Schiavo Arguement

[*DAMN Bondo]

Her cerebrum is liquid mush. She will be making no recovery, she has no consiousness, she feels nothing. She is simply a functioning shell with no essence of person. The courts have determined she does have a DNR through verbal contract.

As a nod to my slightly demented side, and my fondness for musical theatre, I've been singing "If I Only Had A Brain" from Wizard of Oz a bit. I'm content with my going to hell.

[Toxic::Joka]

I'm not all that familiar with the events the lead to her current condition, or what her current condition is for that matter. But if she infact is a "vegetable" I think the spouse should have the final and only word about her faith.

[BTs_Mysterio]

GS, she isn't feeding herself. She's being fed. There's a different.

["Sixhits"]

There is no practical difference between being on a feeding tube and being on a resperator. Without the plug you die. Ghost is being disingenuous.


Which is what's so offensive about the Right's and the President's hypocracy: the President passed a law that allowed just this week for a baby to be taken off life suppport against the will of the baby's parents. Why? because the parent's could not afford to pay for their child's care.


If it had happened inside the mother's belly Ghost would be the first to call it murder. That the baby was killed outside the womb, and hence lacks any political value to him and the Right, makes it so they don't care.


As Representative Shays says (R-Connecticut)"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy." 

Your party is dead, Ghost. Conservatism is dead. All that you once valued is burning.   

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/23/politics/23repubs.html?ex=1269234000&en=b374f7629523357d&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

For those that want to inform themselves (apparently not Ghost) you can read the GAL report, the GAL having been appointed by Gov. Jeb Bush. It has an excellent section on the entire history of the case. Of note, the Schindlers only challenged the husband's right to care for his wife after he had won a medical malpractise suit to the tune of 1 million dollars, held in trust for her care, and beyond his control.

To quote: "Michael’s decision not to treat was based upon discussions and consultation with Theresa’s doctor, and was predicated on his reasoned belief that there was no longer any hope for Theresa’s recovery." This was after 3 years of being by her side everday, flying around the country, doing aggressive, often experimental therapys. All in the face of repeated medical reports that Teri would never recover. Michael held onto hope for 3 years, people. How many of us could do the same?

Additionally, the Schindlers actively encouraged him to "move on" and date.

Additionally, Micheal has formally offered to divest himself entirely of his financial interest in the guardianship estate.

Additionally, her parents admited in court that if Teri had ever made them promise to take her off life support in the case she needed it, they would not do so. They also admited that she was in a persistant vegitative state.

download the .pdf here: http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/WolfsonReport.pdf

You can also look at Abstract Appeal, a Terri Schavlio watch dog website: http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[BTs_GhostSniper]

There is no practical difference between being on a feeding tube and being on a resperator. Without the plug you die. Ghost is being disingenuous.

Oh, so a new-born baby that can't feed itself is different?[/size]

Which is what's so offensive about the Right's and the President's hypocracy: the President passed a law that allowed just this week for a baby to be taken off life suppport against the will of the baby's parents. Why? because the parent's could not afford to pay for their child's care.

I havn't seen anything about this.  Is there more to this that you aren't telling us?[/size]

They hate the result and think they can benefit from brutalizing our courts and slandering the husband. Lose the game? Change the rules!

Oh, are these the same courts that think their job is to make law?  I was always taught that was the job of Congress, not the courts.  Your piece of shit liberal courts have been fucking things up in this country for the last 50 years.  My bad.  I guess I should just throw my degree in Political Science out the window.[/size]

You sick fucks. Where's the party of Reagan? Of Ike? Of Lincoln? Dead.
As Representative Shays says (R-Connecticut)"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy." 
Your party is dead, Ghost. Conservatism is dead. All that you once valued is burning.

The Republican Party is dead?  Conservatism is dead?  Dude, wake up and smell every election in this country since 1994.  The Republican Party reigns supreme, and has dethroned the Liberal Democrats from their power trip, and now you say the Republican Party is dead?  You are living in a dream world.  Go back to sleep little boy.[/size]

["Sixhits"]

There is no practical difference between being on a feeding tube and being on a resperator. Without the plug you die. Ghost is being disingenuous.

