It Did Not Happen Overnight...

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Im with everybody else that's posted on this.  Im not a lacking in conscience, i know right from wrong, and very clearly so.  I find the idea of taking someone elses life abhorid, and the only reason i can ever imagine taking someone elses life, is when it is unavoidably necessary.  

I personally find it insulting that you would believe this of me, and the people of my age group that i know.  There were only a handful of less than admirable students at my highschool, the rest, i have every confidence will turn into upstanding citizens of this country, get married, be good husbands and wives, and raise fantastic children.  Not become wife beating, drug addicted, murdering thugs.  That you believe this of my friends, i also find personally insulting.

When the incidents at the Abu Ghirab pison occured, you vehemently spoke out against anybody on these forums who believed the entire military was that way.  You said it was just a few bad apples giving the entire service a bad name, and putting it in a bad light.  Well perhaps you should see this  generation in the same way.  School shootings, use of hard drugs, rape, murder, all those things are commited by a very small minority of my, our, generation, not by the overwhelming majority.  

Correlation is not causation.

[*DAMN Hazard]

Is it really that bad if we don't?

[BTs_Mysterio]

Brutha: If they are forced to know these things then yes. If they are told it often enough they will believe it. Forcing people to learn about a certain religion won't let them choose for themselves what they want, not what the voting public wants from them.

[Brutha]

Don't know, I am just speaking of how it is here and asking a question.  and for Myst. To enhance the understanding of other religions I believe it is. But thats me, and guess thats why I am taking courses on it. And, teacher are not preaching at school anymore. That ended some time ago.

[*DAMN Hazard]

I don't think it's a bad thing but America is about having choices and when you tell someone that what they believe is wrong and tell them that they shouldn't have a choice in what to believe it angers me. This might sound very cliché but life is about choices and when you justify taking these choices away and want to reinstate rules that take away these, that scares me, it truly scares me.

Ghostsniper for 2 seconds flip your viewpoint and try to debate the otherside of it. Just try and see where we are coming from.

[BTs_Mysterio]

<applauds hazard>

Here in Canada the only belief expectation of us in school is to stand for Oh Canada every morning. We are influenced to be good people, but not through the use of any bibles or other religious symbols. Oh and yes we do have courses for religious studies. Brutha, the picture you've drawn is seeming to resemble a type of footwear recently popularized. I thought you said people were REQUIRED to know things about religion, and implied it was due to the Christian People Party.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Yet many of you find lying, cheating, stealing, pre-marital sex, adultery, and other things as okay because society has stopped allowing the values laid out in the Bible to be taught in school.  

Many of us, huh?  So how many?  You seem pretty sure of yourself, so put a number on it, what percentage, of this generation find all those things you listed as ok?  If you're going to tell me you cant find an accurate number, because it's impossible to poll all of us, and get accurate answers, then how do you know 'many' of us are that way?  Just from hearsay?  From the news, which you yourself acknowledge is biased?  Hearsay is exagerated, the news -focuses- on the negative elements of society and human nature.  It doesnt give the full picture.  That is the simple truth.  So if you dont get your vast knowledge about this generation from what people you know tell you, or the news, where do you get it from?  And what makes you think that you can come here, and tell us the kind of people we are?  That you fought in Kosovo?  Wrong.  That you're older than us? Doubly wrong.  That you are richer than we are?  You know where this is going.  

[*DAMN Bondo]

Brutha, the main problem in the US is that they aren't wanting to simply teach about religion. The people in the US who are so adamant about getting religion in the schools are fundamentalist evangelicals who have an exclusivist view of religion, that only their religion is right (I'm a Lutheran of Norwegian heritage and I've been told I'm not a Christian by evangelicals.) While I object to GS's premise that somehow you need religion to have values, as secular ethical logic shows that theft and any number of other things are wrong, I wouldn't object to a role of religion in schools if it was in the form of teaching about World religions and about tolerance rather than teaching that Christianity is right and that other religions and science is wrong. Knowing about religion is immensely important in this world since it guides so much in the way of cultural clash and socially explains much.

[Brutha]

Heh, no, it's not due to that party, sorry if you thought that. We have always been required to LEARN about religion, but the schools are also required to TEACH and not PREACH. Two very different things. We are given the choice and Non believers are equal to believers. But, religion is there in our society and thats why I think ppl need to learn about it to better understand eachothers perspective.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Brutha, I think you got the misconception we are talking about education about religion, we have education about religion on occasion here too. Bondo was very accurate in what he said. Also, do they not teach you tolerance and stuff down there?

[Brutha]

Thats what is meant with seeing the other perspective of things   So yeah, definatly. Ethics is also teached alongside with religion. It's not a matter of forcing religion upon kids, but more teaching them understanding. Religion is tought just like history and other subjects.

