Season X: RvS SuperFinals - Number of participants?

[*DAMN Mauti]

The Raven Shield SuperFinals will be hold on 9th and 10th april 2005.

More info about the SuperFinal setup can be found in the *DBL rules.

About the number of clans that qualify for the RvS SuperFinals? For Ghost Recon we have 8 clans, but the RvS ladder had much less active clans(11 in season IX) so 8 may is a bit high!? So would you like to see 4 clans in the finals, 8 or, shall we decide after the first 6 days of registration how many clans signed up for the ladder?

Bye,

Mauti

[BTs_Mysterio]

How about NO superfinals?

[Typhy]

I'm a bit puzzled here. BFG, myself and KOP have all spoken out against the super finals system. That makes up the clan leaders of the top 3 RvS clans.

The super finals is a great idea in the same way that communism is a great idea. It doesn't work.

I have two major concerns with the super finals system.

1.) Background: Very few people here were around before the Finals System was introduced. Before the finals system, the last day of the season was nuts. You would often have anywhere from 2-5 clans within striking distance of first place. It'd be an absolutely insane day of CBs, and would usually end in a CB between the #1 and #2 clans to determine the winner of the season.

We saw some of this same stuff in season 7. On the final day, there were 6 clans competing for 4 finals slots. Everything was close enough that every clan was forced to CB to stay in the top 4. I know that here in MP5, we did 5 CBs that day, including the CBs that brought BoC and BTs back into the running. BTs did at least 3, including a long, 3-2 victory over MP as the season ended with an entire room full of people getting updates from a BTs player about the CB. That was exciting. That was a damn good day of CBing. That's what the BL wants. Then of course, we all know what happened in the finals.

I will use the season 9 ladder as my example. MP5: 226 Sheep, c|: 185 sheep, zt: 154 sheep, MOD 110 sheep.

There's your top 4.

I would ACCEPT zt being in with 154 sheep, though I don't really feel that they would deserve it with 57% winning and only 154 sheep. MOD has +10. Ten sheep above their starting point of 100. Here in MP5, an average CB for us gained 11 sheep ( rounded from 11.45 ). Thus, assuming that MODs CBs were worth about the same as ours, they would have 'earned' their finals spot with a single win. Suddenly, MOD with their 1 win ( MOD was 4-3, I'm using this as an example ) is in the EXACT same situation as MP5 with their 11 wins and 226 sheep.

Is that right? Do we want the regular season to be so meaningless as to allow a 4th place clan with 1 win to be in the EXACT same situation as a 1st placed clan with 11 wins?

Let's look at the ladder, hypothetically. Totally an example:

There are no finals, 1st place at the end of the season is the winner. c| is easily within striking distance of MP5. c| offers MOD a chance to get themselves back into the running for the top spot, and does a 30 sheep CB. c| wins, suddenly, c| has 215 sheep, and MP5 is only 11 sheep ahead. Suddenly, we in MP5 have to protect ourselves, we're then forced to go out and CB.

In the meantime, zt gives Core the same offer as c| gave MOD: A chance to get into the running. zt wins 50 sheep off Core. Suddenly, zt is at 204 sheep, also within striking distance of MP5 and c|.

Now, from the stand point of a clan leader, at this point I would challenge zt to a CB and attempt to knock them out. Say 30 sheep. MP5 beats zt, zt is back down to 174 sheep, MP5 is up to 256. c| and zt would see that their best chance to catch up is to CB one another. c| beats zt for 30 sheep. Suddenly, c| is at 245, again within striking distance of MP5. Now the day is getting late. I can see that c| is gearing up for a 15 sheep CB against DAF that would put them in first place. Seeing this, and realizing that our only hope to hold onto first place is a CB against c|, I challenge c| to a 50 sheep CB, basically to determine the winner of the season. One of us wins.

Now, that may look like just a bunch of ramblings to some people. However, that's a very reasonable scenario that could've happened, and something quite like it undoubtably would happen.

However, with the finals, why should any of us CB? We're already in the finals, CBing doesn't do us any good. No excitement.

That's my problem with the finals system all together. *DAMN is looking for an exciting day of CBing, that's what the Super Finals system is all about. You want an exciting day of CBing, get rid of the finals! The last day is incredible!

Now, onto my problem with the super finals, rather than the finals in general:

I can't make it there for an entire day of CBing, nor would I want to even if I could. That eliminates my clan, one of the top 3 RvS clans. Many other people have this same problem. If a player fights for their clan all season long, we MUST have a finals system that allows them to help determine wether their clan wins the season or not. We must have a flexable system that allows everyone an oppertunity to play.

These suggestions are for the RvS ladder. You GHR players seem to do fine with the finals. That's great, great for you. This is for the RVS ladder.

I would invite anyone who supports the finals system to come discuss it with me on GR, I would love to hear your side of things in an open discussion on GR.

I look forward to hearing from anyone who posts supporting the finals.

