Do you know the truth?

[Aramarth]

I got ahold of this article on the grapevine, and it really lifted my spirits. I'll link at the bottom after I say my piece. Man, classes to get to and I want to add a rant on Stonewall Jackson.. so little time, it will have to wait.

Many of you probably have not heard, but I enlisted in the Marine Corps during winter break from college. The first question most of my friends asked was "why." "Why" I thought? To me, the decision was more a question of "how can I justify not joining." And I really tried. I was shaken when my parents were supportive. I felt like I was dreaming when the recruiter I spoke with broke character- I mean literally lost his business face- and told me that "it was good to hear someone say that. It is exactly what we look for and never find." What did I tell him? I told the Ssgt. that I wanted to serve, that I wanted to do something in life. In other words, I just feel that a 9 to 5 job and the life of a self-gratifying consumer was the most distasteful form of existence I could think of.

The second thing any given person said when I gave them the news was "have fun in Iraq" or something equally cynical. Iraq isn't my worry, but no one understands that. It is probably a combination of not being informed and their natural fears of death. I don't have the latter, and the former is something I have a good record of avoiding.

I could go on with my reasons for signing up for the armed forces during a war, (yknow this wasnt thought odd previous to Vietnam. I recall entire units forming from volunteers in the world wars) but my reasons are not why I decided to brave the fires of the GG. I wanted to share a little something, and see how many of you will admit you've been had, or conversely deny that you are pawns of your favorite media outlet.

Before reading, ask yourself: Is the war in Iraq taking too long?

From the article:

...bothersome are references by "experts" on how "long" this war is taking. I've read that in the world of manufacturing, you can have only two of the following three qualities when developing a product — cheap, fast or good. You can produce something cheap and fast, but it won't be good; good and fast, but it won't be cheap; good and cheap, but it won't be fast. In this case, we want the result to be good and we want it at the lowest cost in human lives. Given this set of conditions, one can expect this war is to take a while...

Hmm.. interesting. Claiming it takes too long seems kind of silly after reading that, doesn't it.

Be sure to read the postscript. It is probably the most telling fact in the whole letter. Seriously, I dare anyone to give me a reason why Iraqi media should be more willing to report progress than allied media.

Article here: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/breaking2453389.0680555557.html
and the pdf on my webspace: http://filebox.vt.edu/users/msuter/public/20050118.pdf

Happy reading
Ara

[BFG]

1. According to George Bush last year as he posed on the american Aircraft carrier the war in Iraq is over.

2. Many people (certainly here) are worried about how the war came about and what is being done, not the length of time of the conflict. What worries people is why the war happened in the first place, the complete lack of understanding of what would happen, and the complete inability to help provide security and stability to the people of Iraq. Not to mention the shocking killing of unknown thousands of  civilians.

So after reading it... No because bush said the war was over, because there is no 'set length' ... and Yes because any length of time was to long and the complete ineptness of the invasion and the actions since have only made matters far worse.

The elections will not be 'free' the idea that its a free democratic vote is absurd while militia and insurgents murder workers and intimidate anyone who plans on voting. The system is flawed, there is no security, there is no basis for elections to be able to be held. Its a complete farce. The country is totally de-stabalised, the invasion opened the doors to the insurgent, opening the door for these people to cause chaos. as GS said you reap what you sow.

"how can I justify not joining."

Everything, for instance the fact you do not want to kill fellow humans ... or that you do not agree with carrying out the dirty work off the bush administration and co.

Enough said i think

[BFG]

or not quite...

As a recent example, the operation in Fallujah delivered an absolutely devastating blow to the insurgency. Though much smaller in scope, clearing Fallujah of insurgents arguably could equate to the Allies' breakout from the hedgerows in France during World War II. In both cases, our troops overcame a well-prepared and solidly entrenched enemy and began what could be the latter's last stand. In Fallujah, the enemy death toll has exceeded 1,500 and still is climbing. Put one in the win column for the good guys, right? Wrong. As soon as there was nothing negative to report about Fallujah, the media shifted its focus to other parts of the country.

Actually US commanders admitted that the chances are that most of the insurgents and leaders all escaped from Fallujah. Enemy being people who weren't US soldiers? men with guns trying to protect their families? or just any bodies that might have been found. There is lots of negative stuff to report about Fallujah - hell i don't know about the US media but we sure as hell covered the blood bath, the civilians caught up in the conflict, the homes and lives of people that were totally obliterated. GJ there really.

