XBOX dumps Intel, IBM dumps Apple - Two rejects unite?

[BTs_Mysterio]

BFG, perhaps your blind faith should go do some research. You jump to the conclusions of a fanatic on Intel. We are going to see the next generation level chips in Macs. Incase you missed all of this there is a impressive roadmap from intel. Why would Apple knowingly go with intel and the complications (MacOS on any CD) unless there were clear benefits.

Apple has stated they will no prevent Apple computers from running Windows. Apple has also stated they will not allow any old PC to run OSX (aka only Macs).

[BFG]

... um exuse me what blind faith? thats why im asking so many damn questions especially given you just seemed to be repeating what you had heard in the blurb from Steve in the Keynote. What i want to see is actual information regarding the roadmap regarding the chips that will be being used in the macs.

"we're going to see the next gen level of chips in macs" - Which means what exactly?!
you've seen what the road map is for the chips for the mac have you?

[BTs_Mysterio]

Intel isn't as secretive about future chips. You can find info on future intel products on almost any PC news sites. You are blindly attacking intel as a whole. In every post you've made on the topic. Incase you missed it, Steve spoke for 50+ minutes on Apple + Intel. You haven't even seen the keynote, or read todays news on MacNN or CNet, yet you ask questions.

Educate yourself through actually watching the keynote, and actually reading all information before you come here a troll against Intel (and Apple).

[BFG]

Haha sorry i can't help it but you really crack me up sometimes myst.

1. Great please show me the roadmap for the chips that are going in the mac because i can't find it and seeing as you give the impression you know all the information it would be nice for you to share it.

2. Im not blindly attacking them and i love the 'trolling' ha - its called questioning what is going on. dunno its great if you live life being spoon fed all the time but im not going to go running around shouting how fantastic everything is when we or at least i still don't know exactly what is going to happen.

3. nice assumptions, but ive watched it, read it, read it and read as much as i could find all over the place. Im really pleased  if your made happy watching the bunny advert and Intel bods talking about a lovely relationship, but id really like some preoper information about what is going to happen. 

If you know exactly what chips apple will be using, if you know what other hardware changes we will be seeing, if you know exactly how the OS will be limited to only run on Mac hardware, if you know exactly what the road map for the chip that apple will be using is then please do share it, otherwise shut up because the blind dribble is getting mighty boring.

[BTs_Mysterio]

You obviously don't try hard when you are looking. Try the google search in the bar. You resort to personal attacks, showing a true troll level. This is a mac community. Blind attacks on mac for no reason is called trolling. You contradict yourself, until you get your story straight this is the last time I will address you on this topic.

[BFG]

Hmm alright so you go on about my "blind attacks" my "trolling" and told me to "educate myself"  to be honest with posts like yours I'm surprised not everybody finishes there responses with a request that you stfu or try and stop behaving like such an arrogant little kid. as for the "Blind attacks on mac" well please do explain where that came from because right now you seem to be either reading your bed time story or just suffering from a common case of verbal diarrhea, no where anywhere have i blindly attacked mac for no reason.

each time i ask for information you can't/won't supply it. which bit of "I can't find it" or "please do share it" did you not understand. it was quite simple, if you don't want to fine but like i said before it doesn't seem out of order to ask you to actually back up your sales blurb with some actual information, and your wonderfully intelligent and witty "try the google bar" is well... pretty sad mate.

If its the "last time you'll address me on this topic" thats fantastic. Since nobody else is seeming to pretend to know all the answers to my questions nor respond with arrogant immature responses i can look forward to some intelligent responses from other people.

[BTs_Mysterio]

http://itpapers.techrepublic.com/thankyou.aspx?scid=127&docid=99844&view=99844
Roadmap for Intel on 64-bit including 32bit compatibility (free sign up).

Info out of Intel says that the first of these is code named “Lyndon” and will have 2MB of Cache, and even have 64-bit extensions to the x86 instruction set, Intel will "aggressively" bring 64-bit capabilities to its desktop processors in the first half of 2005. Of course it would help if Microsoft got their butts in gear with Longhorn to use the 64-bit hardware, huh?

-http://homepage.mac.com/techedgeezine/2005_0117_intel%20cache-king.htm

More Useful info: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2005/030705-intel.html

The 64-bit CPUs will be single-core products based on the Pentium 4 architecture with 2MB of cache, and will be targeted primarily at gamers and enthusiasts, according to Intel.

...

