Iraq's First General Election Coverage!

[Abe 2.0]

Brutha,
Your first mistake is to simply assume that I am American: Nothing I wrote in my post suggests that. "you start with an illogical premise and proceed perfectly logically to an illogical conclusion" (I don't like Rumsfeld much, but that quote is dynamite). I'm actually half-american, half-european, spent the majority of my life in Europe and am currently living in its center. I neither watch fox news, nor do I vote for Bush. What I do think, however, is that european opinion towards Iraq is shaped much more by a dislike for the US and its policies than a genuine understanding of what is best for Iraq and its people. And this is reflected in the media, when the terrorists are depicted as 'rebels/insurgents/freedom-fighters' who are simply fighting against the occupation of their country. Lets assume that there are 200,000 people fighting the americans. Do you think that this reflects the will of a country of 25 million better than the millions who chose to vote on sunday?
My media is making me blind to the truth? I dont know how to take this. For one thing, much of "my media" is european. Ever stop to think that just as american media tends to bend things towards one side of the arguement for ideological reasons, a lot of the media in europe does the same thing-just in the other direction. My guess is no, that you never even thought about looking at your media sources critically.
I am not a bush supporter and I think that much of the aftermath of the iraq war was dealt with very poorly, which is why we are in this situation today. But I believe that in order to make the best of the current situation, you have to recognize that the people planting bombs and attacking police and US soldiers in iraq don't want the same thing for the country as the majority of iraqis, who, although they arent planting bombs or killing people, have hopes, dreams and aspirations for their country as well. You obviously didnt understand what I meant by this despite quoting it:
 

....people really need to understand that this isnt about the US scoring PR  points, but about a country trying to get back to normal after more than three decades of bullshit.

[Brutha]

Well, first off I'll have to apologise for being wrong, and jump to conclusions here. What you wrote made me assume you were living in the U.S.

My post was directed toward you as an American so yes, therefore I start with an illogical premise. However, when you say that the european public oppinion is shaped by the dislike for US and its policies, do you think that the US policies in Iraq is correct and the european oppinion was wrong? Not that we will ever get that answer. Do I think that 200,000 insurgents reflect a population of 25 million? No, but they represent a lot more than 200,000. To believe that these 200,000 are all that are opposed to the occupation is being blind. The problem is this, when there is so much general distrust towards the current administration, that 65 % of the sunni population decides to stay away from the election, something is wrong.

When it comes to the media in europe. 2 things. I question everything in the media, I never trust only one source and I watch CNN in addition to BBC and other norwegian news sources.

Again, it seems that you assume that only 200,000 are opposed to the occupation. I agree in that most of the population most likely want peace, but is it so far fetched that these insurgents may have supporters that exceed millions of ppl? Perhaps they want to build up their country their own way, and not being told by the U.S. how to do it?

[Abe 2.0]

I believe that 200,000 people believe they can get the americans out by staging violent attacks on the iraqi police/national guard and US troops, without any concern about how many iraqi civilians are killed in these attacks. I also believe that several million iraqis believe they can get the americans out by voting in a somewhat representative government. Even if you will find a lot of sympathy for the terrorists goals (i.e. getting america to leave) among ordinary iraqis, i doubt you will find a lot sympathy for their methods, since they are the ones bearing the brunt of their violence. I'm appaled at how many european (as well as american and other) anti-war people sympathize with the so called insurgents, when they are the ones preventing the emergence of a peaceful and just society in iraq. They seem far more concerned with making the americans look bad, than with giving the iraqis what we in the west take for granted.

[Brutha]

Being anti-war does not mean we sympathise with the insurgents. Personally, I sympathise with the ppl that are suffering as a result of this. I am not speaking up to make America look bad, I am speaking up because I think things are wrong. I am also appaled, but rather at how many Americans who think I hate them for speaking up against them. I personally think things are being handeled the wrong way. I think this election was a farse. I hope I am wrong, but I fear I am right. If this blows up in Americas face, I am not the one to come running forth saying "told ya so", hopefully I can breath easily and say: "GJ, I was wrong".

