sheep system

[Brutha]

Well, I've said it before and I will say it again. The reason for the lack of willingness to play CB's is that you lose sheep, points, etc for losing CB's. For some clans that is reason enough to not CB. For cb's to be played continuously we need a system where a loss isn't penalised. We need a system where losing isn't risking a lot. A system that encourages ppl to play. The sheep system does not encourage that. Neither did the former system we had, where we lost points for losing. We need a system where the poorly ranked clans can beat the better ranked clans and score a lot of points, and where the better ranked clans don't get as many points and need to CB to stay ahead. Thats what this ladder needs, not a system that quite effectivly kills of lower ranked clans so that they can't play games when they run out of sheep. You say that one can bet 1 sheep to play, but then the income might not be worth it. Playing for one sheep is...boring at best. I've played for 5 sheep in a cb, and the gain wasn't worth it in my eyes. Sorry to say that, but thats the way I see it. For ladders like RvS to survive, we need another system.

You say that with a system like this, the clans that play the most CB's will win. Why is that so wrong? Should not a clan that put effort into this be rewarded? And if the other clans feel like they are being cheated, they have to make an effort. Yes, one should award skills, but also one needs to award ppl who are trying. At the moment, we are not.

What is quite interesting is that every time someone has tried to voice a different position on the score system, we hear that "things are being worked on, changes are coming".....we don't know what these changes are, and quite frankly, it gets tiresome in the end to sit and wait for another system. We don't know if it is better or worse. Patience is a virtue, but patience go only so far....

Merged with Mauti's thread, same topic.
-Spike

[Ein]

ok Brutha... lets put it like this.... Say next season I form a clan of all noobs. Now I am a big draw so I get tons of people in my clan... say like 30-40 all registered noobs. I was smart and recruited in all time zones. When the season starts, 24 hours a day, my army of noobs are asking for a cb since we dont lose points if we lose. Asking every clan on the ladder. Getting several a day. This army of noobs might not win a lot though... Maybe 2 cbs out of the 8 they play in a day. But since they spread their losses out amongst 8 clans, the 2 actual cb's they won will give them more points than the 1 cb they lost to each clan will give them.

Now every day of the season, my noob army does this. So every day of the season, I could possibly make twice as much as any of the other clans i cb'd that day just because my clan has more members and can be on at all times of the day.

Does that seem like skill or just a NOOB ARMY from HELL. {NAH}

Coming next season {NAH}
Be afraid
Ein?

[Brutha]

And you feel that todays system is better? Also, you forget the rule that limits CB's against the same clan more than a certain amout of times(6 or 8,can't remember at the moment). So, a clan that you propose would in fact not do as well. Also, a very hypothetocal clan like this would require a lot of players willing to play for a clan like that. Are you so sure you can find that many players? As ppl have so kindly pointed out for us earlier, we are a community with a limited amount of players. I never said I had the perfect idea, I never said my idea was a finished plan. It's an idea, and one I think will work better than what we have today.

Spike, the reason I made it a new thread, was because mauti didn't want a discussion in this thread, but rather a vote.

[Ein]

As for finding players, have we gorgotten iP last season which formed and quickly grew to 20 players. Finding noobs in public games is not hard. Just ask a noob if they want to join a clan and they usually jump at the offer.(they dont get asked that much)

After considering the no loss system a bit more... I believe that it could work but you would deffinately need to set a limit on clan size to prevent {NAH} from happening and perhaps lower the limit of cb's  able to be  played against a single clan (since by capping the clansize, there will hopefully be more clans, offshoots of original larger clans.)  These caps would make it hard for any clan to cb more than any other clan based on the ammount of members they have.

But when ? had suggested limiting clan size before we were immediately shot down. And Brutha, looking at the numbers in MOD, I dont think you would be too happy about that suggestion either.

Ein

[Brutha]

You forget that we play on different ladders. So limiting the team to lets say 10 players pr ladder, or even 8 would have no effect for us(and still we could cut, at least 5 players on that list can be considered inactive). iP was a clan formed by the former players of fA, and fA formed from iN etc.

[:MoD:Shade]

Say there is a clan of noobs {NAH}.

They come to any of the higher ranked clans and ask for cb's, every 20 seconds because they have so many members.  Well if they are in fact a bunch of noobs then they won't be that hard to beat.  Basically they're just fucking themselves over by losing so much because they're increasing the gap between themselves and the best clans.

The reason a system with no punishment for a lost CB is because thoes clan that do in fact cb all the time will get ahead.  So what does this force other clans to do?  CB More.

[theweakspot]

I actually really like the sheep system.  And I also really see it as a necessary compononent to lose sheep as a consequence of losing a cb.  Afterall, what would be the point of cb'ing or being on a ladder at all.  Brutha, at first I thought your idea might be a good one, but after thinking it through a bit more it becomes obvious that it really doesn't help much.  It would only lead to those who play the most winning the most.  It would also lead to every cb being played for uber-sheep, since there is no sense holding back since you wont lose anything.

The only thing that bothers me is how some teams have managed to.... I don't want to use the word 'sucker'..... but some clans managed to persuade some clans who don't know any better to bet a large amount of sheep.  Look at the matchlists... some of the tops clan have managed to get 24, or 15 or 20 sheep from a noob clan that never had a shot.  The noob clan is out of it now and the experienced clan got a stranglehold on a top position without playing any or many clans of reasonable skill.