Oh, so a new-born baby that can't feed itself is different?[/size]

Which is what's so offensive about the Right's and the President's hypocracy: the President passed a law that allowed just this week for a baby to be taken off life suppport against the will of the baby's parents. Why? because the parent's could not afford to pay for their child's care.

I havn't seen anything about this.  Is there more to this that you aren't telling us?[/size]

They hate the result and think they can benefit from brutalizing our courts and slandering the husband. Lose the game? Change the rules!

Oh, are these the same courts that think their job is to make law?  I was always taught that was the job of Congress, not the courts.  Your piece of shit liberal courts have been fucking things up in this country for the last 50 years.  My bad.  I guess I should just throw my degree in Political Science out the window.[/size]

You sick fucks. Where's the party of Reagan? Of Ike? Of Lincoln? Dead.
As Representative Shays says (R-Connecticut)"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy." 
Your party is dead, Ghost. Conservatism is dead. All that you once valued is burning.

The Republican Party is dead?  Conservatism is dead?  Dude, wake up and smell every election in this country since 1994.  The Republican Party reigns supreme, and has dethroned the Liberal Democrats from their power trip, and now you say the Republican Party is dead?  You are living in a dream world.  Go back to sleep little boy.[/size]

Good. It speaks.

1) You're still wrong. There is no practical difference. But let me be more specific. In the case of Teri S she cannot take food orally, ever again. In the case of a new born baby, the baby can and will be able to consume food orally.

2) http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934 The news story about a conscious baby being killed by a hospital under a Texas law signed by Bush in 1999. Here's the law: http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/HS/content/htm/hs.002.00.000166.00.htm Key section is Section 166.046, Subsection (e):

If the patient or the person responsible for the health care decisions of the patient is requesting life-sustaining treatment that the attending physician has decided and the review process has affirmed is inappropriate treatment, the patient shall be given available life-sustaining treatment pending transfer under Subsection (d). The patient is responsible for any costs incurred in transferring the patient to another facility. The physician and the health care facility are not obligated to provide life-sustaining treatment after the 10th day after the written decision required under Subsection (b) is provided to the patient or the person responsible for the health care decisions of the patient unless ordered to do so under Subsection (g)

Section g "extend(ing) the time period provided under Subsection (e) only if the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, that there is a reasonable expectation that a physician or health care facility that will honor the patient's directive will be found if the time extension is granted..."

Ahhh... I see. The Culture of Life is only for those who pay!

What if it was your daughter?

3) Courts don't make the law, Ghost, but State governments do and governers sign them into law. Congress does make law as well. And clearly in this case the courts are not making law. Numerous courts over more than a decade have ruled on this case using the law at hand, even the bullshit law Congress just passed that forced the case to be reviewed by a Federal, not State court, and under which it was rejected yet again. You should throw that degree out the window. You're a car salesman. Hell, you home school your daughter! Degrees are worthless! Just liberal funny writing in pagan langugues, paid for out of stolen cash... stolen right from the pockets of good, God Fearing Conservative Americans? Did you know that your state gets more Federal funding assistance than almost any other? When Ole Miss gets off the Federal tit I'll fucking buy your bullshit.

4) I guess it's how you define the Republican party, ain't it? If you think the party is the same as it ever was then you are just being willfully ignorant... but that's your idiom. And boy do you make my point about how far the GOP has slipped with your lustful joy over how the Party reigns supreme. Smacks of facism. But then that's how I filter the GOP's actions today... "How would it sound if a Nazi said it? Would it fit them?"

You'd fit right in at Nuremberg, buddy. Stick that arm out straight and high while you recant the pledge.

But my point remains telling: all that the Right proposes to believe in by their actions reveal that they do not believe in. You reveal your true Faith: faith in Power. Absolute power.

Eh, but you're not gonna read any of this, nor the supporting links, and you're likely to just continue on your merry way, confident in your ingorant bliss of just how perfect your world is. That might makes right and reason is unreasonable. Etc.

Etc.

[*DAMN Bondo]

The story from Texas this past week was a 6 year old, not a baby being forced to have the tube removed over the parent's objection. I don't think Sixhits is arguing either way on whether the kid should have had the tube removed, though I expect he'd argue that it shoudln't happen against the wishes of his parents (since he doesn't have a wife.)

