walmart (and other major retailers followed suit) importing goods from china. from what i understand, it is lowering our quality of life...i can't tell the difference though, i live in a box already.

[BTs-FahQ2]

GS, that is not entirely good when we have one huge ass trade deficit.  To go with bronto's comment, it just means those that have the money or the insanity to borrow just waste more money on more shit.  This is why the US is overweight and overpriced.

Now if we could export as much as we import, most of us would be saudi millionaires.

[bronto]

the GDP figures are 2/3 based on american income, not american spending. people spend that income on foreign goods though, so the GDP is really not a good indicator of our economy. not to mention that GDP also factors in things that don't have real economic value, such as investment, which represents money but not value, unless it increases the amount of american goods sold.

i want to say just use the exchange rates as an indicator but it seems paradoxical to what i just said...i'm pretty sure that's just a reflection of our trade situation...weak dollar means more import then export...and also less domestic spending of course.

i'd say just look at the job growth. +jobs=strong, -jobs=weak. we are -jobs.

(feel free to correct me, i don't have any formal education in this stuff)

[BFG]

GDP per capita
(GDP dollar estimates for all countries are derived from purchasing power parity (PPP) calculations rather than from conversions at official currency exchange rates. The PPP method involves the use of standardized international dollar price weights, which are applied to the quantities of final goods and services produced in a given economy.  The data derived from the PPP method provide the best available starting point for comparisons of economic strength and well-being between countries.)

Rank. Country            GDP Per Capita    Date of Info


1.  Luxembourg            $ 55,100                 2003 est.
2.  United States        $ 37,800                 2003 est.
3.  Norway                   $ 37,700                 2003 est.
4.  Bermuda            $ 36,000                 2003 est.
5.  Cayman Islands     $ 35,000                 2002 est.
6.  San Marino            $ 34,600                 2001 est.
7.  Switzerland            $ 32,800                 2003 est.
8.  Denmark            $ 31,200                 2003 est.
9.  Iceland                   $ 30,900                 2003 est.
10. Austria                   $ 30,000                 2003 est.
11. Ireland                $ 29,800                 2003 est.
12. Canada            $ 29,700                 2003 est.
13. Belgium            $ 29,000                 2003 est.
14. Australia            $ 28,900                 2003 est.
15. Hong Kong            $ 28,700                 2003 est.
16. Netherlands            $ 28,600                 2003 est.
17. Aruba                   $ 28,000                 2002 est.
18. Japan                   $ 28,000                 2003 est.
19. United Kingdom     $ 27,700                 2003 est.
20. Germany            $ 27,600                 2003 est.



You know whats really interesting - that its so easy to present so much data in completely different ways, and its actually very hard to get a accurate and 'unbiased' view let alone an accurate messurement be it GNP GDP GNI or whatever 3 letter abreviation! . (the data i pulled up is mostly from 2003 so a little out of date!)

[bronto]

You know whats really interesting - that its so easy to present so much data in completely different ways, and its actually very hard to get a accurate and 'unbiased' view let alone an accurate messurement be it GNP GDP GNI or whatever 3 letter abreviation! . (the data i pulled up is mostly from 2003 so a little out of date!)

see if i had known about the PPP calculation i wouldn't have been frying my brain with economic paradoxes and figures trying to find the most reliable indicator. i can see how any politician can just take the seemingly more favorable figures and present that as success, it'd be easy to fall for.

the iraq war will be directly influencing those US numbers...i'm not sure what the military budget is like though. any figures on that?

thanks for finding that bfg, i was really killing myself haha




edit: on second thought, let's find a way to factor in the population of these countries. it struck me as odd that US being the 3rd most populous nation in the world should be second to Luxembourg whose population is about 450,000.

populations: http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/peo_pop&int=-1

[BFG]

Well in the case of Luxembourg what a lot of people don't take into account is the huge workforce that commutes into the country every day to work - from Germany Belgium and France. So im guessing re the population the wealth of the country will be exaggerated by this external workforce thus pushing up the GDP.