[c| Spetsnaz.]

I don't recall anyone supporting the guerillas, or anything of the like.

Let us be honest, the US does not give a fuck about the people of Iraq, and never has. Our goals in Iraq are to promote our own self interests. This has been repeatedly demonstrated throughout the course of history, from the simultaneous armament of Iran and Iraq in the 1980's that facilitated a war in which more than 500,000 people were murdered, to the 1991 invasion in which the Iraqi populous was devastated by aerial bombardment, not to mention the years of sanctions that claimed the lives of almost a million people.

Ok Saddam was evil, but no more evil than the war criminals which currently occupy the highest offices in America.

The election does give hope to a desolate place, but it holds about as much legitimacy as the 2004 Presidential elections. In other words, they are a farce in which the populous was duped into believing that their vote means something. 

The best thing the United States could do, is get the fuck out of Iraq, and let the Iraqi people figure things out for themselves, Iraq is the cradle of civilization let us not forget. For more check out this article http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/10/28/overstretch/index_np.html

 We have no business being there no matter the lies conjured up by our "Fuhrer".

We are being governed by pathological liars and psychopaths, who find power in exaggerating threats and promoting fear, and don't give a fuck about human life, as long as the DOW Jones is high. The hilarious part of it all is that a majority of the population buys it, just as erosion of support for the nazi war machine did not occur until 1943, after Stalingrad.

 

["Sixhits"]

Abe 2.0
"What I do think, however, is that european opinion towards Iraq is shaped much more by a dislike for the US and its policies than a genuine understanding of what is best for Iraq and its people."

You start from a flawed premise: that the purpose of invading and occupying Iraq was to liberate the country from a dicator and bring democracy. This is implict in your comments suggesting what we are doing is best for Iraq. You know this premise is false. We invaded Iraq with the causus beli of self defence -- stopping Iraq's program of WMD development and utilization as well as severing a major source of Al Quada funding. And as you know, there were no WMDs and Iraq had no credible links to Al Quada. To put it clearer: we invaded because we were told that Iraq actively, currently and directly threated our homeland. Now we are atill dying over there, but the causus beli has been proven false. Instead, the causus beli has been ret-coned into bringing democracy and freedom. But we never signed up for that. And even if we did, we don't support the way it has been executed.

Democracy was not in the cards at the start. At best it was seen as potential benefit of responding to the "Iraq crisis". Basically, we make shit up as we go along. Most of the world has caught onto this.  So you might be able to understand why the Europeans don't believe that what we are doing over there is in Iraq's best interest, and you might understand why they don't like what America has done in general. 

indeed, you confabulate their dislike for our actions with a dislike for us as a people. I think if you put the question to them more susinctly you'll find they still like Americans they just hate what we've choosen to do.

"...anti-war people sympathize with the so called insurgents, when they are the ones preventing the emergence of a peaceful and just society in iraq."

Here you are confabulating again: that the "anti-war" crowd (which I'll happily call the reality based crowd) sympathizes with murderers and anti-American forces and that such forces are preventing the emergence of a peaceful Iraq.

We don't sympathize with them. We don't cheer when another one of our marines is blown to pieces or when local civilians are beheaded. Fuck you for suggesting so. I have a friend in iraq right now and I do not want him coming home in a body bag.

What we do feel, and think, and say, is that we have no business being there. That is reality. We say that you can't bring demcracy at the end of a gun and can't foster freedom while pushing you boot on their neck. That is reality. We think that the insurgancy is a reaction to our actions in Iraq. That is reality. Saying this truth doens't make their actions right, nor does it suggest sympathy with them. But it's reality. We have reaped what we sowed. Violence in response to our incompetent, brutal foreign policy -- a foreign policy alien to our core American values of promoting rights, enacting justice, and promoting freedom yet wrapped in those words just the same.

"But I believe that in order to make the best of the current situation, you have to recognize that the people planting bombs and attacking police and US soldiers in iraq don't want the same thing for the country as the majority of iraqis."

