Iraq's First General Election Coverage!

[*DAMN Bondo]

Sal, I don't restrict myself to US only and certainly not to right-wing only sources. Even the Arabic stations are largely finding the election to be important and newsworthy rather than a joke.

Turnout rates are based on eligible voting population, not registered voting population, so that means the approximately 60% number is of all eligible Iraqi voters did vote, not 60% of those who registered.

["Sixhits"]

Interesting tid bit that I'd enjoy hearing Ghostsniper's opinion on:

Been reading a book called "Tactics of the Crescent Moon: Militant Muslim Combat Methods" by H. John Poole. I haven't finished it yet. I'm into Chechnya. You can look at/buy it here.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?pwb=1&ean=9780963869579

Basic purpose of the book is to provide officer, troops, and anyone interested with current and historical insight into the tatics of our current enemies, the militant muslims. A quick overview of their tatical origins is this: a blend of classical oriental rules of engagement (strike where they are weak, always cover your true objectives, avoid cauluties, use fear, retreat in the face of superior foes, and ambush), hassassin (sp) inflitration techniques and suicidal willingness and an emphisis on light infantry.

This means they don't fight like us. We like firepower, destroying their strength, and the open field of battle. It also means that whenever we think they will do one thing they are likely to avoid doing it.

The thought crossed my mind that these bastards would never actually attack on election day. This is because it breaks all of their rules. They would have been attacking into our strength, announcing their objective, taking high casulties, have few aveanues to reatreat and no chance to set up ambushes. The only thing they could certainly do was instill fear. But they had more or less done that in the preceeding weeks. Plus, if they attacked their cost would be high.

So I don't think they (if you can really argue there is a "they" in Iraq) seriously intended to contest on election day.

They did the same thing around the "transfer of sovereignty". Lots of noise about doom and gloom but nothing came of it. It was in the following weeks that they stepped up their efforts and caused harm.

[BFG]

 A 10year old Palestinian girl was shot yesterday in the head from an israeli 'lookout' post. She was In a UN run school playground - lining up with her class mates waiting to go back inside. [/b]

And you support the israeli army doing this? This is their 'fight against terror' . 1. she was not a terrorist. 2. she was not a threat. 3. there was a fucking cease fire, 4. You will probably never have heard about this because of your fucked up media. 5. When this happens and people continue to support the Israeli illegal occupation and the continued oppression of Palestinians.

Ive i was that girls father right now i would be wanting to rip the piece of shit that killed my daughter to shreds. I wouldn't care if it was Hamas or Hizbollah,. This is what happens THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS. YOU ARE NOT FIGHTING TERRORISM YOU ARE CREATING HATRED AND MORE VIOLENCE.

[Abe 2.0]

I wish you'd lost your composure in the same way when Israeli children get killed by suicide bombers, mortars or homemade rockets.....but i guess their part of the evil zionist occupation machinery and don't deserve any sympathy.
And if you got your info from sources other than aljazeera.net and jihad.com, you'd know that it isnt clear at this point who killed the girl:

The 4 P.M. Rafah shooting killed Nuran Dib, who was struck in the head by a bullet. A second child, a 7-year-old girl, was hit in the shoulder. Both girls were at the UNRWA school at the time, and since the school is directly opposite and about 500 meters from the IDF's Termit outpost on the Philadelphi corridor, the immediate assumption on the Palestinian side was that troops had fired.

But an IDF inquiry found that no Israeli troops in the area had fired their weapons and suspicions fell on Palestinians who were firing guns in celebration of their successful pilgrimage to Mecca, as stray bullets fired in the air could have landed on the Rafah schoolyard where the girls were playing.

I'm not saying that the Israeli military are angels and I know full well that a lot of israeli soldiers are racist thugs, but I havent seen many Hamas tribunals that try their militants for killing women and children and not respecting the rules of warfare. It's too bad that you can't think objectively about these things and see past the brainwashing that the guardian and independant give you on a daily basis, because you seem to be intelligent, interested and concerned about these issues. Before you talk about fucked up media, keep in mind that I live in Europe, have access to the internet and probably read a lot of the same sources as you.