In addition to the 64-bit announcement, Intel also clarified their dual-core CPU plans. A dual-core Smithfield processor will ship in the first quarter of 2005, earlier than many analysts had suspected. The dual-core CPU will be part of Intel's Lyndon platform, which will also include the SpeedStep power management technology used in their Pentium M laptop CPUs. Look for the dual core CPUs to initially be clocked in the 2.8-3.0GHz range upon release. Intel plans call for dual core CPUs to make up 70 percent of their desktop processor shipments by 2006.

...

With the announcement of the dual-core and 64-bit CPUs, Intel CEO Craig Barrett says that the CPU maker's troubles of 2004 are behind them, and is back on track.

"You should walk away with the message that we have recovered from those missteps and the machine is firing on all cylinders on those introductions," he said.

-http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20041208-4445.html

It is expected to be built on a 65nm process and contain two CPU cores on a single die taking 151.6 million transistors (compared to around 140m in Dothan). Jonah is expected to feature a 667Mhz FSB speed and a 2Mb L2 cache shared between the two cores. In addition to the featureset of Dothan, Jonah will feature an updated SSE instruction set (SSE3 support and SSE/SSE2 support tied to MicroOps Fusion, and throughput improvement in the SSE Decoder) along with improved performance of the x86 FPU.

...

Intel Calistoga chipsets (955XM, 945PM, 945GM and 940GML), part of the Napa platform for Jonah, are expected to be released in Q1. Calistoga chipsets are expected to support a 667Mhz FSB, DDR-2 667 and PCI Express. Calistoga will be paired with ICH7-M, featuring 4xSATA-300 ports, and the Golan wireless chipset, supporting 80211a/b/g and WPA2.

...

ntel E7520 (Blackford) chipset for Dempsey is expected to be released in Q1. This chipset is expected to feature support for a 1066Mhz FSB speed, Intel's I/O acceleration, Intel Virtualisation Technology (formally Vanderpool) and Active Management technology.

...

Intel Pentium D 9xx (Presler) is expected to be released in Q2 as part of the Averill platform. Presler is the 65nm successor to Smithfield and features two physically separate cores in a single package, each with a 2MB L2 cache (for a total of 4MB of L2 cache). The two cores will communicate over a dedicated external 800Mhz FSB.

....

Intel Pentium Extreme Edition (Presler) is expected to be released in Q2. The Pentium Extreme Edition (Presler) is the 65nm successor to the Pentium Extreme Edition (Smithfield) In addition to the featureset of the Pentium D Presler, the Extreme Edition features Hyperthreading support in each of the cores and runs on a 1066Mhz FSB.

...

Intel Sossaman CPU is expected to be released in H1 2006. Although Sossaman is expected to be a desktop CPU, based on the E7520 chipset, it is expected to be a dual core processor based on the Yonah core. Sossaman is a low power processor, with the 2Ghz revision having a TDP of 31W, with the 1.67Ghz LV version having a TDP of just 15W.

...

Intel Merom Mobile processor, the successor to Jonah and part of the Santa Rosa platform, is expected to be released in Late 2006. Merom will be built on a 65nm process and is expected to feature a different architecture to previous Banias-based processors, providing a 20-30% performance improvement per clock. Merom is expected to be a dual-core CPU

...

Intel Crestine-GM (Crestline?) chipset for Merom is expected to be released in Late 2006. Crestine-GM is part of the Santa Rosa platform and is expected to support an 800Mhz FSB speed, DDRII 800 SDRAM and PCI Express. Crestine is expected to interface to ICH8-M, featuring support for Serial ATA 300, and the Golan2 / Annadel wireless chipset supporting 80211a/b/g and 11n WiMax.

...

Intel Conroe desktop CPU is expected to be released in Late 2006. Conroe is a dual core CPU based around the Merom core (i.e. it is based on a non-Netburst architecture). In order to increase the performance of this CPU for the desktop market, some of the power constraints from Merom will be removed. Conroe will feature virtualization capabilities, LaGrande technology and 64-bit capability in addition to EDB, EIST and iAMT2.

...

Intel Shavano IA-64 CPU is expected to be released in 2005/2006. Shavano is the successor to Intel's Montecito IA-64 CPU. Shavano is expected to be a dual core processor design and may introduce an asynchronous serial FSB. (Still on Intel's Roadmap?)

-http://freespace.virgin.net/m.warner/Roadmap2006.htm 
(A roadmap gathered from information released)

Not too hard to find BFG.

P.S. From the 2007 roadmap (Q3)

Intel Whitefield CPU is expected to be released in Q3. Whitefield is expected to be an entirely new CPU design for MP servers, replacing the current NetBurst architecture with a low power, possibly a 4 core Jonah design using the former Tanglewood interface. Whitefield is expected to come from Intel's design centre in India and is expected to debut at a clock speed of 2.6Ghz.