[Supernatural Pie]

SNiPE's Iraq War Checklist:


* = Yes
X = No

Cheap? X

Fast? X

Good? * or X (Debatable)

Seems to me that at most, we only have 1 out of the 3, and many believe we have 0 out of 3. According to your theory, shouldn't we at least have 2? What went wrong?

[SanitarySal]

I just want to say I totally agree with you about the 9-5 thing.  Fuck that, its never been for me and your idea on sickening self-serving consumerism is right on.

However, if you want to know what happens to American Marines who serve their country without question, with complete loyalty and limitless patriotism, look into the service of Marine Corps (Field Intelligence) veteran from the Gulf War Scott Ritter.

He is a Marine who beleived in his country, served it flawlessly,  made huge sacarfices for you and me on and off the battlefield.   Our polticians in washington, have tried everything they could do to discredit him and he has bravely stood up in the Gulf war and then through his years of service as the chief weapons inspector Iraq. Now americans have abandoned their own US Marine Veteran.

He wrote book, which I read in 1999 called "End Game"   I highly recommend you read it before leaving.

If you want to serve your country, I suggest you talk to a Marine who has been there and done that!   I would point you to my GrandFather, but he has passed.   I am in touch Scott Ritter, if you wish to speak with him let me know.

From my own experience in Iraq, I highly recommend you reconsider.  Your chances of coming back with a serious injury or worse are very high.  If you wish to hear about the Us military deaths or serious injuries which I witnessed with my own eyes, I will be happy to recount them for you and provide with some photos I took.

For your own interest, and in the interest of family and in the interest of best serving your country I hope you will do what I suggested before leaving.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

BFG, if you have a problem with the way things are, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.  Be the change that you desire.  Don't just sit back and do nothing and then complain about it.  If you are so anti-Bush, then take up arms with our enemies and fight the bloody Americans.  If you are so anti-Israel, then go join the military of some Arab country so that someday you might get to slaughter you some Jews.  If you can't stand the thought of killing another person, then go join some International Peace organization like Amnesty International and put your life to work for something.

All I'm saying is, don't sit back and complain..."You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

Mohandas Karamachand Gandhi said that.

[Toxic::Joka]

I told the Ssgt. that I wanted to serve, that I wanted to do something in life. In other words, I just feel that a 9 to 5 job and the life of a self-gratifying consumer was the most distasteful form of existence I could think of.

Guess you'll get to test how real cc2 is

I was thinking of joining the Finnish rapid deployment unit AKA. peacekeepers. See the world, get some perspective on life, return filthy rich.. . Maybe I'll see you out there somewhere someday, although I doubt american marines do peacekeeping stuff 

Stay safe buddy.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

Very righteous decision, I bid you Godspeed on your journey of destruction.

However, I agree with Thomas Jefferson on the basis that a democracy must be an organic creation, not something that is imposed upon people by foreign powers. The world doesn't want our brand of democracy forced upon them.

Here are some other opinions of troops that served in Iraq http://www.optruth.org/main.cfm?actionId=globalShowStaticContent&screenKey=hearHome&lnav=1

[BFG]

Ara we've never met, we never will and we know very little about you - but from the times we've spent chatting etc and playing games together i grew to like you as did the other mod boys. I don't want to not give you the encouragement to do what you want to do, but i just find it difficult to comprehend the logic behind this, and because i and others are not overly happy to see someone we know and care about go off to join the military.


and Ghostsniper

I do have and will continue to do so. But i do not belive picking up a gun is going to solve the problem - hell one of the biggest problems is so many idiots do believe that picking up a gun will solve the problems (not referring to u amaranth)

And don't be so f*cking simplistic sorry this is pathetic though and just stupid. 1. I do not want to slaughter jews any more than i want to slaughter anyone. I just do not believe that breaking UN resolutions, and the continued oppression and murder of palestinian civilians is the answer to stopping terrorist attacks on israel.
I give some of what little money i have towards Amnesty international and a group that helps victims of torture. i have very little money but what i can spare i do so willingly. I have also and will continue to write to my MP's and participate in protests when ever i can at my countries blind following of the actions of the US and the actions it carries out in my name.

