Cynical world

[Supernatural Pie]

44,000.

[BeefyFigure]

51,000 is the latest figure. It's simply breathtaking the amount of people that lost their lives in Asia. 9/11, Darfur, Asia. . .where is the world going to?

[SanitarySal]

You forgot the invasion of Iraq and the murder of thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq.
Estimates of as many as 17,000 have been made http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ and since the US government doesnt care to count do a body count on the civilians they have killed, IBC is the most valid authority.

As for Dafur, you might ask yourself what legitimate interest the United states had in funding and supporting the rebel movement in Sudan which ultimately lead to the harsh action being taken agaisnt the rebels by the recognized government of Sudan.

Why the US supported the Kosvo Rebel movement inside Yugoslovia, which lead to harsh action being taken against them by teh Yugoslov government.

Why the US supported the Kurd and Shiite Movements in Iraq, which lead to harsh action being taken agains them by the Iraqi government?

Why the US supported the South Vietnamese which lead feirce conflict and civil war whcih ultimately lead to a US defeat in Vietnam.

Why the US supported Israeli occupation of the Palestinian land, maintained a large military presence in Saudi Arabia and supported crippling santions on Iraq, which were used by lead AlQueda to justify the harsh action taken against the US in the form of the 911 attacks.

Why the US supported supported the oppressive Batista Givernment in Cuba which ultimately lead to the overthrow of the Cuban government in a  revolution lead by Fidel Castro.

Why the US supported oppressive Jean Birtrand-Arisitde Government in Haiti which ultimately lead to a revolution in Haiti and the forcible expulsion of the Haitian President.

You see a pattern here right?   I mean I agree with you when it comes to natural disasters, these events are hard to comprehend, but when it comes to man-made catastrophes, the explanation is really quite simple and easy to grasp.    It seems that people around the world have a universal dislike for the American propensity to stick its long reaching nose in other peoples affairs.   And a few of those people actually to stand up to us?   The fultile nerve!

[BFG]

SanitarySal while i don't agree with your theory on the Quake in Asia, that last post has made me want to give you a big hug, and say thankyou a million freaking times.... Unfortunatly our current British goverment seems to be thinking along the same warped lines as the Bush Administration and co, all i can say is there are a lot of people across the world who are very unhappy with what is being done in the name of 'democracy' and 'freedom'. I said before how these kind of disasters show just how small and insignificant we are, but on the flip side, every individual counts, every difference every change we makes adds up - so when i walk to and from University everyday, recyle my rubbish, use low energy lightbulbs, write to my MP's repeatedly to complain about the British Goverments actions, participate in demonstrations or rallys, give what little money i have towards charitys trying to fight the suffering and pain that we cause, or whatever its making a difference - because i know that little tiny bit is being added up to somthing much bigger.  

And for that we are all responsible, every time we get in the car,  watch the news, read the paper, interact with the world and accept and ignore or react to what goes on in this world. Sometimes a bit more NIMBY regarding the world  wouldn't go amiss.

[BeefyFigure]

You cannot blame the United States for, and I quote, "[sticking] its long reaching nose in other peoples affairs", either during the 20th century or the 21st. It is acting solely with concern to the Truman Doctrine opened a vast new era of world politics that persists today beyond the erstwhile communist threat. It is thanks to them that today liberty of speech is permitted and exercisable in Europe.

[SanitarySal]

Is that the same Truman who has the distinct honor of being the only human being in history to order the use of Nuclear bombs on a civilians targets?  Yeah he sounds like a nice guy.

And to correct what you said about liberty of speech being permitted and exercisable in Europe.  It isnt.

For example the mere mention or symbols of some political parties or ideology is banned in Europe and especially Germany.   Now you may think censoring free speech is justified, however it does contradict your statement about liberty of speech.

Some say "the only speech worth protecting is questionable speech, safe speech needs no protection"

[BeefyFigure]

Before even resorting to the use of the atomic bomb in Japan, Truman had a vast array of options laid out before him, much like Kennedy had during the Cuban missile crisis. Albeit costly in human lives Truman ended definitively the Second World War.  And, just for the record, the atomic bomb has been used only twice and solely in wartime. Today Japan is a steadfast ally of the United States.

Perhaps it is true that freedom of speech is somewhat limited in Europe, but compare today's possibilities with those of the Third Reich or the Soviet Union under Stalin.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I've been pretty quiet with my rheteric lately, but I'm just about sick of this thread now.  You same mother fuckers who say the United States should keep the fuck out of other people's business are the same mother fuckers who were on your knees begging us to come free you from Germany and Austria-Hungary during World War I.  And you were the same mother fuckers who were on your knees begging us to come free you from Nazi Germany and the other Axis powers during World War II.  Well, hind-sight is really fucking groovy guys, but at the time your grandparents were pretty fucking Pro-American.

All of you can go collectively fuck yourselves.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

P.S.  I was in one of those fuck-ups personally.  It was called Kosovo.  And here you had genocide being committed right in your fucking back yard and who the fuck did Europe get to come in and do their shit work?  That's right boys and girls...ME and the Fucking United States of America.

Fuck you very much....good day!

[SanitarySal]

What you fail to understand Army grunt are the socio-political factors behind your accusation of genocide.

Then Secretary of State Medlein Albright met with the Yugoslov President in peace talks hosted by the French.   What you might not have followed as a grunt soldier, is that the Secretary of State really failed in her diplomacy because a military action was the preferred method of settlement.   As a grunt soldier, you should be concerned when your polticians want to put the burden of diplomacy on the backs of average Americans.   When you join the Army you swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, not travel 3000 miles over the Atlantic Ocean to deny those same constitutional rights to other people, simply because they are not American.

