Constructive debate.

[[:] Narauko]

OK, a flaw in the current system is there is no forced rule that states a clan must play all active clans, no matter what rank. Especially if asked continously. When I presented the idea of a min. 2 cbs vs. 1 clan, people jumped to the idea of a schedule and mapped out cbs with set times and dates...this is not what i meant. I wanted to portray a flexible ladder that merely enforces playing everyone indiscimantly. Hell make it once per clan. Even with added point incentives, like the sheep skill fat thingy, this problem will still not go away. I see it as the root cause of most of the point system changes. I believe that the core selection of rules should be revised filling every gap where people continue to find loopholes.

On another note; why not just call the finals, the end of season cup/tourney...makes more sense for what it is, and perhaps instead of the top 6 everyone is involved, entire ladder. You could then have finals matchs being played over the season with plenty of time to play.

nark.

[Typhy]

The idea of flexable BL is that people can choose who they CB and when. Let's face it, we're not the most organized bunch.

Clans come and go, the active clans on the ladder at the start of the season may be nothing like the active clans later in the season. Those of us in Western America are 9-10 hours behind those in Europe, it'd be unreasonable to require North American clans to CB European clans simply because of the time change.

On top of that, there are some CBs that'd just be asking for trouble. A CB between MP5 and BTs in Season 8 would've undoubtably had problems, due to the issues in the Season 7 Finals ( I would love to CB BTs now, though, btw. )

The more rules the make, the more rules you have to enforce, and the more rules there are to break. The easiest and best way to work is with only the nescessary rules.

If you want to encourage clans to try and CB every clan on the ladder, offer some kind of bonus points, perhaps you get 3 extra sheep at the end of the season, so if you CB 20 clans, you get 60 sheep, where as if you CB 5 clans, you only get 15. Just an idea.

We're not getting paid to play, it's about fun, being 'required to CB' a clan is moving away from fun.

[Ein]

Or perhaps offer a new rule that deducts sheep for not participating. For example if a clan has not cb'd in the last week, they lose 5 sheep. This will keep all clans actively CBing and with a limit on how many times they can CB an individual clan, this would eventually force clans to CB clans that they otherwise would have snaked away from.

Just a suggestion.
Ein

[Typhy]

I still don't like it, to much structure. The reason things work with a bunch of disorganized bums like us is because we can choose who and when we CB.

[[:] Narauko]

Did i say you can't choose? I said...perhaps for the last time...a min. amount of cbs required for each clan to be played against each clan.

I live in UK and have no problem beating the best of USA players on a USA host. Hell i have to live with lag constantly otherwise i don't get a game.

How many euro clans are we talking about...in total...5...10 on all ladders? Compared to the 30 odd US clans...and you can't simply arrange to cb someone at the weekend when the time off is avaible to all. At the moment [?] are currently arranging with various Euro clans date and time to cb, so we get to play everyone on the ladder, it may be our choice to do so.

Surly not cbing another US clan simply because they rank higher can be seen differenatly?

[cO.Vickedson]

I still don't like it, to much structure. The reason things work with a bunch of disorganized bums like us is because we can choose who and when we CB.

But Typhy, do you really believe a "league" exists if there are not even the slightest requirements of participation?

It's really hard to argue that a clan should be crowned champion of anything without facing all possible competition.  You obviously have a problem with the notion of being "forced" to do anything.  I admire that, I was young and idealistic once myself and it sucks to think that there are others in place to dictate what you consider "fun".

I on the other hand honestly believe that its possible for all of us to have a good time within a structure of rules and regulations.

But having it set from the jump that in order to participate in finals or win the title a clan must face all represented competition is hardly a "rule" in my eyes.  I see it as something that is imperative to running a league....without it we're just playing alot of pick-up games.  Games which we all may love to do at other times, but games that don't belong in the DBL.

My clan has taken plenty of licks already this season and have become better because of it....that's what happens during the course of a season.  When I look at the ladder and see clans with records of 1-0, or 0-1, or 0-0 I ask, "what are you doing here?"  Why waste our time?  There are plenty of clans out there that do not cb Alpha Squad, SIX, SOG come to mind right away and there is nothing wrong with that.  But if you're going to paly here you should be prepared to take on anyone........Note that I didn't say "anytime" but you really need to be prepared to face all if you even consider yourself to be apart of this.

[Typhy]

But Typhy, do you really believe a "league" exists if there are not even the slightest requirements of participation?

In a true "league," we would have prizes ( specifically money ) for the winners, or we'd be being paid to participate.

I'm not arguing about this because I'm at all worried that it'll pass through. I know the admin team and Mauti are sensible enough to know that it'd never work. I'm simply trying to explain to you how stupid it is.

I admire that, I was young and idealistic once myself and it sucks to think that there are others in place to dictate what you consider "fun

For starters, I'd tend to think of you as the idealistic one for thinking that people as disorganized as us could handle being forced to play every clan. The whole "Super Finals" bit was created because we were to disorganized to play one, predetermined clan during the course of an entire week!

My clan has taken plenty of licks already this season and have become better because of it

We've already CBed Dr, the current #1 ( in a spectacular 2v2, which, while it was a flukish CB, was one of the best CBs I've played at RVS ). My clan and I choose to CB the top clans, other clans shouldn't be forced to do it. So far this season, I haven't seen any problems with clans not CBing because of their skill level.

  live in UK and have no problem beating the best of USA players on a USA host. Hell i have to live with lag constantly otherwise i don't get a game.