[BFG]

Allright thanks for that road map stuff - interesting read, what i had read before was much more recent ie 2005/2006 

However we don't know where in that road map the Intel chips for the Macs fit in. And as this article mentions, there was a nasty lack of information from intel and steve as to the nature of these chips - we don't know for certain that we will be seeing 64bit chips. Ok it would make sense, it would seem crazy to go back to 32bit... but who really believed Apple was going to move to Intel if you'd been asked 6months ago?! it seemed pretty crazy. There is a big worry that apple is shifting more towards a consumer base and that this move will not be favorable for business / the pro market. We have seen the pictures so many times of steve showing of just how much faster the G5's are in photoshop or FCP in comparison to Intel Pentium box's... all-right it sounds like we are going to see some great new chips from intel, but there are things like Altivec which we loose (yes there is SSE  i know but many pro apps have been very carefully optimized to the max for the G5's with altivec).

Its great to see the hardware other tech advances that we will most likely get in these box's however. PCI Express and Serial ATA, DDR 2 SDRAM support, and HD audio. We don't have any of these yet and thats not good. Hell we still don't even have RAID on the motherboard. Also im assuming this means components such as the GPU will become much cheaper as the need for mac specific versions should be removed?

Re the shape and size of the Intel macs, well i think we'll see quite a significant change. Firstly these chips run one hell of a lot cooler so that need for a stunningly designed 8 fan set up in the G5 desktops shouldn't be necessary. Lots more free space for either slimming the tower and or adding in extra goodies! The Intel chips are known to run somewhat louder so i hope they find a way to keep the decibels to a minimum

 Myst i'll never troll Mac, crikey im more likely to chew my left leg off than randomly slag off apple. Im just worried! This is a big big move for apple, and its going to be interesting to see exactly where it re-aligns itself. My real worry is that the re-alignment is towards a bigger lower level consumer base building off the ipod etc... and that the pro hi end will be marginalized. that said given the fantastic software they bring us (FCS etc) i can't see them not making sure we keep getting the goods to run it as best as possible.

Its going to be mighty interesting to see what happens....

[Civrock]

two very interesting articles can be found at HardMac respectively MacBidouille:

http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2005-06-09#4144

[BTs_Mysterio]

Oh, just to say something to that, they have on the roadmap Pentium 64bit chips (Q1 '06) so I assumed apple would use them. On the topic of Altivec, recently that was almost a lost cause on G5s. When they debuted in 2003 there were no Apps tapping into the altivec. I don't know the status today, but people always complain about the lack of quality alitivec, so I'm not sure it will be a big problem.

The Developer MacTels were sent out with PCIe, however they didn't have SLI support yet. They were stock chips because Intel is in the process of updating the processor line up.

My favourite part is that the Powerbooks will get some proper CPUs. As mentioned previously, Intel has a dual core chip for mid 06 (mobile) and a quad chip for Q3 2007 (mobile). Desktops and Notebooks will be in perfect Harmony.

I expect from the first Powermacs:
-3.6-4.0 GHz (dual core) x2
-PCIe (x5)
-SLI compatibility
-4 SATA bays
-Up to 8GB (or more?) RAM
-64-bit
-No Sticker or Jingle
-And some fancy stuff

I hope:
-1GB RAM standard
-2 Optical bays so PCers will shut up about that.

[th.Sentinel]

Here is an intresting link from xlr8yourmac

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/#S19340

[BFG]

very very interesting.

Macintosh computers using Intel microprocessors do not use Open Firmware. Although many parts of the IO registry are present and work as expected, information that is provided by Open Firmware on a Macintosh using a PowerPC microprocessor (such as a complete device tree) is not available in the IO registry on a Macintosh using an Intel microprocessor

The alternative is BIOS then... which apparently the Dev machines have, and is a massive step backwards. With no Open Firmware the alternative is the EFI boot driver. 

Compared with any 68K or PowerPC Mac, the BIOS is an enormous step backwards to times before Mac Plus. An X86 Mac based on the EFI inititive or Open Firmware could well be the future. To base the Mac on BIOS seems to be a bad joke. Looking at the EFI feature set and combining the information under 1) and 2) I fear the worst did happen. If we are going to get the BIOS, it is time to stand up and strongly push back.

nice article at arstechnica as well

[Civrock]

an even better one at ArsTechnica here. ^^

[BTs_Mysterio]

Jonah News:
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1123

A higher-performance, dual-core version of Intel's Pentium M processor due early next year is a likely candidate to boost Apple's PowerBook line of notebook computers beyond the 2GHz milestone.