As for Kosovo, it was an air war.   A cake walk compared to Iraq, where I served the United States in 2003.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

What you fail to understand Army grunt are the socio-political factors behind your accusation of genocide.

Then Secretary of State Medlein Albright met with the Yugoslov President in peace talks hosted by the French.   What you might not have followed as a grunt soldier, is that the Secretary of State really failed in her diplomacy because a military action was the preferred method of settlement.   As a grunt soldier, you should be concerned when your polticians want to put the burden of diplomacy on the backs of average Americans.   When you join the Army you swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, not travel 3000 miles over the Atlantic Ocean to deny those same constitutional rights to other people, simply because they are not American.

As for Kosovo, it was an air war.   A cake walk compared to Iraq, where I served the United States in 2003.

We are not talking about the same operation in Kosovo.  The one you are referring to happened several years after the one I was involved in.  And I promise you, even as a Ranger, it was no cake walk.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Say um, didnt this start off about the earthquake/tsunami in S.E. Asia?  

Funny how everybody forgot about them so quick, and smoothely segued into arguing about things everybody has already argued about over and over again...

hmmmm

[.vooDoo.]

Indeed Wolf. Lets not dishonor the deaths of those who died by fighting with each other. Lets get back on topic.

voo

[BFG]

It appears the current number dead is aprox 60,000. Its difficult to comprehend just how many people that is - as for the number affected - lost loved ones, homes and jobs etc god only knows.

When natural disasters strike these days, the international response tends to be the same - immediate interest, immediate help but long term neglect.

A year ago, Bam was struck by an massive earthquake. It killed aprox 30,000 people. The international Response was imediate interest, however  survivors are still living in temporary shelters.... Where is the help now?

[SanitarySal]

76,700 is the current toll.   Unfathomable.   Words can not adequately describe our sense of loss.   So many people, and this toll is obviously not yet complete.

Of course I feel horribly for the senseless loss of so many human beings.    But in some regards I realize how much worse I would feel if this had been a man-made catastrophy.   Thank god it was a creation of Mother-Nature.  Still I really dont know what to say to the idea of losing nearly 100,000 (perhaps more) fellow human beings in the blink of an eye.

The empty feeling I have in my heart left there by the departure of so many souls leads me to think of what our response should be.   As an American, a citizen of the wealthiest country on earth, a beneficiary of the export products many that of the victimized nations provided to the US I think it is our responsibility as Americans to provide significant and immediate aide without strings attached to the millions of survivors also in the blink of an eye found themselves without food, water, shelter, medical supplies or any means to provide for their children.


I was listenign to Cspan radio yesterday and the state department spokesman said the US had offered a total of $20 million in loans.   In Loans?   In essence any nation accepting our aide would then become indebted to us?   Are you fucking kidding me?   Nearly 100,000 people lose their lives and my country sees this an an opportunity to play banker with poorer countries who are victimized?

What was even more astonishing were my fellow Americans who called in and claimed this was too much aide.   And that because Indonesia  has a large Muslim population it is not the responsibility of America to help.   I'm sorry, but when I hear stupid comments like this over and over coming from my fellow Americans I find it more difficult to identify myself with my so-called compatriots and begin to think of myself as a citizen of the world.   One thing is for damn sure, none of the victims of this Tsunami have ever cut me off in traffic or suffer from the uniquely American phenoma of road-rage.

Why the fuck can my country only spare 20,000,000 million is loans?  Considering the the devestation to human life, the apocolyptic destruction of infrastructure, the damage to homes, food, water, sewage problems, health related issues, 20 million is a fucking Joke.

The UN Official who claimed the US had been stingy in its offer of aid was absolutely WRONG!   That was a compliment.  THe United States hasnt been stingy, we have been absolutely criminally negligent to our fellow human beings.  Shame on US!  Shame on our leadership (democrats and republicans alike)!!!

[spike]

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I think this is a good example of how no matter what the outcome, someone is going to complain about it.

[BFG]

From the BBC (UK) News website:

The US, Australia, Japan and India will form an international coalition to lead relief efforts after the Indian Ocean sea surges, the US president has said.

"We will stand with them as they start to rebuild their communities," George W Bush announced at his ranch in Texas.

The US has already pledged $35m and sent its navy to help the aid effort.

Mr Bush predicted that other countries would join the "core group" and backed calls for a tsunami alert system after what he called a "terrible disaster".

"These past few days have brought loss and grief to the world that is beyond our comprehension," he added in his first comments since Sunday's disaster, which has so far killed 68,000 people.

The president said he had talked to the leaders in the affected region and was working to target initial relief efforts to the things most required.

Also on Wednesday the UK government pledged ?15m ($29m) to help the first phase of the relief effort - making Britain the second largest donor after the US.

German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has called for a moratorium on debt repayment for two of the affected nations, Somalia and Indonesia.

Many other governments and bodies - including Canada, Australia, European countries and the UN - are sending aid.

And a pretty shocking before and after picture...

[spike]

From the BBC (UK) News website:

Also on Wednesday the UK government pledged ?15m ($29m) to help the first phase of the relief effort - making Britain the second largest donor after the US.

...meaning that in comparison to the rest of the world, the us isnt actually that stingy...

[BFG]

take a quick look at the apple website

[BTs_GhostSniper]

take a quick look at the apple website

Yeah, I saw that the other day.  Apple did something similar right after the Sept 11 attack.  Always makes me feel good that I support a company like that.  Not many companies in the world still have a heart.

[Supernatural Pie]

114,000