We get it. But that's not what we're responding to. We're responding to the fact that our leaders lied to us, sent our friends to war, got them in the middle of shit and then excepted us to cheer on cue. Well, real Americans are willing to desent when they disagree with the actions of their government. Whether it was fundamentalist politicians on the right during the Clinton years, tearing him down at every moment, or progressives like me, all Americans have the right to say we desent with the actions of our government because our government represents us, directly. And when my government lies us into war, kills tens of thousands of civilians, hundres of our own troops, destroys the world's goodwill for us, replaces one strongman with another, starts chipping away my civil liberties and worse, far worse, uses and promotes the use of torture -- well I don't fucking care what the results are, or what the Iraqis want, or what the right wants -- it's all fruit from the rotten tree. No good can come from evil, no matter how well intentioned, no matter how glorious the endgame.

And so to appologists like you I say crawl back into your hole. Quit sniping at us while we try to take our country back from evil and devistation. Back from those who would appoint an attorney general who issued rules that condoned torture, back from those who would appoint a Sec of State who failed to defend our country from terrorist in 2001 when her role was national security advisor and failed to stand up for the truth during the march to war, and back from those who think that war is good, that killing is fun, that freedom rings when you fire you gun, or roll your tanks, or bomb the cities. I fundamentally disagree with them, and you.

[Abe 2.0]

Sixhits,
Nice reply.
Let's take it from the top. I never meant to imply that the point of the whole iraq blunder was to free and oppressed nation or remove a dictator. We all know that it was more about perceived strategic interests and the like than about spreading freedom in the middle east. I never assumed that the US government had any noble purpose in invading iraq and nothing i wrote indicated that I think that way. The only premise from which i started was that at this point, we are too far up shit's creek already and that leaving iraq in the situation it is in right now would be as bad for america as it would be for iraq. Cutting our loses and running away at this point would be catastrophic- far worse than any 'threat' there may have been before our invasion. We have dug ourselves a nice hole over there; now its time to figure out how to dig ourselves out. I dont think leaving an entire country to the jihadists is an option worth considering. While there is a good argument to be made about iraq being a mistake (in my opinion, the real mistake was not having any meaningful plan for what to do after we invaded), its slightly besides the point of this debate. I will gladly agree with most of what you say about making shit up as we go along and the whole rational for the war being bullshit. But i think it is besides the point if we are talking about where to go from here. Crossing your arms and saying "i told you so" doesnt help anyone. 
I live in Europe and I can tell you that a lot of people's dislike for americans goes far beyond what is going on iraq or what our government does. All you have to do observe how quickly the debate jumps from iraq to junk food, shitty education, too much TV, obsession with religion and patriotism, to understand that this is about more than foreign policy choices of our government.
As for the prospect of democracy and what you perceive as reality, I suggest you look at post war germany and japan. Plenty of people argued that these societies were fundamentally undemocratic and pointed to their long history of autocratic rule, yet when people there were given a chance to vote for their own governments, the result was rather impressive. I think it would be hard to argue 50 years later that germans and japanese are somehow pre-disposed to be fascists. Maybe it is a bit harsh to argue that antiwar people sympathise with the 'resistance', but when you argue that their actions are an understandable reaction to US policy, it sounds like you empathize with their motives to some extent.  What I was trying to say in my previous posts is that I have more understanding and sympathy for normal iraqis who are trying to make something of the current situation and live normal lives, than for the terrorists. I feel that its the ordinary people whose interests we tend to overlook in favor of some sort of romantic notion that the insurgents are fighting for their freedom from occupation and that they are simply reacting to bad foreign policy on the part of the US. When I watch the news and see these assholes described as resistants, I cant help but think of the millions of people who are simply trying to live normal lives and making a difference by voting in the elections, rather than by blowing up the polling stations. Thats all.
I'm not a bush apologist and i think you misread much of what I am trying to say. I'm not arguing that the invasion of iraq was a noble enterprise or that what we are doing over there is going to change the middle east. I too have freinds who are currently in iraq and I certainly want them to come back in one piece. I feel like puking every time I think about how many kids my age have died over there and how many have come back maimed or wounded. I too think the people in the administration are a  bunch of incompetent ideologues who would rather send more of our soldiers into a shithole like iraq, rather than admit to their mistakes. I dislike bush and his whole gang as much as you and I am glad to see that people are reacting to their incompetence and their stupidity. My vote last November reflected this. At the same time, I realize that there is no way to turn back the clock and reverse past mistakes, which means that we will have to figure out some way of turning iraq into a functioning state and digging ourselves out of this hole. Leaving iraq the way it is now, is a bigger threat to our security than Saddam ever was and you know this as well as me. No matter what we think of the decision to go to war two years ago, this is a time to look forward. We owe this as much to ourselves as to the people in iraq, who put their life on the line by voting last week.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