[*DAMN Mauti]

My post got a bit long so I gonna recap the essence of the FyS:

The FyS is a dynamical system: you can imagine it like a long distance bicycle race: at the start everyone tries to get a small advantage, but you don't look that much on the others speed. You try to keep your own speed. After a few kilometres there will be usually 3 seperated groups(sheep classes): the leading one, the midfield group and the tail group.

During the race at each group someone will go into a higher gear and try to escape(bet many sheep), the others have the option to stay at their speed or also go into a higher gear. Some can hold the new leader's speed others won't and fall back one group. May then the new groups will calm down again and ride at a medium or low gear(meaning that you can cb without losing much just playing and see who is the better) until again some guys try to break out. This goes on and on until nobody can keep the pace of the leader, which will be the winner of the race(clan with the most sheep fat).

Simplified spoken this way the FyS works.

Some tweaks that may should be done:

Just have 3 options of sheep bets so you don't get lost with all your sheep: 10 - 5 - 1 (high - medium - low gear)


ps.: the same way the current FFA system works with the only difference that you can't say today I'm going to play in a low gear - you always play in a high gear.

[Civrock]

too bad we aren't using the FyS system on the GhR Team Ladder this season already... (i know that we wanted to test it fully on the CQB Ladder first, but still... heh).

can't await to have it next season, though. the one tweak you mentioned already sounds good. i bet there are even more where this one came from...

[theweakspot]

Mauti, would there be anyway to take the current standings and apply the FyS system?  That might give us a better view of what the standing might look like according to the FyS system....  perhaps not the whole ladder, but maybe just the top 5 or so.  I think it would make more sense if we saw it in action as opposed to assuming how it would work.

I think the FyS system, as I understand it now, would provide a more equitable fashion for teams to play eachother.

[*DAMN Mauti]

Yes I can try it. 'Wait a second.

Bye,

Mauti

[theweakspot]

excuse my french, but jesus fucking christ that was a fast response.

[*DAMN Mauti]

unfortunaly I can't provide you such a fast picture with the FyS, although I can recalc the ladder I can't see the FyS values yet. I gonna ask Elandrion to do so and then I gonna post it here.

About the tweaks for the FyS system: it would include as posted above only 3 sheep bet selections and further probably also that you don't lose or win any sheep. With the "sheep bet" you just decide how serious you are going to play. So there is really no excuse not to play. If one side wants to play for serious +/- sheepfat points they can do so by selecting sheep bet amount 10 , while the other clan can see it as a practice cb and select 1. While the other clan wins/loses full amount the other clan wins/loses virtually nothing. The essential is that you always play.

However back to the topic. Recalc screenshot will be posted a bit later, but due the tweaks also the current CQB ladder would propbably look different.

Good night,

Mauti

[*DAMN Mauti]

Oh well i can offer you the standings as they approximately would be with the new FyS system assuming that all clans have played all cbs in serious mode(sheep bet 10) and not practice mode(1):

GhR Team:

cO (top 3 closely together)
[:]
zt
Po
?
Mod
GhRa
[a]

RvS ladder would be very similiar to the current standings due the little amount of played cbs.

Now I really go to bed,

Mauti

[Stripes]

Hey Ein i think u gotta check that matchlist again, iP was the most active/winning clan in season 9.

[spike]

now refresh my memory, but wasnt there a ban in there or something?

[Brutha]

I actually really like the sheep system.  And I also really see it as a necessary compononent to lose sheep as a consequence of losing a cb.  Afterall, what would be the point of cb'ing or being on a ladder at all.  Brutha, at first I thought your idea might be a good one, but after thinking it through a bit more it becomes obvious that it really doesn't help much.  It would only lead to those who play the most winning the most.  It would also lead to every cb being played for uber-sheep, since there is no sense holding back since you wont lose anything.

The sheep was never a part of my idea. It's not like we would go for the same system, but not lose the sheep. I am talking about going back to a point system, and remove the bet.

[*DAMN Mauti]

Brutha if you read closely and/or my message - the sheep bet part would be replaced with 2 options: playing serious or practice like. At all the FyS system uses the ELO system but the sheep bet decided how many ELO you actually get. Now with the two options each side can decide to play for ELO points(serious) or not(practice). So you can always play, and all stats get updated as usual just not the ELO points depending on your selection.

So if you are afraid to lose points, have your B - players on, are leading and don't want to risk your score by playing the second placed clan you can go into pracitce mode and play, you get your practice and the other clan get win/lose the ELO points as usual.

Bye,

Mauti

[:MoD:Shade]

Can I say right now that the whole thing about having your B players play is a load of crap.

No clan that I know of let's their B players play CB's without at least having one of their better players lead.  It might have been a good idea on paper but seriously no clan want's to lose a CB.  If our B players want practice we'll do a PCB not a real thing because we don't want to lose, period.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Can I say right now that the whole thing about having your B players play is a load of crap.

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly having "A" Players and "B" Players is all about.  I've never been in a clan that separated their players like that.  In |GM| we all played, we didn't NOT let someone play just because they might not be as good as someone else...same way in BTs.  I don't know, just sounds kinda lame to me.