And i do what i can to help protect the environment, walking and using public transport, keeping my carbon footprint down and recycling what i can. We use a highly economic car when we do travel by car and we buy our electric from companies investing in Renewable energy. So don't try telling me to get off my ass while you drive around in your SUV's polluting the world. You might be to small minded to want to believe it is happening but i sure as hell don't appreciate peoples stupidity and selfishness.

As for actions? well here is one. I don't believe with what is being said so i post, i discuss and i debate peoples ideas, to both try and understand how they came to conclusions but also in the very vain hope that somehow in whatever tiny manner, i can possibly in some way change the way people think about these issues. I just don't believe i need to Join the Army to make those changes.

[Aramarth]

To BFG's first pair of posts:

the complete ineptness of the invasion and the actions since

Did you read the article? "The actions since" eh? You have got to be kidding. No, I am not here to defend the reasons for going in the first place. I did say that in my original post. But the fact is, if you read what the Lieutenant Colonel wrote, that we are doing good now that we are there.

The enemy in Fallujah, if you could read, was entrenched. Not only this article, but a piece I read in TIME magazine illustrates this. I will not enter the details, because you will look them up yourself if you have a conscience to back up your statements, but guess what? People do not fortify buildings and rig others with explosives if they are just guarding their homes. That is an activity performed by militants.

Again, I have to question if you read. Sure, people are dying, and on both sides. That is all the media covers, and they don't leave their hotels to do so. They get tips from insurgents.

The postscript, which I asked you to read in particular:

I have had my staff aggressively pursue media coverage for all sorts of events that tell the other side of the story only to have them turned down or ignored by the press in Baghdad. Strangely, I found it much easier to lure the Arab media to a "non-lethal" event than the western outlets. Open a renovated school or a youth center and I could always count on Al-Iraqia or even Al-Jazeera to show up, but no western media ever showed up – ever. Now I did have a pretty dangerous sector, the Abu Ghuraib district that extends from western Baghdad to the outskirts of Fallujah (not including the prison), but it certainly wasn't as bad as Fallujah in November and there were reporters in there.

This paragraph can't even be introduced, it is that good:

Much of the problem is about perspective, putting things in scale and balance. What if domestic news outlets continually fed American readers headlines like: "Bloody Week on U.S. Highways: Some 700 Killed," or "More Than 900 Americans Die Weekly from Obesity-Related Diseases"? Both of these headlines might be true statistically, but do they really represent accurate pictures of the situations? What if you combined all of the negatives to be found in the state of Texas and used them as an indicator of the quality of life for all Texans? Imagine the headlines: "Anti-law Enforcement Elements Spread Robbery, Rape and Murder through Texas Cities." For all intents and purposes, this statement is true for any day of any year in any state. True — yes, accurate — yes, but in context with the greater good taking place — no! After a year or two of headlines like these, more than a few folks back in Texas and the rest of the U.S. probably would be ready to jump off of a building and end it all. So, imagine being an American in Iraq right now.

Try that on for size BFG. Look up some statistics about your country and see if you can make a headline that stands your hair on end. Fact is, good news doesn't make the reports. "American troops hit civilians" does make the cut for a half hour evening slot. How about the thousands of militants we are defeating, or the fact that insurgents are becoming more desperate. Yes, desperation, or did you not read my article?

Given all of this, why don't the papers lead with "Coalition Crushes Remaining Pockets of Insurgents" or "Enemy Forces Resort to Suicide Bombings of Civilians"? This would paint a far more accurate picture of the enemy's predicament over here. Instead, headlines focus almost exclusively on our hardships.

You painted a far better picture of the mis-reporting than this article or I ever could BFG. You know a mere fraction of what is going on in Iraq and only the parts that go wrong. Reread this article. Please. Take down your media-fed walls of anger for a moment. You do know that news organizations report only the best headlines, right?

Suppose they report 5% of all happenings in the county. You watch the news. You now know the absolute worst and bloodiest events, but 95% is never heard. For you, violence is now all that is happening (100%), while for an Iraqi, they heard about a car bomb maybe a week ago, but it was three towns over (5%).

Answer me yes or no, do you see the difference?


To Snipe:

Seems to me that at most, we only have 1 out of the 3, and many believe we have 0 out of 3. According to your theory, shouldn't we at least have 2? What went wrong?