OMG guys!  Have any of you ever heard of "brevity"  I have neither the time nor patience to read through all of your 1-page replies to everything.  "KISS" from my military days comes to mind in this situation...KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!  Nothing against any of you, but geez, GET A LIFE![/size]

Disclaimer--Anything GhostSniper says or does this week is under the influence of Demerol and Tylox from his surgery....lol[/size]

[BTs_Mysterio]

OMG guys!  Have any of you ever heard of "brevity"  I have neither the time nor patience to read through all of your 1-page replies to everything.  "KISS" from my military days comes to mind in this situation...KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!  Nothing against any of you, but geez, GET A LIFE![/size]

Disclaimer--Anything GhostSniper says or does this week is under the influence of Demerol and Tylox from his surgery....lol[/size]

I would have read it too if only Abe knew the return key and used it more frequently. If the point of yours was the US has to "dig" itself out of Iraq, that isn't acceptable. The US caused a mudslide and has to dig the whole country out, not just a tunnel for the troops to crawl out. Democracy doesn't work in the middle east yet. These people have chosen a path where they will hold their spiritual ties close. They will vote with their group and if they have the most people they will win.

Im surprised no one has posted about Bush's budget yet, that slashes programs across the board. Of course that includes cutting the benefits to your veterans who helped maintain your freedom when it really was in jeopardy.

["Sixhits"]

OMG!! I have to read an entire page of text!
I discover yet another reason why you voted for Bush.

"I never assumed that the US government had any noble purpose in invading iraq and nothing i wrote indicated that I think that way."   
      I felt this was implict in your statements.

"We are too far up shit's creek already and that leaving iraq in the situation it is in right now would be as bad for america as it would be for iraq. Cutting our loses and running away at this point would be catastrophic- far worse than any 'threat' there may have been before our invasion."
      History has proven you wrong at least twice - that's off the top of my head. Vietnam and Algiers. Cutting your losses is the best move when you realize you have nothing left to gain from your current actions. I have no desire to see another generaion of American youths ravaged by war for no strategic gain. 

"We have dug ourselves a nice hole over there; now its time to figure out how to dig ourselves out."
      Leave now. Transports are still easy to come by.

"I dont think leaving an entire country to the jihadists is an option worth considering."
      We would not be leaving them to the jihadists, but rather allowing them to forge their own way. If it is the path of democracy, so be it. If not, so be it. It is not our concern, just as it should never have been.

"While there is a good argument to be made about iraq being a mistake (in my opinion, the real mistake was not having any meaningful plan for what to do after we invaded), its slightly besides the point of this debate."
      No, it is the core of the debate. To flex a gambling term, why throw good money after bad? If the endevour was poisoned from the beginning, which I atest to it was, then we are just wasting lives for lies.

"Crossing your arms and saying "i told you so" doesnt help anyone."
      I'm not suggesting we cross our arms and whine, I'm suggesting we do what is right.

"All you have to do observe how quickly the debate jumps from iraq to junk food, shitty education, too much TV, obsession with religion and patriotism, to understand that this is about more than foreign policy choices of our government."
     All of which relates to abstract Americaness rather than the people. I am British, Canadian and American. I know numerous Europeans and read their papers when in English. I will debate this point: they don't hate "us", they hate "them - the them that corporatises their culture, homogenizes their food sources, and drags nations to war. Ask a few of your neighbors if you will: do they hate America or its people?