[BFG]

Jeeze im not some kind of bloody anti Jewish nutter, and i tottally agree there is no difference between israeli children and palestinian children getting killed in this stupid conflict, other than one side is being killed by terrorst groups, the other by an army... It just seems like a lot of people i see a very big difference between the activities of a 'highly trained' army and individual terrorist groups. I find neither acceptable,- both disgust me but i expect more from the israeli army, and little from terrorist groups prepared to attack civilians.

Perhaps in future i should expect nothing better from the Israeli army than from Hamas?

Ok given the previous incidents of Israeli's shooting Children, or UN workers, or Camera men etc i jumped the gun and i made the assumption that it defiantly was a bullet from an israeli soldier. thats wrong and yes there are questions over where the bullet came from... I was aware the IDF was apparently "investigating" but given previous investigations i wasn't exactly expecting them to come back with the response "oops sorry our mistake" when they still wont admit to other cases of intentional killing - by snipers or bulldozers.

I wouldn't exactly describe the guardian as brainwashing but thats your opinion, and certainly not my only source of news.

 I am just disgusted and frustrated by the continuous  violence we see and this common theme of "a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye" sickens me. After a while it is very easy to jump to conclusions when time and time the outcome has been the same.

[*DAMN Bondo]

BFG, it is hard to be an idealist in the world with so many realists who refuse to accept that peace is attainable. And I do agree that the biggest problem is that people hold the alleged good guys to similar standards as the bad guys. Our behavior in Iraq and various detainment camps shows the result of holding low standards for the US. Many of the Republicans I know defend it by saying "they behead people." Either way, I'm much less willing to attribute actions to a whole when it is only terrorist groups within the population causing the problem than a country's official military.

On the other hand, someone really needs to tell these people that what goes up must come down. When you shoot bullets indiscriminantly into the air, they will come down at some point and if they hit someone, that person will be hurt or killed.

[BFG]

From the perspective of Europe and the middle-east, all American media is right-wing.

Not quite true... but when u have stations like Fox entertainment news, and CNN etc etc... i expect we get a scewed view of the media over there... im sure there are a lot of extremely well informed, level headed straight talking news programs etc which 51% won't watch

[Abe 2.0]

Yep,
There's always PBS and NPR, but it seems few people actually watche/listen.....a shame because those are some of finest news sources, imo. Almost all of their stuff is online too.

[BFG]

BFG - please name one US news organization which is to the left of ANY major European news organization.

We're more left than European News Networks Network?
American very left Liberal News .org?

Ok so the chances are actually there arn't any... awh well i was being polite

• Associated Press
• Routers
--- or -----
• Channel 4 news
• BBC World Service

[DarK.]

All I have to say is that if one of my friends gets killed by this f'ing "war on terror" there will be hell to pay (reading my furious letters) to all the people I can think to send them.

[*DAMN Bondo]

Sal, Sistani's group is almost undoubtedly going to get over 50% of the seats. Sistani is undoubtedly a popular figure of at least 50% of the populous. Sistani is definitely not an American puppet. I don't see where you are making your conclusions.

We knew going in that there was the threat of violence and that the Sunni turnout would be lower...how would you suggest the election be held so that wasn't the case?

I'd like to know what realistic plan you would have for holding a perfect election in Iraq (hell, the US can't even hold an election that isn't horribly flawed.)

[BFG]

Saddam Hussain was eligible to vote as an Iraqi... Somehow i don't think the Americans let him though

[BTs_Mysterio]

Saddam Hussain was eligible to vote as an Iraqi... Somehow i don't think the Americans let him though

I had the same thought awhile back. Can't American prisoners (even on death row) vote?

[*DAMN Bondo]

I didn't think Iraq had WMD. I do think the election was problematic, but successful. I think the Shi'ites, in the interest of making things work, will invite the Sunnis to participate beyond their elected representation, understanding that they were underrepresented. I think the majority of those elected have no love lost for the Americans and will not tolerate overt political interference in the process of crafting the Constitution, relying instead on non-American UN assistance and will structure their government much more like European countries than the US. In the end, perception is reality and this election will be perceived as turning the tide. Whether or not it was a clean election doesn't matter.