And of course like the guys said thats without even starting to look at the Trade deficits etc.

http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrel/tradnewsrelease.htm

pulled from some website and i can't remember where:

"This year the deficit in the nation's current account will reach a record $600 billion, estimates Charles McMillion, president of MBG Information Services, a Washington economic consulting firm. That deficit measures the trade in goods, such as stereos and cars, as well as services, such as tourism and insurance - indeed most everything except the flow of capital, such as investments and foreign loans.

And this current-account deficit continues - to the tune of $1.1 million a minute. The cumulative deficit since 1990 in the US current account adds up to $3.1 trillion, Mr. McMillion calculates.

To finance the deficits, the US must borrow an equivalent amount, one way or another. These new debts are added to the nation's already massive foreign debts. It means more of the federal taxes Americans pay are being sent to central bankers in China, Japan, Taiwan, and to other foreign entities and individuals - now owning about 40 percent of Uncle Sam's debt."

[bronto]

even so, there's no way it compares to US population. i'm pretty sure that the amount of people who commute is only in the thousands. how would one go about factoring in the populations?

[BFG]

even so, there's no way it compares to US population. i'm pretty sure that the amount of people who commute is only in the thousands

Well you have to differentiate whether we are talking about wealth per Capita or not.  Foreign and trans-border workers account for more than 30% of Luxembourg's labor force. You have a significantly large percentage of the workforce that is doing nothing but adding to the economy, and this impact is magnified hugely by the fact that Luxembourg is so small in the first place!
Small countries with a high per capita GDP seem focused on providing financial services and are dependent on trans-border labor.  22% of Luxembourg's  GDP is from financial sector services and 83% from the services sector overall.

As for the USA. It may seem to be much richer than many European countries but GDP doesn't really measure production but instead consumption. America seems particular keen to use future money for todays consumption. A person might have only 2000 dollars, but he/she can always get a loan to purchase a 20000 dollars car. And it will add 20000 dollars to the GDP. American public debt, personal debt as well as current account deficit is growing much faster than income growth.
Also regarding consumption, we have to be aware that not all consumption is 'positive to wellbeing' or even voluntary. Most people would agree that one can get more happiness out of spending money on consumer durables than in military service. The USA spends a lot of (as a proportion of GDP) in defence and in locking up people in prisons than in most richer economy. USA also has a larger legal industry, a larger accounting and acturial industry, comsuming these 'products' does not improve quality of life, more like a decrease. American also spend an unusally larger proportion of the GDP in health care (15% compare with 8% in UK/Scandinavia/Japan) comsuming health care does not improve quality of life, only improving health does. But there is no evidence that American's health are better than other richer nations.

[BFG]

Regarding previous talk about the GDP being a measure of Consumption more than Production. And here is part of the answer as to why that GDP for the US is so high, and as GhostSniper pointed out so big in comparison to Europe.... a lot of it somes down to that approximately $862 billion dollars of Debt that the United States owes.

Total public and private debt owed to non-residents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services:
      
Country   Description   Amount
1.          United States   $862 billion (1995 est.)   
2.          Brazil          $222.4 billion (2002)   
3.          Australia          $176.8 billion (yearend 2002 est.)   
4.          Argentina       $155 billion (2001 est.)   
5.          Russia          $153.5 billion (yearend 2002)   
6.          Mexico          $150 billion (2000 est.)   
7.          China          $149.4 billion (2002 est.)   
8.          Korea, South   $135.2 billion (yearend 2002 est.)   
9.          Indonesia           $131 billion (2002 est.)   
10.          Iraq                 $120 billion (2002 est.)   
11.          Turkey          $118.3 billion (Yearend 2001)   
12.          India                 $100.6 billion (2001 est.)   
13.          Spain          $90 billion (1993 est.)   
14.          Sweden          $66.5 billion (1994)   
15.          Poland          $64 billion (2002)   
16.          Greece          $63.4 billion (2002 est.)   
17.          Thailand          $62.5 billion (2002 est.)   
18.          Philippines          $60.3 billion (2002)   
19.          Hong Kong         $49.5 billion (2002 est.)   
20.          Malaysia         $47.5 billion (2002 est.)   