I must question your reading skills as well Snipe. If you were educated in counterinsurgency, you would know that casualties are extremely low. Also, if you read the article, you would know that you've only heard the bad reported. Good stuff doesn't make a sellable headline. But as this army LTCOL writes, it is there, and there's a lot of it. Two out of three.


Sal, thanks for the words. My father was a Marine LTCOL, and the two or three generations before that were career military as well. I hold no delusions about what service means. Speaking to Ritter would be valuable. Still, one fact remains. Regardless of policy, regardless of outcome, regardless of reward, I will have served. The average joe can't touch that. Heaven knows BFG is a great guy, but even in the delayed entry program, I've got the right to ask him and others "what have you done?" What have you sacrificed, what have you suffered, what have you done for other men whom you haven't met without reserving anything for yourself? Ok, you bought a house, a car, married a sweet pretty girl, got a promotion. Pat yourself on the back. Now, what have you done?

This said, I had a session timeout and some more posts while I was typing (and fielding a phone call). All I can do in this space is give y'all a nod that your most recent posts were read, and most were appreciated.

[Supernatural Pie]

To Snipe:

Seems to me that at most, we only have 1 out of the 3, and many believe we have 0 out of 3. According to your theory, shouldn't we at least have 2? What went wrong?

I must question your reading skills as well Snipe. If you were educated in counterinsurgency, you would know that casualties are extremely low. Also, if you read the article, you would know that you've only heard the bad reported. Good stuff doesn't make a sellable headline. But as this army LTCOL writes, it is there, and there's a lot of it. Two out of three.

Um, sorry. I think it's you that missed something in what I wrote.

The quote mentioned that you should have two out the following three: Cheap, Fast, Good

I said that this war is certainly not cheap, and it's definitely going to take a while. I then said that it will be argued by conflicting sides as to whether or not this war is good or bad. I never said that I personally believe that no good is happening. I'm sure that there are good things happening.

However, this war is by no means cheap, and it is by no means fast.

So, "Good" is #1 for you. What's #2?

[SanitarySal]

Aramath a  few things come to mind from your posts:

1 - Your source of information is based on an American,  Lt Col in the Marines (An officer), currently serving in a a war zone.    Do you truly feel he is being or even can be objective?  Ask yourself, is he in the position to be critical of the military or operations he has seen, and if he was critical of the operations, would he have much of a future in the Marines?

2 - Do you know much about this publication  "World Tribune" If you want to get an objective perspective, this is not one of them, nor will you find it on TV or in Time Magazine.   Despite what you think, Time is not that quality of a publication and actually there are very few quality publications in America.   You might try Seymour Herch of the New Yorker, he broke Abu Graib.   But even better, why go with American media, try an outside source, not the BBC, try a  non allied source.   Try China News, or Some other European Country, or if you just dont feel you can trust Europe for some reason, Canadian news, they are our neighbor after all.  If you only speak one language your access is limited, but you could look for some translations.  Most importantly realize your source.  ALL american media has a hidden agenda.   The problem is most American readers are not qualified to see it, or  to pull the truth from between the lines of American Publications.   

This Lt Colonel is not being completely honest, he is boosting his own service record partially for his own gain.   I want to give you an example of how officers lie.

I was in Tikrit in a forward operating base of the 3rd brigade 4th Infantry Division of the Army.    I went out on night patrol with a recon team.   Basically we rolled, lights off, in unarmored humvees (these things didnt even have doors).   We packed sandbags into the floor boards to protect from mines, but they would have ineffective to an IED.  We pulled into a dusty soccer field, using night vision to inspect the surrounding area, drank bottle water and smoked cigarettes being careful to cover the cherry.   3 of the solders in the humvee told me about a well coordinated ambush that happened two weeks prior.  Basically from out of the bushes an Iraqi resistor hit their humvee with an RPG, in the front passenger quarterpanel.  This seriously fucked up the Sgt riding shotgun.   All the others were fucked up too.   This guy named Laboff (sp) returned fire with the mounted Auto grenade launcher, firing up some innocent iraqis home, but missing the attacker.   The humvee fled to safety about a mile and half up the street where another group of resistors were waiting and hit them with small arms fire.   They tore out of there and ran to get reinforcements.  Laboof was the guy  i was talking too.   He was uptop when the humvee got hit.   He had hearing damage and was bleeding from the ears.  Imagine an RPG detonating within 10 feet from your face.   When he was telling me this he said he still had migrane headaches and ear pain.  The Colonel gave him 5 days off then brought him back to duty.   This man, laboff, the only one who returned fire, should have been sent home, and should get a purple heart, but the colonel didnt want to acknowledge this as an injury.