The Republican party is in danger though. The libertarian wing that is isolationist, economically restrained, and socially about freedom can't stand that Bush has made the Party neo-con, HUGE government (big budget but doesn't do much which is different than Dems who are big budget but they are effective with it and pay for it) and theo-fascist social policy that limits freedom. Of course not everyone is either purely libertarian or fascist. There are many people who are only partially pleased compared to being fully or not at all pleased. The Congress already is splitting with the Adminstration and by the Presidential nomination process it will be nasty.

["Sixhits"]

The story from Texas this past week was a 6 year old, not a baby being forced to have the tube removed over the parent's objection. I don't think Sixhits is arguing either way on whether the kid should have had the tube removed, though I expect he'd argue that it shoudln't happen against the wishes of his parents (since he doesn't have a wife.)

Actually, a 6 month old.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934

But who's counting? Killing kids is a conservative pleasure, American or Iraqi.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

You're a car salesman. Hell, you home school your daughter! Degrees are worthless! Just liberal funny writing in pagan langugues, paid for out of stolen cash... stolen right from the pockets of good, God Fearing Conservative Americans? Did you know that your state gets more Federal funding assistance than almost any other? When Ole Miss gets off the Federal tit I'll fucking buy your bullshit.

Okay, this one made me laugh.

A.  I'm a Fleet Sales Manager, not a car salesman.  Besides being a manager, the main difference is that the average car salesman makes around $50,000 a year, while the average Fleet Sales Manager makes about 3 times that (some of us make 4 or 5 times that easy).

B.  We home school our daughter because they fail to teach at an acceptable level in public schools in this state, they aren't the safest places in the world to send your kids, and they have abandoned teaching children that being patriotic is a good thing (Pledge of Allegiance, besides all the revisionist history they teach).

C.  How did my college education come from stolen cash?  I am currently paying back my student loans (something the vast majority of Americans DON'T do), and the other funds for college came from me working my ass off, and from my GI Bill from honorably serving in the Armed Forces of the United States (you could just thank me for protecting your sorry ass when you were a kid, but I guess you are too liberal for that).

D.  I really don't care what you say about this state, as I'm not from here.  I simply ended up here because of the military and since my parents retired from the military here, I decided to stay after I got out of the military here.  Now, if you say anything bad about my home (Oklahoma City, Oklahoma), we'll have to fight!

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.[/size]

Oh, and I didn't bother replying to everything else you said because at this point you know where I stand, and I know where you stand.  Continuing to argue about it is pointless.[/size]

["Sixhits"]

No point in replying because you disagree. Got it. Well, keep dancing, dude.

We could go down your road and nit pick. It's an old Right tactic: avoid the issue at hand by changing the issue.

The issue is your hypocracy and that of those that you choose to have represent you. You can avoid the fact that fighting to save the life of a brain dead women or a six week old fetus is morally inconsistant with support for the war in Iraq or support for a President who signed a law that allowed for the killing of babies outside the womb, to name a few examples. But, that's not something you can win a debate on. It's also inconsistant with a the Conservative's professed agenda of small government -- what's small about Congress personally intervening in the medical care of a single private individual? And you don't want to address the fact that the GOP is no longer the GOP. Maybe you like what it has become - that's valid; but it's not what it was. Further, you rail against courts "making" law, saying that liberal judges have for 50 years fucked with this nation. That's your opinion. But you're wrong that they "made" law: they ruled on the law. If you don't like those rules, fine, enjoy your freedom to your opinion, but you are WRONG that they MADE THE LAW. And you're wrong, suggesting somewhat backhandedly, that because the left "made" the law via the courts for 50 years it is somehow right for the Right to do so now. To argue thusly is both logically false and morally reprehensible. It's also just plain ignorant.

By the way: do you sell cars? Yes/No? Glorified car salesmen are still car salesmen.

And revisionist history. Right. You are well versed in history. What revisionist history? what non-facts are they passing off as fact in your schools? My argument is that you have distain for education and public funding of education in general but live in a state that takes an overt amount of Federal Funding from public education. That the people you elect manage to STILL fuck it up is your personal responsiblity -- you elected them. Home schooling, to put it another way, is a retreat. Glad to see you run away from a good fight.

And thanks for serving. But do we need to talk about this every time you're opinions are criticized?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

No point in replying because you disagree. Got it. Well, keep dancing, dude.