The chip, code-named "Yonah," is due to begin showing up in Windows-based systems in the first quarter of 2006 -- a few months before Apple is expected to roll-out its first Intel-based Macs.

Initially, dual-core versions Yonah will be available in four flavors, ranging from 1.66GHz to 2.16GHz, each with a 667MHz front side bus. A single core 1.66GHz version of Yonah is also reportedly in the works.

According to DigiTimes, 1000-unit lots of the dual core chips will wholesale between US$241 on the low-end and US$637 for the top-of-the-line 2.16GHz model. It's possible that Apple, which will likely purchase several hundred thousand of the chips, will be able to obtain them at a further reduced cost.

Yonah will also represent Intel’s transition from 90nm technology to a 65nm process and is expected to become the gemstone of Napa -- the company's dual-core notebook platform and third generation Centrino bundle. However, the chip will be approximately 70% smaller than the original Centrino chip set, requiring significantly less board space.

At a press conference last Thursday, Intel said the chip's twin cores will increase multitasking performance in notebook-based systems, but also help extend battery life. A feature called Dynamic Power Coordination will allow Yonah's two cores to be power-managed independently, making it possible to shut down one of the cores to aid in power consumption. It will also allow for on-the-fly changes to the chip's voltage and frequency, the company said.

Another major feature of Yonah is Digital Media Boost, a dual-part update delivering improvements the chips SSE instructions for multimedia and Floating Point unit. Together, Intel says the updates will improve everything from digital photo manipulation to video editing, gaming, and music.

Yonah will also sport a new shared memory 2MB level 2 cache, dubbed "Smart Cache," which will keep data in close proximity to the processor cores for faster access. This feature is a prime component of Yonah's enhanced power management because it allows a single core to access the chip's entire memory cache when the other core is switched off.

It's believed that 32-bit Yonah chip will also be used in compact Apple desktop design, like the Mac mini.

[BFG]

Question: Apple said they won't stop people running Windows on their mac-intel box's. This has scared mac gaming developers big time... are mac gamers going to do what linux gamers did? why pay $50 for a mac game when you can just boot up windows and play the same game that you buy for $25 or somthing? Now i want to play my games under X no question about it, but is everyone going to feel that way? If apple stopped windows from booting it wouldn't be a problem... but from what ive read there are some very worried people.

also :

What happened to the PowerPC's supposed performance advantage over Intel?
This is the Altivec Factor -- PowerPC's dedicated vector processor in the G4 and G5 chips that make them so fast at running applications like Adobe Photoshop and doing that vaunted H.264 video compression. Apple loved to pull Phil Schiller onstage to do side-by-side speed tests showing how much faster in real life the G4s and G5s were than their Pentium equivalents. Was that so much BS? Did Apple not really mean it? And why was the question totally ignored in this week's presentation?

[BTs_Mysterio]

BFG, to that quote you have there. They may have been faster in the past. Apple specifically said that Intel's roadmap was far more impressive than what IBM had planned.

[BFG]

yeah guess so. hmm goes without saying that if you have a DP Duel or Quad Core set up thats petty much going to spank on everything else isn't it

[BFG]

From um... macslash i think

"Steve Jobs has confirmed the rumors on stage at the Apple Worldwide Developer's Conference. For the past 5 years Apple has had a secret team building all version of MacOS X for Intel chips since the beginning.On stage, jobs demoed a version of OS X running on quad processor(!) 3.6GHz Pentium 4 machine. Developers will need to use XCode to build applications for both current PowerPC machines and Intel machines, which should debut or consumers sometime next year."

[bronto]

i personally think you people care too much about computers.

if they were upgrading the Human Female to version 2.0 and adding an extra Vagina Drive with a STFU feature and switching over to the Non-Menstural OS, i wouldn't be so concerned if you were raving...but computers? come on now.

[BTs_Mysterio]

From um... macslash i think

"Steve Jobs has confirmed the rumors on stage at the Apple Worldwide Developer's Conference. For the past 5 years Apple has had a secret team building all version of MacOS X for Intel chips since the beginning.On stage, jobs demoed a version of OS X running on quad processor(!) 3.6GHz Pentium 4 machine. Developers will need to use XCode to build applications for both current PowerPC machines and Intel machines, which should debut or consumers sometime next year."

That's not true. It was a single... single 3.6 P4. It was basically the developer computer they sent out for 999 to the premium ADCs. Bronto, blah blah.