It Did Not Happen Overnight...

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Everybody lies.  Even those "little white lies" that you don't count is still lying.  If you tell me you don't lie, well, I don't believe you. 

 Cheating...sure, not everyone cheats, but I would venture to say that a good percentage of the population does.  If nobody cheated, then why would we need a rule book so big filled with things about cheating? 

so even I am guilty of it.  Pre-marital sex. 

  And now we get to adultery.  I included this one because I just this morning read an article about how one-third of all men, and one-fourth of all women have admitted to having extra-marital intercourse during their marriage.  And the article went on to say that the numbers are probably much much higher because most people are unwilling to talk about it.
[/size]

So everybody lies, including yourself.

It sounds a lot like you have at least once, in some way, cheated, i mean sure, everybody has at least once, right?

And you freely admit you have had pre-marital sex.

So that puts you 3 for 5 of the things you listed that 'many' of us dont have a problem doing, because we're morally debased slobs of a lost generation, because the bible isnt in schools anymore.

Well, consider this.  Adultery happened, and is frequently, historically, documented in many instances, centuries before our nation came into being.  And tell me this, what were the ages of those people that have admitted to having extra-marital affairs, in the article you mentioned?  Were they in your generation, or ours?

Stealing? Come on, dont tell me stealing is anything new to the scene of human nature.  Theft was common place, again, for centuries upon centuries all across the globe long before the U.S. came to exist.  So saying that stealing is bad, true.  Saying that stealing is something that is caused by the removal of the bible from public schools, uh, not so much.

Keep in mind, in both my points about people commiting adultery and theft in previous centuries, this people were frequently religious, and religiously schooled, knew the bible well, and it was a very big part of their life, and it was taught, preached, in schools, and yet these things still happened.

What im getting is that the first three of the things you listed, lying, cheating, and stealing, you base your assumption that 'many' of us have done this, off of your own life experiences, no hard fact, no real numbers, just guesstimation and assumption.  Pre-marital sex, again no hard number provided, and no evidence to back it up.  And adultery, taken off of a single survey you saw in your newspaper, and again i remind you that all news sources, you said it yourself, put a spin on things.  Plus, i extremely doubt that the numbers that were in that poll were of people in the teenage age bracket, since most of us arent even married yet, therefore incapable of adultery of any form.

...the bible was removed from our very existence by radical left-wing activists...[/color]

You know, it's funny that you say that, since nobody is stopping you from reading the bible, and it's obviously still very much a part of your existence, and the existence of a vast majority of Americans.

[SanitarySal]

Ghostsniper, since you profess to be a Christian man,  will you please tell me how you resolve the issue of murder  and how it contradicts the commandent sent by God to Moses "Thous Shalt Not Kill" especially in the case of Iraq where the US has killed thousands of non-combatants.

For me the issues duscussed here seem very relevant.   As an athiest, who was raised as a beleving methodist christian and who did bible studies in a Methodist and Baptist (for a short period) environment and then having spent two years in a catholic elementary school I also worry the the fall of religion in thous country is leading to a moral crisis within the country.  The Pope has also acknolwedged this.

However I am not religious and I do not beleive in a GOD, primarily because it seem unlogical, but also because of the contradictary nature of religious zealots, who preach one thing and act the opposite.

"Thou Shalt Not Kill" is the most obvious example, and I would truly like to understand how Christians who support war resolve this apparent contradiction in their minds.

[cO.Kuza]

Now that raises the question, what's worse:

Writing this stuff, or believing in it?

If I didn't believe in it, I wouldn't have posted it.  This country is going to hell in a handbasket, and nobody can see past their "civil liberties".  Why was saying the Pledge of Allegiance and having the Bible publicly read in school not a "bad" thing until fairly recently (say in the last 20 to 30 years or so)?

no more blood for oil, we got enought battles to fight on our own soil.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Lies... sometimes

Cheating... no

Stealing... no (Peer to Peer is legal in Canada)

Premarital sex... against your religion not mine.

last one, N/A

NEXT!

[spike]

What about anal myst? I know thats a sin

[*DAMN Hazard]

Cheating...sure, not everyone cheats, but I would venture to say that a good percentage of the population does.[/size]

Please get back to me with your catholic priest numbers, I mean the people you trust are the people who are the real cheaters, they cheat on their own God.