We could go down your road and nit pick. It's an old Right tactic: avoid the issue at hand by changing the issue.

Not avoiding the issue, simply stating that I understand where you are coming from, you should know where I'm coming from...so why keep repeating the same thoughts back and forth?  I just said that we disagree.  Fine.  End of story.[/size]

By the way: do you sell cars? Yes/No? Glorified car salesmen are still car salesmen.

It's like the difference between an Officer in the Air Force, and an Enlisted person in the Air Force.  Sure, they are both Airmen, but one gets paid a hell of a lot more than the other one, besides being in charge.  Understand?[/size]

And revisionist history. Right. You are well versed in history. What revisionist history? what non-facts are they passing off as fact in your schools? My argument is that you have distain for education and public funding of education in general but live in a state that takes an overt amount of Federal Funding from public education. That the people you elect manage to STILL fuck it up is your personal responsiblity -- you elected them. Home schooling, to put it another way, is a retreat. Glad to see you run away from a good fight.

No, I have not elected them.  I still hold residency in the State of Oklahoma, and still vote in Oklahoma elections.  I don't particularly like this state all that much, and I've always thought the politics here were on the upper end of corrupt (2nd only to Louisiana).  And as for revisionist history, take your pick.  How about how the Nazis are shown to be the pure evil of WWII, yet the Japanese were far worse when it came to rape, murder, torture, and genocide?  But nobody ever talks about the Japanese.  How about the assasination of John F. Kennedy?  Do you really expect anyone with half a brain to believe that Lee Harvey Ozwald killed JFK?  Please.  Yet the history teachers keep on preaching the same old textbook bullshit in schools.  Sorry, but I was a history major and I researched and studied history on my own.  The textbook version is quite different from reality.  One of my favorites is this:  What was the U.S. Civil War fought over?  If you said "slavery" you might want to brush up on your history.[/size]

And thanks for serving. But do we need to talk about this every time you're opinions are criticized?

Yes, you should get down on your knees and kiss my fucking feet if you are ever in my presence.  Careful though, I might kick the shit out of you just because you are a liberal.[/size] 

[spike]

No, I have not elected them.  I still hold residency in the State of Oklahoma, and still vote in Oklahoma elections.  I don't particularly like this state all that much, and I've always thought the politics here were on the upper end of corrupt (2nd only to Louisiana).  And as for revisionist history, take your pick.  How about how the Nazis are shown to be the pure evil of WWII, yet the Japanese were far worse when it came to rape, murder, torture, and genocide?  But nobody ever talks about the Japanese.  How about the assasination of John F. Kennedy?  Do you really expect anyone with half a brain to believe that Lee Harvey Ozwald killed JFK?  Please.  Yet the history teachers keep on preaching the same old textbook bullshit in schools.  Sorry, but I was a history major and I researched and studied history on my own.  The textbook version is quite different from reality.  One of my favorites is this:  What was the U.S. Civil War fought over?  If you said "slavery" you might want to brush up on your history.[/size]

And thanks for serving. But do we need to talk about this every time you're opinions are criticized?

Yes, you should get down on your knees and kiss my fucking feet if you are ever in my presence.  Careful though, I might kick the shit out of you just because you are a liberal.[/size] 

GS, any moron with half a brain realizes that the civil war was more about economics than simple slavery. Thats something thats taught in high school class rooms. Well, it was taught in my private school. Sure there's a lot of bullshit out there, but how important is it really who killed JFK? He died, and no one has been able to figure it out since, and he has since been shown to be quite an unsavory character.

As to your military service, I agree with sixhits, sure it's great, but we all know you here, we don't need to be reminded, or blugoned over the head with it everytime an arguement comes up.

["Sixhits"]

No point in replying because you disagree. Got it. Well, keep dancing, dude.

We could go down your road and nit pick. It's an old Right tactic: avoid the issue at hand by changing the issue.

Not avoiding the issue, simply stating that I understand where you are coming from, you should know where I'm coming from...so why keep repeating the same thoughts back and forth?  I just said that we disagree.  Fine.  End of story.[/size]

By the way: do you sell cars? Yes/No? Glorified car salesmen are still car salesmen.