A few days later I was speaking with the Colonel.   he had no idea I knew or talked to Laboff.   He began telling me of the low level of resistance, and how they have pacified Tikrit.   Well already he seemed to be challenging reason.  But then he went into specifics about this attack and told me that the RPG didnt even hit the humvee, and that they only had one minor injury and all soldiers had been returned to duty.  He was outright lying to me, because as I had said I had talked to three of the enlisted soldiers who were there when it happened.

I tell you that for two reasons.  You can not believe the reports from the Officers in the field.   They have professional ambition that is not furthered by critical inquiry of their operations or that of the military.  I also tell you that to give you an idea of what the military considers to be an injury.   Concussion, blown hearing, and bleeding from the ears and superficial wounds are not an injury by the militaries definition despite the fact that Laboff will be affected for the rest of his life.   Getting your legs blown off is what the Army defines as an injury.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

Let me get this straight, you think the America media is biased in its war coverage? From what I understand, the U.S. journalists are imbedded with the U.S. military. Most stories are looked over by the DoD prior to being released to confirm statistics and make sure no "sensitive" information is disclosed.

In my opinion the U.S. media was complicit in the selling of this illegal and immoral war, which is why half the population of the United States believes it was the "right" thing to do, and why they think Saddam and Osama were one in the same. The policy making elites are very aware of the malleability of public opinion.

Also, the editor of World Tribune.com, Robert Morton, is the editor of The Washington Post, which is a known conservative leaning publication, so it doesn't shock me that he's peddling a point of view that blames the media and lets the real criminals off the hook. http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/rmorton.html

Imagine an Arab Army invading America trying to sell us their ideology. Even though I abhor violence, I would kill as many of those mother fuckers as possible, by any means necessary, even if that meant fortifying buildings, rigging them with explosives and cutting off the heads of non believers.

And those thousands of militants we are defeating or more properly murdering, are children, the majority of which are 15-18 years old. For each "militant" we "defeat", expect his family to further the resistance 10 fold. It's a never ending cycle of death and destruction, which cannot be remedied by force.
As far as casualties go, this war is proportionally on par with Vietnam, when force size is taken into account. This doesn't factor in the 100,000 or so civilian deaths (which got very little media coverage, although it's a nice and bloody statistic). http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596

"What have I done?" If you think being indoctrinated into the military by the government entitles you to a feeling of grandiosity, perhaps you should rethink your motives. Picking up a gun and shooting another person without question of authority is the definition of insanity. When I die or kill, it sure as shit aint gunna be for those thieves in Washington, DC, or for some ambiguous ideal like freedom.

You're more likely to "do" something meaningful, by picking up a pen than by picking up a gun.

[BFG]

These days when i look to the news i either look to the BBC world Serice (very different from what we get in the UK)  but more often to what we call the channel 4 news. I have yet to find anything that matches up to it. for news coverage AP or Routers are the other key networks

ps. Sal that was a very interesting read

pps. thank-you Spetz im very glad you understood my post and so i post here, write letters shout and complain, rather than join the British Army. And yes as far as im aware almost all media coming from the "embedded" reporters is being "vetted" by the Military - and they love embedded reporters because its how they can control the media.

Not so keen to look after the other press... don't think they like the unvetted picture of Iraq

[Mr.Mellow]

Imagine an Arab Army invading America trying to sell us their ideology. Even though I abhor violence, I would kill as many of those mother fuckers as possible, by any means necessary, even if that meant fortifying buildings, rigging them with explosives and cutting off the heads of non believers.

And those thousands of militants we are defeating or more properly murdering, are children, the majority of which are 15-18 years old. For each "militant" we "defeat", expect his family to further the resistance 10 fold. It's a never ending cycle of death and destruction, which cannot be remedied by force.

Smartest thing I've read all day. Nice post, Spets. People don't understand that the Iraqis have been told for years that the Americans are the enemy. Most didn't care that Saddam was a tyrant. I doubt few, if any, had ever visited a "civilized" country, so how were they do know that it was wrong? It was how they'd always lived, and they'd never known anything else. Let's say you're forced to eat cabbage every day for your life since you were born. Nothing but cabbage. Cabbage is all you know, and there are other vegetables out there, but you've never tried them or even seen them before. Why would you want something that, as far as you know, doesn't even exist? You wouldn't, because you've never even come across it. Also, people fear change. But anyways, I had a really hard time trying to come up with an example, and that was a shitty one at that, but I think most people understand what I was getting at.