[bronto]

could we (we meaning everyone who's good at math, excluding me because i suck) come up with an equation for the true value of a nation based on population, trade, debt, consumption, income, production, investments, and anything else i might have missed?

of course such a figure wouldn't really help anyone, but it'd be great for comparing countries! 


oh damnit i forgot that the population thing would only work if you use the percentage of the population that has jobs. that would probably show up on tax stats somewhere right? oh then you have the tons of migrant workers working off the books sending money back home. which leads me to another subject entirely: what the fuck is the uprising against mexican immigrants for? rise against walmart you stupid hick ass motherfucks!

[BFG]

lol bronto.

Re the equation for true value... i doubt it, i think lots of people have been tryiing for a long time and u just can't do it. The most effective way seems to be to look at all of these different systems of measurement while being aware of their weakness's in an attempt to draw up a broad cross section.

I found another very interesting few bits of stats though.... Aid.

The net official development assistance (ODA) from Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) nations to developing countries and multilateral organizations.

1.   Luxembourg   $352.30 per person   
2.   Norway          $307.95 per person   
3.   Denmark          $302.72 per person   
4.   Netherlands   $216.71 per person   
5.   Sweden          $191.48 per person   
6.   Switzerland   $150.30 per person   
7.   France          $104.68 per person   
8.   United Kingdom   $74.88 per person   
9.   Belgium          $74.25 per person   
10.   Finland          $73.01 per person   
11.   Ireland          $72.11 per person   
12.   Japan          $71.53 per person   
13.   Germany       $67.96 per person   
14.   Austria          $50.07 per person   
15.   Australia          $45.30 per person   
16.   Canada          $40.36 per person   
17.   Spain          $33.07 per person   
18.   Portugal          $26.82 per person   
19.   New Zealand   $25.23 per person   
20.   United States   $23.76 per person

Even if you ignore Luxembourg and just look at Scandinavia which dominates the top spots, thats a mighty huge difference in the aid those countries give in comparison to the United states... Then compare their GDP with that of the US...

[bronto]

i'm impressed...many times have i heard that america gives the most aid. this is truly a despicable nation.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

i'm impressed...many times have i heard that america gives the most aid. this is truly a despicable nation.

Hold on just a minute buddy...America DOES give the most aid.  Take a look at total aid that we give out compared to those countries...that is just doing it "by person".  You also have to realize that we are the World's Police force...everytime somebody gets in trouble, they call us.  So we end up spending far more on our military to help out the rest of the world, and those aid figures don't take that into account (the U.S. Military contributes a huge amount of disaster relief, building shelter for the homeless, feeding the hungry, etc...all over the world--in addition to things like peacekeeping operations that the United Nations and NATO send us into).  So don't you dare for one second act like we aren't a charitable nation...we are the most giving nation on earth.

[BFG]

Like GS said this is measured per head of population, and the US does spend a huge amount on Military - some of which comes through in disaster relief etc as GS says - although i wouldn't say that that part of military use would exactly equal out as a large amount of money if you want to count that as AID.

Secondly there is a difference between What the population of a country does, and what the government of a country does - personally id say there are a hell of a lot extremely generous americans, wouldn't say the same for the government but those are two different things.

You also have to realize that we are the World's Police force

Um Ghost-Sniper have you watched Team America? ... i just kinda find that rather funny.

we are the most giving nation on earth.

According to what?  Depends what you call 'giving' doesn't it? What about taking? who would you say is the most 'taking' nation on earth?

[bronto]

in recent times the US has become a perfect example of greed, corruption, ignorance, and just plain evil. if we want to keep the title of peacekeeping moneygivers, then do it, right now we canceled out that image and replaced it with what we have become.

example: president bush ends funding for contraceptive aid for africans because it goes against his personal beliefs, but then he increases other aid there...but those increased funds won't nearly cover the AIDS sickness and death that will be spread or the inability to get a working economy off the ground from his ending of contraceptive funds. it's rediculous backwards bullshit and i'm not going to let a few face saving dollars justify this insanity...we aren't making reparations, we aren't helping these people.

the united states has become UTTERLY FUCKING DESPICABLE.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Bronto, did you vote in the last election?  Do you write to your congressmen?  Do you join organizations that take a stand on issues that are important to you?  You know, you can make a difference.  I don't care if you are Conservative or Liberal, Republican or Democrat...you can make a difference and you can stand up for what you believe in.  So go do something about it.  Don't bitch here because things aren't the way you want them.