"As for the prospect of democracy and what you perceive as reality, I suggest you look at post war germany and japan."
      There are significant - and poorly noted - differences between the peoples of Iraq and those of Nazi Germany and Emperial Japan. i'll focus on Germany. Few remember that Hitler was elected at first, but fewer still remember that war was not something the German people wanted - not against France, not against England, and certainly not against Russia. Even more remarkable, by war' end most Germans had grown to accept that their nation's actions were wrong. They themselves understood. It made it easier to bear the burden of occupation. But more importantly, there was a significant enemy still in the field against the Germans - the Russians - and no German wanted to be rule by them. Further, the cultures of the West vary little in a fundamental way. And, don't forget, they had experienced Democracy during their lifetime. As for Japan, one fact stands out: they revered their Emperor as a God. When they surrendered, and the Emperor said that the lowest American was now higher than the Emperor, there was a implicit understanding that to obey the American occupation was to obey the Emperor. And don't forget this fact as well: both Germany and Japan were free of ethnic strife.

None of these sorts of what I'll call "hand holds" exist in Iraq. There is no hisory of democracy. There is no culural affinity. There is no central and unifying authority who tells them to obey us.

What there is is a wide range of ethic peoples. A wide range of authority figures. There is no "outer enemy" other than us. And thus I argue the best way - the only way - we can help them further is to leave them be. We have become the problem.

"I think it would be hard to argue 50 years later that germans and japanese are somehow pre-disposed to be fascists."
      As for this I argue that fasicism knows no limits of race, culture, or nation. Today America is a neo-facist state -- much like interwar Germany was in the mid-to-late 30's. We can debate this point in detail later, if you want.

"Maybe it is a bit harsh to argue that antiwar people sympathise with the 'resistance', but when you argue that their actions are an understandable reaction to US policy, it sounds like you empathize with their motives to some extent."
      Don't confabulate what something sounds like with what it is. I do understand how the insurgents feel, to a certain extent, because I can imagine what it would be like if some foreign force conquered America tomorrow, arrested Bush, and put thier own strongman in office. As much as I hate Bush I would fight and kill to have him back and at least to kick out the occupiers.

"At the same time, I realize that there is no way to turn back the clock and reverse past mistakes, which means that we will have to figure out some way of turning iraq into a functioning state and digging ourselves out of this hole. Leaving iraq the way it is now, is a bigger threat to our security than Saddam ever was and you know this as well as me. No matter what we think of the decision to go to war two years ago, this is a time to look forward. We owe this as much to ourselves as to the people in iraq, who put their life on the line by voting last week."
      It's much tougher to respond to this, because I agree with you in many ways. I hate to leave Iraq - we've broken it, and we should fix it. But, and this is the key qualifier, those that would do the fixing as the same who broke it -- and we know their agenda. They have no interest in helping those people, they don't care for our soldier's sacfrices. They care for their own warped goals - goals I cannot fathom. But they have done nothing in years of war to illustrate a desire to help them, or us, and let alone the ablity to do so. So how can I advocate actions that are the same as their own? I cannot. And if that means letting Iraq go so be it.We owe the, but are not capable of paying down that debit under our current leadership.


Regards


And the buget? Again, bush shows his compassion for our troops during time of war by slashing their benefits. Oh, and he's playing a shell game by failing to include the cost of the war, of his proposed Social Security destruction, and making his pro-wealthy people tax cuts perminant. What a human failure that man is.

[*DAMN Bondo]

I wholeheartedly agree with Ghost Sniper on this one, good lord. Of course I'm always under the influence of medication, I wouldn't live life any other way 

[BFG]

And the buget? Again, bush shows his compassion for our troops during time of war by slashing their benefits. Oh, and he's playing a shell game by failing to include the cost of the war, of his proposed Social Security destruction, and making his pro-wealthy people tax cuts perminant. What a human failure that man is.