[Aramarth]

Lt Col in the Marines (An officer)

Do you know much about this publication  "World Tribune"

I want to give you an example of how officers lie.

The guy I am quoting is army. My father is the Marine, and an officer (coincidentally the same rank O-5). Very different, though I doubt you know the difference firsthand. I assume the world tribune is publishing the officer's letter as it received it, but I suppose I could be wrong if they outright change text they receive. Your experience is pretty brutal and inexcusable, and there isn't really anything I can say except that not all officers are going to lie, and I'd expect better from Marines.

So, "Good" is #1 for you. What's #2?

Again, I am sure you aren't reading. Epidemic I'm afraid. Number two is cheap. As the article I linked says, we in this case are speaking not monetarily, but cheap in lives lost. To repeat, our losses over there are less than they should be for this kind of mission.

Let me get this straight, you think the America media is biased in its war coverage? From what I understand, the U.S. journalists are imbedded with the U.S. military.

Imagine an Arab Army invading America trying to sell us their ideology.

You're more likely to "do" something meaningful, by picking up a pen than by picking up a gun.

First section.. The embedded journalists, if you had read the article, do not leave their hotels to go get stories. They also respond only to requests for coverage on bad news, while even Al-Jazeera covers good news at the request of this army ltcol.
Second, we don't have a habit of killing our own citizens for political disagreement. Iraq did. It was clear to most that the only way to affect political change was to help the people get out from under saddam. The US needed the French fleet too, if you recall the revolution over here.
Third.. I do pick up a pen. However, knowing that no one in the history of the internet really listens to anyone else, my pen is put to use with people I can meet. I can't believe that BFG seriously just called this an act of service. And if you think that I signed up to shoot people, you're wrong on another count. I didn't sign for the benefit of a politician, or for the people of Iraq. The sacrifice I make is to have everything taken from me, and then be rebuilt as a person. Thats boot camp in the Marines.
The sacrifice I make is to stand up and say I will go, if for no other reason so others like you don't have to. Enjoy that thought, while I crawl under wire in the mud this summer, you get to sit on your ass and not go. While I get torn down every way imaginable, physically and mentally, you get to play at shooting with your little RvS game. Guess what? Someone has to go. Whether it is Iraq, or Afghanistan, or the Balkans (yes we are still there) somebody has to go, so that you can sit on your ass, drinking beer. For this reason, as the one standing up to give up everything I have, I ask, what have you done?

Congrats, to Spetsnaz. He is the first moron I have ever seen claiming that military service is not a sacrifice greater than others. Does anyone else want to add their name to that list? Spetz, would you tell a veteran of the korean war that he can't say to you, what have you done? What do you think is enough service to mean something? Would you go die even for someone you don't agree with? I am going so you don't have to, even in spite of your lack of appreciation, you ignorant asswipe. What have you done?

For mellow and spetz.. Did you just call cutting off heads the smartest thing you've heard all day? He just accused ME of being too eager to kill. Nuff said.
Again, I see a pattern in your posts. You forget that the people in the Middle East have killed each other for centuries. Before, during, and after we leave, it will be the same. The only reason you hear about beheadings now is that we have troops there, which strangely enough allows media to get there in some capacity, instead of what Saddam chose to let them see. Look across the street at the Israel and Palestine conflicts. They kill each other too. It hasn't anything to do with the US being there or not, our belief system or theirs. They are taught to kill anyone who disagrees with them regardless, and that includes themselves some of the time.
There is a reason that the Old Testament tells stories of the armies being ordered to kill everything they see. Believe in that God or not, the Bible is historically accurate. It is their culture in that area, something we just don't have an equivalent of in the west.
Mellow, you act as if we are forcing them to give up their belief system. We aren't. As far as voting, they had that under Saddam, it just didn't mean a damn. Oooh no, big bad America is protecting people who count votes? More than we get in our own states some would say.