[BTs_Mysterio]

I wasn't aware history was tough. The worst subject religion already has too much influence on is science. Evolution should be taught!

[Brutha]

True, and it is. Creationism isn't a main focus in the religion classes, but a main focus in biology. Oh they learn the stories, but it's not tought as the truth.

P.s. Only two countries in this world is ruled by priests....Iran..and Norway...But we do not have WMD'S, so don't come knocking on our door.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Ah! But you have OIL!  Youll be hearing from us soon...

 

 

EDIT-  And no ammount of lutefisk can scare us off!!

[Brutha]

DAMN YOU!!!!

[BTs_Mysterio]

Speaking of WMD, why hasn't anyone posted a thread about the Bush administration admitting there are no WMD in Iraq?

[BFG]

Becasue it would be unpatriotic? Or just the views of a small minded Liberal who had no moral values?

[BTs_Mysterio]

Was that in reply to my question? The person who said it may be small minded, but Bush is no liberal.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

 Yet many of you find lying, cheating, stealing, pre-marital sex, adultery, and other things as okay because society has stopped allowing the values laid out in the Bible to be taught in school.

Do you have empirical evidence of this? Call me crazy, but if the government chronically lies, commits mass murder, and shows utter contempt for human life in general, what message does this send our children?

 Of course the liberals love this, because deep down inside they want the world to be a filthy place with no morals and even less values.

I would take offensive to such a statement, but I no longer believe in the pre-packaged labeling of people. It's bullshit, designed to keep us divided, and thus weak in the light of authoritarian rule. Also, if I were a "liberal", i would be giddy, because the world seems to be a filthy place with no morals and even less values (ie. the U.S. government).

Governments by nature are evil. Having values taught by our government is fucking looney. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you want the government, through public schools, to teach young people values. I find that a bit hypocritical coming from a self-proclaimed "conservative". Does conservatism not profess less government intervention in our lives?

The responsibility for teaching morals and values lies with the parents and the parents alone. Schools are there to teach kids to read, write and wipe their asses.

Even more hilarious, is the fact that Oliver North of all people wrote that. Oliver North was the White House official that was most directly involved in secretly aiding the contras, selling arms to Iran, and diverting Iran arms sales proceeds to the contras. He was indicted on 16 felony counts, and convicted of 3; accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents. Quite the pillar of moral superiority.

About the WMD's, not too big of deal, nowadays lying about a blow job gets more congressional scrutiny than lying about a war. Boosh is happy though because infrastructure rebuilding contracts and the construction of 12 permanent military bases are well under way, and thus a strategic victory for U.S. imperial desires.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Yet many of you find lying, cheating, stealing, pre-marital sex, adultery, and other things as okay because society has stopped allowing the values laid out in the Bible to be taught in school.  

Many of us, huh?  So how many?  You seem pretty sure of yourself, so put a number on it, what percentage, of this generation find all those things you listed as ok?  If you're going to tell me you cant find an accurate number, because it's impossible to poll all of us, and get accurate answers, then how do you know 'many' of us are that way?  Just from hearsay?  From the news, which you yourself acknowledge is biased?  Hearsay is exagerated, the news -focuses- on the negative elements of society and human nature.  It doesnt give the full picture.  That is the simple truth.  So if you dont get your vast knowledge about this generation from what people you know tell you, or the news, where do you get it from?  And what makes you think that you can come here, and tell us the kind of people we are?  That you fought in Kosovo?  Wrong.  That you're older than us? Doubly wrong.  That you are richer than we are?  You know where this is going.  

Everybody lies.  Even those "little white lies" that you don't count is still lying.  If you tell me you don't lie, well, I don't believe you.  Cheating...sure, not everyone cheats, but I would venture to say that a good percentage of the population does.  If nobody cheated, then why would we need a rule book so big filled with things about cheating?  Stealing....oh, I think I have pretty much everyone on this.  Every person who has ever downloaded a song illegally, has pirated a piece of software, or made illegal copies of music or software has stolen.  So, although there is probably a very very small percentage of people who have never stolen anything, I am just about the most honest person on earth who would never even think of stealing, and I can tell you that I've done some of those things in the past....so even I am guilty of it.  Pre-marital sex.  Come on, can anyone here honestly tell me they don't think that 99 percent of everyone in the world is getting laid before they get married?  And now we get to adultery.  I included this one because I just this morning read an article about how one-third of all men, and one-fourth of all women have admitted to having extra-marital intercourse during their marriage.  And the article went on to say that the numbers are probably much much higher because most people are unwilling to talk about it.

So, that is what I'm basing this on.  I'm not saying I'm any better than anyone else, because I have done most of these things myself.  I'm just saying that the moral/value system in this country, and around the world, has gone downhill dramatically in the last 30 years.  And it was during this same time period that the Bible was removed from our very existence by radical left-wing activists (the ACLU rings a bell).[/size]