You may claim to be the most honest person in the world but it's too bad your not honest with yourself about the shit that comes out of your mouth.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Ghostsniper, since you profess to be a Christian man,  will you please tell me how you resolve the issue of murder  and how it contradicts the commandent sent by God to Moses "Thous Shalt Not Kill" especially in the case of Iraq where the US has killed thousands of non-combatants.

God himself told his chosen people to make war on people in the Old Testament.  Killing during war is not the same thing as murder.[/size]

[spike]

Ghostsniper, since you profess to be a Christian man,  will you please tell me how you resolve the issue of murder  and how it contradicts the commandent sent by God to Moses "Thous Shalt Not Kill" especially in the case of Iraq where the US has killed thousands of non-combatants.

God himself told his chosen people to make war on people in the Old Testament.  Killing during war is not the same thing as murder.[/size]

I agree with that. During WWII the priests gave the many of the soldiers absolution for the sins they were about to commit in the name of their country.

[Maniac]

Funny how one person cough* (GhostSniper) can hold his on against a bunch of.... well I'm not going there i would say more, but unfortunately I'm not so nice. Plus i don't want to put any more flames in BFG's eyes . 

[SanitarySal]

You see that is one of the things that scares me about religion, Christian preists telling their soldiers God will accept them if they kill in battle.   Muslim Clerics telling their beleivers Allah will accept them if they fight the enemy.   The "chosen" jews who think they are doing Gods will by killing people and reclaiming land they say God gave them.   I don't know, seems like a bunch of bullshit that politicians use to manipulate the people.

Warning sign:   If anyone tells you it is OK to kill another human being, you might want to get a second opinion.

It seems to me like the people who claim to value values, lack values themselves.   Ghostsniper, illustrated violence and murder as things he thought were degrading values, yet at the same time he thinks violence and murder is OK, sometimes.

My roommate is another example.   She is hot by the way.   She claims to be a person of values but she is often sleeping around with men she meets at a bar.

My college professor was also a Baptist Preacher with 2 children.   He was always very judgmental of the students, chastising them for drinking a drop.   Then he fucked a student, got her prenant, left his wife of 30 years, and abandoned his kids to start a new family with the girl who was 25 years younger than him.  He also stole his wifes life savings and blew it on his new girl.

In my experience it is those who arent professing their values that seem to be the most morally straight.

[*DAMN Bondo]

God himself told his chosen people to make war on people in the Old Testament.  Killing during war is not the same thing as murder.[/size]

That is precisely the justification the terrorists use. They are fighting a war by their definition.

The stats I've seen say at least 95% of people have sex before marriage...25% of the US is evangelicals who are so anti-premarital sex. How the hell can you blame liberals for this? You have a log in your eye.

Of course I think this whole opposition to premarital sex insults God. You think god cares about marriage. You think he goes, "oh, Britney married him and then had sex with him? I guess it is ok now even though she doesn't love him." But no, those people who are truly in love are damned if they have sex before marriage. I hold God to a higher respect that he looks inside of us and can judge us on more than legal documentation.

You want to know how much the bible has been removed from our existance? The daily newspaper here, circulation 95,000, delivered a copy of the New Testament in the Sunday paper a few weeks back (it was a paid advertisement.) Yeah, it is so damned hard to get your hands on a bible these days and read it. I've got three of my own, there are about ten in the house. I can take it off the bookshelf and read it anytime I want.

[Brutha]

Ok, what is morality? what are the rules of morality? Those rules are pushed a little further for every generation. I could say I am a person that never broke any of the moral codes in the bible(I would be lying but lets pretend). Yet I drive my car to work, alone, everyday. In my country I would be viewed as a person of low moral stature, since I polluite and only think of myself(taking public transportation would have only cost me 15 more minutes). The moral codes of a society is not set by a 2000 year old book, at least not anymore. And to be honest, I think the period of enlightenment in the 18th century put a stop to that(at least in Europe, but I know some were influenced in America too). The moral codes are set by every generation and may differ from country to country.