["Sixhits"]

Btw, boom.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-020305iraq_wr,0,3561003.story?coll=la-home-headlines

"Insurgent Attacks Kill 28 in Iraq"

Welcome to the future. It's as bad as the past.

[BFG]

Oh wow. who would have believed it. Throwing a "election" didn't stop the Insurgents or the restisters  from blowing people up and killing innocent civilians. Who would have believed it [/sarasm]

[Croosch]

They will say that the election is just the first step to success... as they said when we first went into Iraq, as they said when "the war was declared over", as they said when we found Suddam... the list goes on.

[BTs_Mysterio]

They make take a step over and to the side seeing as the focus is on Iran lately.

[Abe 2.0]

I find it amazing that so many of the "peaceniks" tend to root for the 'insurgents/rebels/freedom-fighters' who kill and maim countless innocent iraqis, threaten and use violence to disrupt the political process that will lead not only to the US getting out of Iraq, but also to the reconstruction of a country that has suffered imeasurably and whose people have persistenltly been abused for the past 30 years. Do any of you people ever think about the ordinary iraqis, who try to make an ordinary life out of an impossible situation? How about the people who stand up to the thugs and join the police and national guard or simply go to the polling centers to vote, despite the threats from the thugs and terrorists? They deserve a lot more sympathy than the assholes who are "fighting for their freedom and dignity" by blowing up civilians and disrupting the daily lives of people. Yes, iraqis want the americans and their allies out of iraq, but they also want to live ordinary lives and thats why people went out and voted, whether it be 72% as the americans claim or the more realistic number of 55%. By the way, I would be interested in knowing how many americans or western europeans would have voted under similar circumstances in our own countries. I'd say somewhere between 5 and 0 percent. Sal will contunue to argue that the election was pointless for a variety of reasons, but it seems that over half of Iraqis whose future actually depended on the vote seemed to think otherwise. Also, despite all the flaws our self-appointed resident "expert" has brought up, the iraqi elections seem a lot more free and fair than elections in say, syria or saudi arabia. Even if they were flawed, the elections were a lot better than those held under saddam hussein and will have a lot more impact on the lives of the average iraqi. The only person who seems to recognize this on this forum is bondo.
No the terrorism and violence wont stop the day after the elections....nobody ever made such a claim. It will take a while before Iraq can rise up out the collosal shithole it is in and become a normal functioning state. Even the western european news media is waking up to the fact that the people planting bombs and attacking iraqi police and civilians, along with the occasional american are doing a disservice to the country and are refraining from calling them "rebels, insurgents, etc.", opting for the more accurate label of terrorists. I guess the doubters will keep belittleing every bit of progress that is made by posting links to articles about continued violence....people really need to understand that this isnt about the US scoring PR  points, but about a country trying to get back to normal after more than three decades of bullshit.

[Brutha]

Even the western european news media is waking up to the fact that the people planting bombs and attacking iraqi police and civilians, along with the occasional american are doing a disservice to the country and are refraining from calling them "rebels, insurgents, etc.", opting for the more accurate label of terrorists. I guess the doubters will keep belittleing every bit of progress that is made by posting links to articles about continued violence....people really need to understand that this isnt about the US scoring PR  points, but about a country trying to get back to normal after more than three decades of bullshit.

So what you are saying is that western european media, believed the bombers DID Iraq a service? I never noticed that. Is it so far fetched that the Iraqi insurgents are opposing America due to historical evidence? The arabian community might be pissed off because of the way you help Israel in everything. They might be pissed off because of the way you treated Afghanistan when Soviet pulled out. Do you even wonder why they don't trust you? Your president blunders out something about a "crusade against evil" and you don't think the middle eastern countries are going to react negativly? This issue is most likely not only about Iraq, but the way America is doing what they want, not caring about anything but their own ppl. Just because we see things differently, dosn't mean we are pro terrorists. Perhaps your media is making you blind to the truth, ever stopped to think about that?

I noticed once on an American forum a person saying: "These damn Europeans don't know what it means to be an American". Here is a newsflash for ya: "WE DON'T WANT TO!!"