You must be the change you wish to see in the world.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

[bronto]

i don't have to prove myself to you but if that's what you want then here's what i do:
currently getting my TEFL certificate and taking college classes to go teach english to those who need it for their future. i'm a vegan, i recycle, i sponsor a child in the phillipines, and i give money to homeless people in the street. oh yeah, i also voted for kerry because no matter how frankenstine-like he was, he still isn't an evil world destroying silver spoon licking ape. i'm pretty sure i've earned my right to rant on the internet about the atrocities our government has committed.

i still won't take that back because if the power is invested in the people of the united states then we are responsible for the actions of the united states because we put the people in office. we're all to blame, or at least the 51% who voted for fascism and ignorance. if you voted for bush, then you ARE responsible for allowing this war to continue, and the infringement not just upon our rights, but those all around the world, and people are dying for no good reason because of it.


here's the irony of the united states political parties: the conservatives are supposed to be the people who defend the constitution, while the liberals are made out to be the ones who will change everything this country was founded on.
in reality, the conservatives are hypocritical opportunists who exploit every flaw in the constitution to get what they want, while the liberals defend the original true intentions of the constitution.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Somehow I knew..just KNEW that this was gonna degrade into an America bashing exercise...

The post seemed a bit like bait in the first place, and wasn't clear to me on it's original intent.
GS is a relatively intelligent guy, and a patriot, but I was super curious about the tone..He had to know the response he was going to draw.  Just bums me out that anyone has to state anything like that to get that type of response. Not that you guys are Obligated to be constructive, but it would be nice to see less of the stuff that makes the rest of the world resentful of us, and almost celebratory when a tragedy such as 9-11 occurs.  No, im not particularly happy to see where things have headed, but any large country in the world would be pushed into action after a similar tragedy, and like the US, would most likely be pulled into an uncontrollable conflict...just like we find ourselves now.  We'll see how Europe handles the coming islamic influx, when terrorsim strikes THEM on a large scale, then they can judge our approach to it...its coming.
(The reason i even mention the wars? Well, because any reference that presupposes america's superiority in ANYTHING inevitably leads to aspersions on our moral and net worth based on these wars.  Hence..all roads lead to Iraq)

 And no, im not questioning GS service, his commitment, US response, their commitment to assisting (militarily or otherwise) weaker countries in the world..but im also not really for smashing the rest of the world over the head with it either...with any of it..becuase all thats going to accomplish is people digging into their facts, and charts and graphs to somehow point out why America isnt  the BEAUTIFUL country i believe it to be.  Guess what..NONE of you can convince me to the contrary...and it disgusts me to NO end to hear crap like Bronto's about what a despicable country we are.  Tell that to the 110,000 people deported from just the mexico border trying to sneak in, or the 1700 men women and children that died in the desert this year alone trying to walk themselves into the american dream....or for that matter...the entire  middle east calls calls...get after it.  Theyre looking for people that hate us... Or did you just mean, that with all our democracy and freedom to criticize and make whatever we want out of our lives, that we're still despicable, just not THAT despicable?

Bronto, if youre an american, you painted yourself into a rather tricky position.   So do the actions of a SMALL, VERY SMALL group of power interests in this country along with Multi-(meaning MANY)National companies to value greed over humanity and oil over humanity overshadow the things that make Americans like yourself worthwhile humans? You arent the only one, you know.