Have you been to Britain, or Norway, GS? Notice a funny thing? Police here are not armed. Yet, in my country we have female Bishops, open discussions that do not get heated about homosexuality within the church(we have gay priests). We do not however, allow gay marriages yet, but they are allowed to enter "parnterhood" which gives them scimilar rights. Downloading of music occurs. We get the same music as you(though not all, but I am so tired of "gansta rap"). We watch the same movies. I am sure that adultry is being done as I write this, and that goes for premarital sex. We do what most americans do(except vote for Bush), everyday. Yet our crimerate is lower than yours.

What worries me is that giant fines was given in America for showing a seccond or two of an ugly, saggy breast(Janet Jackson at the superbowl). A comedian here showed his penis on prime time TV and all he got was a lot of phonecalls from desperate women. The rest of us just laughed at it. You restrict what you can say in your music since it's deemed inproper language, and you have a strick sensorship on radio as well. What you do have that we don't is that in some states you have drive thru liquer stores. Your constitution gives you the right to bear arms, and in some states you can even carry them openly. What kind of message does that send? There are a lot of weapons in Norwegian homes too, but these are for hunting and sport only. Yeah, you can say that our population is small, and not as diverse as in America, but I think that your government goes about it the wrong way, and you suffer more from it than if guns were not allowed.

Oh we have had this discussion so many times before and I just wish to end this post with saying that I think at least 90 percent of the Americans are decent people(perhaps even more). Yes, even GS. But I don't think the problems you have can be traced back to the lack in christian moral values and the absence of the Bible in schools. As someone so nicely pointed out earlier, parents have a responsibility to raise their own children(though the schools have a responsibility of following up on that), but rather a misguided belief in freedom, you have it, but in my view it's the wrong freedom. In every society, every member of it has to give up some freedom, to have freedom at all. It's the way of things.

Again, my oppinion and you are free to disagree if you wish.

[Abe 2.0]

Funny how one person cough* (GhostSniper) can hold his on against a bunch of....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
That was hilarious, i hope the new forum will have lots of these. Dude, ghostsniper is doing what he always: Repeating himself over and over, flexing his stupidity muscle and ignoring every intelligent post, by the poor folks who havent realized that there is no poin to attempting rational debate with a self-inflating, proselytizing, southern baboon, such as GS. I still try sometimes myself.

Gs, it's all nice and well that you like your religion, but all that stuff about freedom in the US constitution means that we don't attempt to force our religion on others. And that's one of the best things about; it's a shame that you don't realize that, despite all the patriotism you profess every time you post on these boards. People can make up their minds by themselves and do whatever they think is best for them. At the same time, i think they could have a class in schools for morality and ethics in a philosophical way (though they would have to talk about religion too obviously). The whole point of public education is that it is public, so send your kids to a religious school if you wan't them to be educated with religious values.

And the author of this is Ollie North? That's kindof ironic because he was a bit of a liar and a cheater himself. He disgraced his country and lied to everyone congress, everybody.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

And the author of this is Ollie North? That's kindof ironic because he was a bit of a liar and a cheater himself. He disgraced his country and lied to everyone congress, everybody.

Marine LtCol Oliver L. North, Ret., is a Patriot.  He was a military man who was ordered to do everything that he did or said during the time of Iran-Contra, and he followed those orders to the letter.  The man sat in the same room with the President of the United States during every National Security briefing while he was in that position, and what was done by the President, the NSA, the CIA, and the U.S. Military was done for what they believed was a good cause to HELP the United States.  You can't blame Oliver North for following orders while he was a commissioned officer of the United States.  That was his job.  I have met him and talked to him on many occassions...he has been friends with my parents for about 16 years.  And sorry if I believe him personally, having talked to him about this stuff, over any of you in here (most of which were not even born yet when Iran-Contra happened, or were too young to even remember it).

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

[spike]

Marine LtCol Oliver L. North, Ret., is a Patriot.  He was a military man who was ordered to do everything that he did or said during the time of Iran-Contra, and he followed those orders to the letter.

Hm, that defense seems familiar...from the Nuremburg Trials perhaps?

[*DAMN Bondo]

by the poor folks who havent realized that there is no poin to attempting rational debate with a self-inflating, proselytizing, southern baboon, such as GS. I still try sometimes myself.