[Mr.Mellow]

For mellow and spetz.. Did you just call cutting off heads the smartest thing you've heard all day? He just accused ME of being too eager to kill. Nuff said.
Again, I see a pattern in your posts. You forget that the people in the Middle East have killed each other for centuries. Before, during, and after we leave, it will be the same. The only reason you hear about beheadings now is that we have troops there, which strangely enough allows media to get there in some capacity, instead of what Saddam chose to let them see. Look across the street at the Israel and Palestine conflicts. They kill each other too. It hasn't anything to do with the US being there or not, our belief system or theirs. They are taught to kill anyone who disagrees with them regardless, and that includes themselves some of the time.
There is a reason that the Old Testament tells stories of the armies being ordered to kill everything they see. Believe in that God or not, the Bible is historically accurate. It is their culture in that area, something we just don't have an equivalent of in the west.
Mellow, you act as if we are forcing them to give up their belief system. We aren't. As far as voting, they had that under Saddam, it just didn't mean a damn. Oooh no, big bad America is protecting people who count votes? More than we get in our own states some would say.

Apparently, you're so used to being on the defensive that you take everything I say as a personal attack on you and America.
First, I was not saying that "Cutting off people's heads is the smartest thing I've heard all day." I was merely commenting on Spetsnaz's ability to see why the insurgents are fighting the allied troops in Iraq.
Second, the middle eastern culture is not some barbaric, let's-kill-everybody-and-then-rape-their-babies-too kind of thing. Many middle eastern cultures were, for quite some time, some of the most advanced and civilized civilizations in the world. Also, despite what you seem to have been told from a book written almost 2,000 years ago that's been mistranslated and warped by greedy rulers for centuries, slaughtering the innocent is NOT something unique to the Middle East. Read up on any country's history and you'll find that out.
Thirdly, I made no comment about forcing beliefs on the Iraqi people. I just made references as to why the Iraqi insurgents were resisting their new democratic government, and made examples using metaphors of cabbages representing Saddam Hussein's regime, and other vegetables representing the United States and it's allies in Iraq.
Fourthy, if we can't protect the voting system in our own country, as you just stated, what makes you think that Iraq will be any better?

[[:] Narauko]

I know your history and known u as long as many of my social friends i see daily, you will be missed.

If its your dream then follow it, I live by that rule and should have supported an obvious decision. You know my argument for not.

Since you posted i thought i'd take a chance to make a formal goodbye and c u soon. You hook me up with free flights? Maybe a gun?

Just remember where you came from...1iNe< Say hi to hath if u see him.

Narauko.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

Ara, didn't mean to make you mad bro, but in my universe of insanity, there's more to the human condition than any flag, medal, ribbon or government can assign to it. I respect you for your patriotic feelings and wish you all the best.

Peace.

[Aramarth]

Mellow, we return to one another the favor of misreading. Sucks for both of us. I am not naive, I never said that the Middle East is the only culture that has ever embraced butchery. They have, I believe, done it for a bit longer than anyone else. By the way, I am a history major.

I am a bit defensive. I would submit, however, that that is the fault of the environment. Would you like to know why? President Bush makes our nation look foolish. He is a nightmare. My sister and I stayed up all night in 2000, hoping that this Texan who couldn't form a sentence wouldn't be elected.
That said, even my sister the hippie admits that she was glad there was a conservative was in office on 9/11. A democrat simply wouldn't have been given the time that Bush had before retaliation in some form. The government in this state is a mixed blessing.
On the other side of the coin, the democrats are making a lot of their problems worse. If they want to win elections again, they need to avoid the topic of homosexuality. I doubt that any will be elected to the executive without a stern position of immovability. The democrats have been handed a lot of unfairness, in that any given topic that counters the norm is theirs. This means, since most everyone hates change, that the dems will always have a handicap. I won't even touch the finance aspect.

Why did I bother to write this? I felt that I was being labeled a conservative. America deserves some blame, nay, a good deal. I'd like Bush to own up to that before he leaves, so the nation can move on. We do need to keep moving, even in the face of this Iraqi crap. The nature of stopping terrorists means an offensive strategy. In truth, the reason I don't agree with anyone here about more than one given point is that I am truly a moderate. I wouldn't have thought so, but my polysci course first semester taught me how to find out (the prof in there was green party ). A whole lot of people claim to be moderates, but few actually fit the bill.

Nara, if I meet hathcock he will outrank me. Thats a bit of a switch.

Cool spetz. Your text was misinterpreted, and I appreciate it. Freaking forums just don't communicate tone properly.