It's like the difference between an Officer in the Air Force, and an Enlisted person in the Air Force.  Sure, they are both Airmen, but one gets paid a hell of a lot more than the other one, besides being in charge.  Understand?[/size]

And revisionist history. Right. You are well versed in history. What revisionist history? what non-facts are they passing off as fact in your schools? My argument is that you have distain for education and public funding of education in general but live in a state that takes an overt amount of Federal Funding from public education. That the people you elect manage to STILL fuck it up is your personal responsiblity -- you elected them. Home schooling, to put it another way, is a retreat. Glad to see you run away from a good fight.

No, I have not elected them.  I still hold residency in the State of Oklahoma, and still vote in Oklahoma elections.  I don't particularly like this state all that much, and I've always thought the politics here were on the upper end of corrupt (2nd only to Louisiana).  And as for revisionist history, take your pick.  How about how the Nazis are shown to be the pure evil of WWII, yet the Japanese were far worse when it came to rape, murder, torture, and genocide?  But nobody ever talks about the Japanese.  How about the assasination of John F. Kennedy?  Do you really expect anyone with half a brain to believe that Lee Harvey Ozwald killed JFK?  Please.  Yet the history teachers keep on preaching the same old textbook bullshit in schools.  Sorry, but I was a history major and I researched and studied history on my own.  The textbook version is quite different from reality.  One of my favorites is this:  What was the U.S. Civil War fought over?  If you said "slavery" you might want to brush up on your history.[/size]

And thanks for serving. But do we need to talk about this every time you're opinions are criticized?

Yes, you should get down on your knees and kiss my fucking feet if you are ever in my presence.  Careful though, I might kick the shit out of you just because you are a liberal.[/size] 

1) Excuses, excuses. Whatever.
2) Clearly you don't understand me. Are you a car salesman? Amittedly the most uber-cool super rich car salesman ever? Whatever.
3) None of those cases are examples of REVISIONIST history -- just bad textbooks.
4) Facist, anyone? Violence in the face of dissent is a hallmark of the totalitarian.

[Typhy]

  How about how the Nazis are shown to be the pure evil of WWII, yet the Japanese were far worse when it came to rape, murder, torture, and genocide?  But nobody ever talks about the Japanese. [/size]

I'd like to hear how you can justify saying that the abuses by the Japanese were worse than those by the Nazis.

During the German invasion of the Soviet Union, behind each of the 3 Army Groups were Einsatzgruppen Squads from the SS. The things the Einsatzgruppen did to people would make a death Austwitz/Birkeneau sound like a relief. The Einsatzgruppen killed well over a million Jews, and tens of thousands of Soviet Political "enemies".

Everyone understands how nasty concentration camps, death marches ( late in the war ), and the various other means of extermination were, but some people fail to realize just what happened in Soviet Russia.

Nothing that the Japanese did was that bad, or at least not on nearly as big of a scale.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Let's try to avoid side-tracking the thread onto 'who commited worse attrocities during WW2, the Japanese or Germans'.  Alright? Your post was fine, Typhy, but I'm just saying that to everybody else who might have a desire to chip in on the subject.  It's perfectly fine if someone starts up a new thread, but I would like to keep that discussion somewhere not in this thread.

Thanks

-Lone

[KoS.Rebel]

The big question i keep asking and i cant figure out the answer to is why doesnt the husband just divorce her and give custody to her parents? Problem solved...but he wants her dead....why? The story must go deeper.....

[bronto]

maybe because he feels so strongly that she wouldn't want to live like this and it's cruel.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

The big question i keep asking and i cant figure out the answer to is why doesnt the husband just divorce her and give custody to her parents? Problem solved...but he wants her dead....why? The story must go deeper.....

Maybe because of the life insurance policy that he doesn't get until she DIES?  Hmmmm.[/size]

[KoS.Rebel]

I like that explanation GS. Bronto, i doubt he still feels "strongly" about her because if he did he wouldnt have a new gf etc.

[BTs_Mysterio]

I guess this explains most of the right's policies. You people are heartless bastards. Did you ever even stop to think if your wife was someone who wouldn't want to live in that state, and you knew that. Yet her parents are trying to hold her back for their own greed and closure in life. Currently I would venture to say he would send the life insurance to a medical development and research organization to prevent people like his wife falling so deeply that they wont ever get back.