I do it because I like to read myself write not to change GS 

Spike, it does sound like Nuremburg, but the Iran-Contra thing was simply a legal issue (AFAIK), not a war crime, and that makes it vastly different. Not that it suddenly makes Ollie North a wonderful, brilliant man.

[spike]

Oh, I am aware of the different circumstances, I'm just pointing out how that excuse can be used to justify most anything. Of course, most of the Nazi's were convicted and executed.

[BFG]

In the Iran-Contra Affair, United States President Ronald Reagan's administration secretly sold arms to Iran, which was engaged in a bloody war with its neighbor Iraq from 1980 to 1988 (see Iran-Iraq War), and diverted the proceeds to the Contra rebels fighting to overthrow the leftist and allegedly democratically-elected Sandinista government of Nicaragua. Those sales thus had a dual goal: appeasing Iran, which had influence with militant groups that held several American hostages in Lebanon and supported bombings in Western European countries, and funding a guerrilla war aimed at aborting Nicaraguan independence from US hegemony.[ for more info see link at bottom of page]

Both transactions were contrary to acts of Congress, which prohibited the funding of the Contras and the sale of weapons to Iran. In addition, both activities violated UN sanctions.

Marine LtCol Oliver L. North, Ret., is a Patriot.  He was a military man who was ordered to do everything that he did or said during the time of Iran-Contra, and he followed those orders to the letter

Yes sounds just like it dosn't it. And this is where i get scared about this use of the word Patriotism. It seems to be used as some kind of justification for someones actions - If your Country does somthing then you cannot question it without being "unpatriotic"... So do morals not matter in this situation GS? All i can see throughtout the argument in this thread are constant double standards - be it "love thy Neighbour" but blow the fucker up"  be it the disgust at greed etc - but you have to be able to drive your SUV because its your right... and so forth.  Oh and its ok to sell arms that will be used to kill thousands of people beacuse your being Patriotic?

Morals and Ethics are not souly found in Christianity Ghostsniper, and im sure your not going to argue that. In fact given the Fundamentalist views of some Christians it would be very easy to argue the opposite - that there is an undermining of Morals and Ethics. Let me discuss some of todays healines with you in todays paper -

"America's human rights abuses have provided a rallying cry for terrorists and set a a bad example to regimes seeking to justify their own poor rights records, a leading independant watch dog said yeserday.
The torture and degreading treatments of prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay have undermined the credibility of the US as a defender of human rights and opponent of terrorism. The New York-based Human Rights watch says in its annual report.
"The US goverment is less and less able to push for justice abroad because it is unwilling to see justice done at Home".

Yesterdays scathing report argues that the US has weakened its own moral authority at a time that authority is most needed, "Iin the midst of a seeming epidemic of suicide bombings, beheadings, and other attacks on civilians and concombatants."
"When the United States disregards human rights, it undermines that human rights culture and thus sabotages one of the most inportant tools for dissuading potential terrorists. Instad, US abuses have provided a new rallying cry for terrorist recruiters, and the pictures from Abu Ghraib have become the recruiting posters for Terrorism, Inc.

The White house secretly persuaded Congress to overturn legislation passed last month by a 96-2 Senate vote that would have inposed restrictuions on extreme interrogations methods.

Also in the British media recently has been the good news that finally the British have been able to secure the release of the remaining "detainees" at Guantanamo Bay" - they are bing released withought charge... after four years they are not being charged with a single offence. Two of them will seek action against the US with alagations of Tourture and widespread abuse.

But this all comes back to exactly what you said at the start You Reap what you Sow GhostSniper. Which makes no sense given you don't seem to be disagreing with what is being sown by the US goverment... but you don't like what is being reaped.

Lastly here is some information on the iran-Contra scandel for those that don't know

Funny how one person cough* (GhostSniper) can hold his on against a bunch of....

Yeah i couldn't help but laugh as well abe. I gues maniac just didn't read anything except GS's Posts.

[*DAMN Hazard]

Ghostsniper you have failed to answer any of my questions or address any of my points. This isn't a debate it's just stupidity and ignorance in written form.

Enjoy your "intellectual" debate because this is far from intellectual conversation and far from a debate.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Just like when you win in myth