Do you believe that somehow all that glowing shit you said about yourself and your abundant giving, and phillipino postcard-child, and recycling makes you a better american than the rest of us despicable country dwellers because perhaps, we voted for bush? That would be a rather arrogant position to take.  Or do you believe that somehow you are the only american living and contributing in the way you do? Pick a position, because the citizens of america are not all president, not all ceos of greedy multinationals, policymakers, and force wielders.  Many are quiet americans doing the right thing, but being forced to the back of the spotlight while all the negative shit makes it to the front.  And often we are bring represented by guys who think its either fun to attempt to club others with what they think makes us a better country or those that bring out the laundry list of what makes them better americans than the rest of us...(separating themselves from the pond scum that is america) In reality most of us are just trying to good americans without all the head-bashing fanfare and self congratulations...so that maybe we can travel and use the internet to meet people in other countries who wont resent us or cut our heads off.  Basically, im sick and fucking tired of having to answer to the rest world because of the way you two have represented me. Ok sure, at first glance, this post was about GDP, but we all know it was about something much deeper.

Bronto, If youre a self loathing American..so be it, and GS if you're a over-patriotic-screw-the-rest-of -the-ingrates type of guy..so be it.
I'm not. I'm the quiet american.

I am not the neo-con president, I am not the power establishment, and i am not a power-broker throwing my weight around the world. They're gonna be there no matter who i vote for (And yes, i vote..everytime, but that doesnt mean i am accurately represented or that those i vote for are somehow answerable to lil 'ole me), no matter how many letters i write, or what organizations I belong to. Power and greed reside in every country, every party, and every powerful position....and i almost think that the rest of the world fallen has fallen under the mistaken impression that those people in power ARE us. They arent.  We used to live in a representative democracy , but things have changed into some mutant beast wearing that coat without any of the real responsibility and consequence that would come down if it were. People...they don't really represent us anymore, even when we DO vote for them.  Think Kerry would have handled all this differently? Guess what? It wouldnt have been up to him, just like its not really up to Bush.  They are figureheads for the real power behind each of those negative concepts i mentioned.

Therefore, it is illogical, and INCORRECT to broad-brush me with the same brush that they are being painted with, and its time for the rest of the world to grow up and realize that. Shit, none of us live in a true representative democracy anymore,and anyone that thinks they are is extremely self-deluded. Im just a guy, doing the best i can, trying to be as good as I can, and hoping that there are some other quiet ones out there doing the same.  Im FUCKING proud of who I am, where Im from, and what my country is...again..politicians are NOT my country..they are politicians. 

And some random reference on the internet about americas glorious GDP to poke some reaction out of some europeans says absolutely  NOTHING about what i am, or how i conduct myself...or the value of my contributions to make this world a tolerable place.  And if you didnt know that thats where this would all lead.. (me being forced to defend myself and my worth as an american, independant of the meaning of a few numbers)..you should have.  It was an irresponsible post...and i was disappointed to see it.

[bronto]

"Bronto, if youre an american, you painted yourself into a rather tricky position.   So do the actions of a SMALL, VERY SMALL group of power interests in this country along with Multi-(meaning MANY)National companies to value greed over humanity and oil over humanity overshadow the things that make Americans like yourself worthwhile humans? You arent the only one, you know."

that's the point though...what we let people within our country get away with is what we come to represent.
as for me coming off as a condescending bighead, it was only in response to ghostsniper thinking i was just ranting on the internet without actually doing something.
i am english and american, and i agree that the US is a beautiful country...as is any country...because they are all located on the planet earth...it's when that very small percentage of people you mentioned above decide to go against nature and destroy humanity, along with the rest of the world for greed that i go on the offensive. and you should too...you call yourself a quiet american...i hope this doesn't mean indifference.

politicians are not your country? if politicians are not your country, then what's the point of being patriotic? just erase the borders and be a patriot of the earth...because politicians ARE your country...they want to control you, weather you like it or not. country's don't exist without politics.

the countries that have such open immigration policies and political opportunities SUCH AS america are great places, every 4-8 years is a chance to make it a better place. unfortunately we're going backwards right now, so i'm pissed off ok?

i agree that we should enjoy this country, and the rest of them as well. how can we do that if at the same time we let people destroy it? when i say things about the US, i am speaking of that percentage you mentioned above...i know that there are people here who just want to live their lives...there's people just like that in the middle east too.

now let's all just shut up, i'm sorry if i offended anyone and especially sorry that i was provoked (in a subtle way, if that's what it was). no hard feelings, i think we're all on the same page.