Yeah i was pretty shocked and disgusted at that as well... Looks like Bush and Blair are going hand in hand down the path of taxing and fucking up the poorest and most in need, while helping and aiding those with to much money and not enough common sense. As for the Cuts in education, and health care .... well im just waiting for somebody to say "doesn't matter because i have private health care and pay for private education"

Its sick, look after the wealthy and powerful, and fuck everyone else up.

[Daf|Raven™]

You know what I read about in some magazine article? I heard that some people from other countries were coming into iraq just for the heck of it to fight the americans. They weren't even iraqis. it was so gay, they were going in to stop elections, kills u.s. soldiers and all this other crap to ruin everything. It was really gay, they had no business to be there and wanted to fight for the heck of fighting. Too bad the Rainbowsix Team isn't real, they could do some real damage to stop terrorism. Maybe the U.N. should be supported with Tom Clancy's book to find out a way to get all this stuff out of the way. Bloody americans, bloody bush. I could vote but i hated him and karey, lol. I just hope these elections actually do something, but Irag is like a battle ground now, I don't know if these new leaders in Irag will be able to do anything if people are allowing these terrorists to keep entering the country to fight.

Oh yeah, I have another thing to say, sorry for 2 posts in a row. My friend's dad was a sniper  in desert storm. And he had a lock on Saddam Hussein (spelling?) and all he needed was the command to fire and assassinate him. How gay is that? All this stuff could've been over with a couple years ago, but noooooo.  Oh well, maybe they'll learn to get things out of the way before they get worse from now on.


Combined your posts together.  In the future, click the 'Modify' button, to add on to, or delete stuff, from your post.  Like the flagrent use of the term 'gay', in your first post.

-Lone

[BFG]

All this stuff could've been over with a couple years ago, but noooooo

I don't think shooting Saddam would have solved the problem - there are 1001 people just waiting to take his place... but then again yes that might have removed one of the fake reasons for invading this time round so point taken.

[*DAMN Bondo]

Raven, I see nothing "gay" about anything you said. It is neither happy nor homosexual. Gay does not mean stupid or bad, unless you are a homophobic prick. You sound like a complete moron using the word in that sense.

[Daf|Raven™]

Thanx, bronto, i really appreciate that comment =D

However, why do people call each a "fuck", i mean come on it's a verb, not a noun. in other words we all say frases and things that are breaking the real meaning of the word, you're just running off topic by commenting about something small like that. lol.


And you're pissing me off in a hurry because  this is the second time i've had to combine your posts.  Did you just ignore what i said on this very same page, about clicking 'Modify' instead of double posting?  It  really isnt that difficult of a concept. 

-Lone

["Sixhits"]

Why do people call someone an "asshole", Raven?

[BTs_Mysterio]

This isn't quite the course one should take on these forums. Just drop it raven and admit a fault. Anyone who calls anyone a fuck is a idiot. Just like those who are redneck texans still using racial slurs.

[Daf|Raven™]

Lol mysterio I'm not trying to get too deep into it. Sorry for bring it up  so anyone heard any news about how Iraq is doing now? All I hear about is well... a lot of things on how Bush is going to repay the debt on the war. It's sad how we just got out of debt, and now we attack Iraq leaving the U.S. in a new debt. Maybe Bush and his new rich buddies should chip in some cash 
Maybe, just maybe, we should have a tax for rich people to pay towards our debt i mean, they need to get rid of their money some how. Or even like what britain did, hire rich people to run our armies so they can pay for the troops and all. so the government doesn't have to pay for it. and in the long run we can get rid of some of them when they die. bwahahaha. okay maybe that's stupid, cause it's why brittain lost most of it's wars. And how is Iraq gunna pay us back if we help them rebuild? it just puts us in more debt... I bet, I bet the U.S. is thinking of helping Iraq rebuild itself in return for oil, and the U.S. started all this on purpose and want Iraq to go in more damage and the more that is done the more oil we will get in return and and... yeah.... okay. There's just too many scandals these days. How do we know the new elected leader of Iraq won't be lying to the Iraqies and will became another Saddam? Our world is so screwed up...