Have a nice day,

Typhy

[BTs_Mysterio]

THe last week of ladders was always best when there was no finals. I remember each night of season endings. There were like 20 CBs reported everyone was going at the list with a calculator counting down to Mauti's posting of the winners at the stroke of midnight. That was always the best part of the season.

[BFG]

Something that was pointed out to me last night Typh, and I'm not sure what your opinion on this is that where you refer to the problem with the finals happening on a day or so, your saying the advantage of not having the finals is that it all happens on the last day or so. - so the only difference is having that day set and moderated by Admins etc. ?

One issue that the general season period becomes void if you know your in the finals is one which we discussed last night - and depends greatly on the number of clans placed in the finals in comarison with the number of participating clans.

I understand both you and a few other individuals do not like the current finals system but it seems that the great majority of the community does in-fact like the system - with RvS players in particular im not sure quite what the opinion is as there has been only feedback from yourself and a few other individuals.

[Typhy]

  so the only difference is having that day set and moderated by Admins etc. ?

1.) Scheduled CBs.

2.) Set times.

3.) If you know you can't be there, then you may want to make sure you're way, way, way ahead going into the last day.

There's a big difference between having to wake up at 9:00 AM, miss work ( and the money associated with it ), have scheduled ( set ) oponents, and have our regular season rank mean nothing vs coming home from work at 4:30 PM and starting my CBs, not having scheduled CBs and have my regular season rank dictate how tough the clans I have to play are, and how many CBs I need to do.

im not sure quite what the opinion is as there has been only feedback from yourself and a few other individuals.

A few other individuals, such as yourself and KOP. That makes up the clan leaders of 3 clans who were responsible for 29 out of the 35 CBs in the regular season. That's 83% of the CBs this season on the RvS ladder. I really don't care what a bunch of people say who A.) Don't CB, and B.) Wouldn't be involved in the proposed finals system. 3 of the 4 clans who would be involved have spoken out against it. Those 3 clans also make up 83% of the CBs from Season 9.

One issue that the general season period becomes void if you know your in the finals is one which we discussed last night - and depends greatly on the number of clans placed in the finals in comarison with the number of participating clans.

Well, :rolls eyes:, no shit. If there were 200 clans CBing and only 2 made it into the finals, things might be ok. But that's not how it works. I have the season 9 ladder sitting right here infront of me. The least clans anyone has proposed putting in the finals is 4. 4 clans in the finals would put a clan with the equilivant of 1 win ( +10 sheep ) in the EXACT same situation as a clan with 11 wins ( 226 sheep ). Can you seriously sit there and tell me that the regular season is meaningful when the 1st placed clan and the 4th placed clan are in the EXACT same situation when the 4th placed clan has +10 and the 1st placed clan has +126? Sorry, but having over 12 times as many points should be worth something. [/color]

[Typhy]

:Gives Flies a disgustingly nasty look:, so this is how we're playing, eh?

In the recent Tournament we noticed that 8 clans worked fine

The recent tournament had no relationship to a BL season. 8 clans is a fine amount for a straight tournament. The season ending tournament is more of a "playoff' than a tournament, because it's SUPPOSED to have some relation to the rankings from the season.

It is something the most of community have asked for years

Interesting, then, that the finals were introduced before most of this community was even around, don't you think?

A little feed-back from one of the most lousy and low-placed clans in the RvS-ladder:

This is the most accurate part of your post. You were 0-1 last season. Is it any surprise that a member of an 0-1 clan would support a system that would put them in the same situation as a 11-0 clan?

I'm sure you made this post just to spite me, which I can respect because I quite possibly would've done the same thing to you given the option. Your post falls more under "propaganda" than "constructive", though.

You and I agree on one point: The idea of a single weekend tournament could be fun. I say could be simply because I haven't played in one.

I've said it many times before, I would support tournaments, but as seperate events from the BL seasons. One look at the RvS ladder should tell you that having any final with more than 2 clans in it takes away any value from the regular season.

Bend to your logic, not your ego. Oh, and have a nice night.

[Brutha]

Well, :MoD: will be there. I hope MP5 shows up, but we will play without them if they don't.

[Brutha]

Hehe, of course we can CB..how many sheep we are willing to wager, is another matter. We can discuss that when we meet up. Let the games begin!!!

(Lets do one the Capture the enemy ladder too )

[Brutha]

After this post it can go back on topic. Flies, your ppl are going to stay sober that night I see

[.vooDoo.]

Shall we open the dance with a first cb of 20 sheeps ?

Flies, u startin to grow some nuts, good to see that  . It almost makes me want to come out of retirement.....almost.

[BFG]

Bring it back on topic please guys there is still inportant discussion etc regarding this topic.

[BTs_Mysterio]

I was glad to hear the quick response by mauti in the other thread, but any chance of updates with this topic as it is just as important in the long run?

[c| Spetsnaz.]

Waiting to see how many clans sign up would probably make the most sense. For the record the co||ective has no qualms with the superfinals system.

[*DAMN Mauti]

Well, since the majority likes Finals, we will have Superfinals with 4 clans for the Raven Shield team ladder.

Bye,

Mauti