I determined several days ago that I won't CB on a European host. Nothing against Europeans, I love all you little bastards. However, living in Juneau Alaska, it is simply unplayable. I have to lead a player by 20-30 feet, and I have to fire about 2 seconds ahead of time, making it physically impossible to hit quick shots. It's simply not fun. I can take a 200 ping, I can even take a 300 ping, once things get in the 400 range, things get unplayable. Now that I'm done rambling on, the point still stands. It is unreasonable to expect the people in this community, whatever the reason may be; resentment, lag, or just the fact that we're disorganized, to CB every clan on the ladder.

In a perfect world, it'd work, in this community, it wouldn't have a prayer.

[[:] Narauko]

 

thats me the rest of hte clan just watch for safety reasons.

[BTs_Mysterio]

It simply won't work, I would however like to see what people besides ? think.

[Ein]

In a true "league," we would have prizes ( specifically money ) for the winners, or we'd be being paid to participate.

Well, I personally have competed in lots of events for the honor of winning a plastic trophy. No mountains of cash... just a piece of plastic. Its not the award that makes a true league... its the competition.

For starters, I'd tend to think of you as the idealistic one for thinking that people as disorganized as us could handle being forced to play every clan. The whole "Super Finals" bit was created because we were to disorganized to play one, predetermined clan during the course of an entire week! 

This is why i suggested the Loose Your Sheep system... I like to call it the LYS system for short. If your clan doesnt battle in a week, you loose 5 sheep. Not that hard. That way, clans can choose weather they are up for playing the season or would rather jus keep getting 5 sheep deducted every week. It gives clans the option to cb. They dont have to be active in the league but they're gonna be penalized for it.


Oh well.. as you said

I'm not arguing about this because I'm at all worried that it'll pass through

Ein

[BTs_Mysterio]

<sings "For the love of money" (the O'Jays)>

I think loosing for 1 week is extreme. Some people can't do 1 per week, but do them in bursts. I prefer those people be encouraged to CB in every-way, not push them away.

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

This is why i suggested the Loose Your Sheep system... I like to call it the LYS system for short. If your clan doesnt battle in a week, you loose 5 sheep. Not that hard. That way, clans can choose weather they are up for playing the season or would rather jus keep getting 5 sheep deducted every week. It gives clans the option to cb. They dont have to be active in the league but they're gonna be penalized for it.


Oh well.. as you said

Ein

Hmmmm...Sounds like what we(BTs) did in the old BTL system.. If you didnt play in "X" amount of time( like if you didnt play a cb within 7 days) you lost a rank or 2 and if you didnt show up for a sceduled cb ( one that you challenged and they accepted on the site to do on a sertain time/day.. not planed out by the ladder.. but planned out by the clans each time using the challenge system) you lost the cb.

[[:] Narauko]

where did BTL go anyway?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

where did BTL go anyway?

It's being remade into the MGL (Mac Gaming League).  The BTL was the BattleTek League, hosted and ran by BTs (the BattleTek Squadron).  BTs decided that the running of a new league should be done by multiple clans, not just one, so they turned the BTL into the MGL, with the help and support of some other clans.  The MGL is still not up and running due to some time constraints of "real life" for the people writing it. 

[*DAMN Mauti]

Just a short response: at all if I look at all ladders, more than enough cbs have been played to justify the rank, however to respond to the original problem of some clans refusing to play some certain clans.

I think if a clan just doesn't want to play with you, you even don't get them to play you with penalties. - the only way were they have no other choice is in the finals.

Penalty for being inactive - well I don't see a problem in overall activity on the big ladders and one big problem is that some clans simply get boycotted.  It happened in the past that clans just didn't play a certain clan for various reasons, now with penalty points they would even get hit harder. At all I think we don't have a problem of activity so why make it more restricted?

Bye,

Mauti

[[:] Narauko]

Because theres no reason to say no?

So [?] can cb the lower ranking clans and win the mainseason...does that not sound like a cheap title? I merely say it because you guys are trying to block the loop wholes that people find and abuse.

[Civrock]

So [?] can cb the lower ranking clans and win the mainseason...does that not sound like a cheap title?

you know... there was this poll... that would've exactly prevented this from happening. some clans, including yours, voted against a more skill-based system for this season already, though...

[[:] Narauko]

and thats making clans a) active b) not winning the season on just lower ranked clan wins?

[[:] Mr. T]

I agree with many of the points above about time zones and stuff. It's just too difficult to force a global group of people to all get together and play a minimum number of CBs.

Plus, it's rather complicated to keep track of the rules we have now. To add more rules and to have to keep a list of who my clan has CBed and how many times would simply be too much. I only have 4 guys in my clan and to get the minimum of 3 on to have a CB is sometimes tough. We CB when we can, but we can't CB everyone. If you were to enforce this rule, we couldn't compete in the GR Team Ladder and I would have to close the clan or only register for the CQB Ladder. This is something I don't want to do.

The clans that won't play won't make the finals... or, if they do make the finals, they're going to be forced to play whatever clan they were avoiding without knowing their style of play. Not CBing during the season may help your sheep score, but it won't help you win the season.

[Ein]

So [?] can cb the lower ranking clans and win the mainseason...does that not sound like a cheap title?

you know... there was this poll... that would've exactly prevented this from happening. some clans, including yours, voted against a more skill-based system for this season already, though...

I know what your saying, Civic... however, my clan is still set on the no changes to any rules durring the course of the season. May I remind you back to a thread before the season began where Mysterio mentioned that if the DAMN team was not completely ready to start the season, they should hold off until all changes were made and the Season was completely ready to start instead of rushing into the season that might not be at 100% yet.

He was assured that the league was at 100% and the season started. Maybe this new point system would have been a nice thing to mention then and only state that the league was at 95% at that time.

Im fine with the current system and am looking forward to the new system next season. But even with the new system, Besides the finals (where you can only possibly cb 1/4 of clans involved) it is still very hard to get cb's with all clans involved in the league. So how can clans claim to be a league champion when they have not played all the teams in the league?

Ein