VP Debate

[*DAMN Bondo]

In the question per question breakdown I had it about Edwards 11 to Cheney's 7. However, I think overall it was generally a tie. The debate was just too boring and both men did generally well in style and skill for either side to really "win." There was no bad mistakes like Bush made last time. I think It was maybe slight advantage Cheney on foreign policy but that Edwards stood out far ahead of Cheney in real terms on domestic issues.

A few general comments on the style/skill battle before I get into the substance. I thought Edwards too often answered the last question before addressing the current one. Generally the rebuttal times were wasted. Finally, Cheney seemed more hunched over and stared down at the table (or at the moderator) while Edwards kept his eyes more level and looked more at the camera.

Cheney had a major problem with lies, deceptions, or just ignoring facts. About Iraqi developments he ignored reports that there were no Iraq-terrorist links. He talked about how Iraq was a nexus of terrorism and WMD, which is why it was the best choice to attack?except that ?nexus? was based on bad intelligence or even from twisting intelligence. He also denied claiming Iraq was connected to Al Queda which he has done too many times to count. He says Kerry has always been on the wrong side about defense, yet Kerry voted against the weapon systems Cheney said to remove when he was Secretary of Defense.

On Afghanistan, Cheney was sunny about the elections but ignores that it isn?t very safe and that war lords/drug lords have control of a lot. He constantly distorted voting records of Kerry and Edwards, he way overdid the ?flip-flop? thing and in the question near the end about it, since Kerry is now inoculated against the claim having been clear about his position on Thursday, hurt the Bush Administration. He was also too often on the defensive. Cheney also lied about Kerry?s record on voting against tax cuts.

I thought Edwards did a better job than Kerry in illustrating a plan for how they will make Iraq better. A little bothered that he used Kerry?s $200 billion number since even though it is accurate in a way, the press will ignore the subtlety. I think his clear populist message on taxes will resonate with the public. He makes fiscal responsibility a greater emphasis.

While I admit I?m disappointed that the Democrats will not stand up for gay rights, they at least have a middle ground and Edwards made it clear why same sex benefits are necessary even if he doesn?t support marriage. Edwards comes off more moderate than Cheney who comes off weak and unprincipled, just submitting to Bush. This was also a moment of kind of unity between the two?so much touchy feeliness between the two I thought they should just get married (ok, bad humor.)

I thought Edwards was very strong on tort reform, and very moderate. Cheney?s plan just attacks lawsuits whether they are good or bad, while Edwards? plan makes sure the bad ones stay out period. Edwards was also smart to point out that the lawsuits is an insignificant aspect of the liability insurance increases. My mom, who is in health insurance now, says that the rates are higher due to larger numbers of uninsured people dumping costs on hospitals so that the insured have to pick up the difference (at least I think that was the gist of it.)

I was a bit irritated by the inability of Edwards to be critical of Israel in any way, I see more of the same regardless of who is elected in not being able to be neutral in dealing with the Israel/Palestine issue. Anyway, overall the debate was even and will have no great effect on the election. If anything, Edwards getting the populist message out will strengthen some undecided voters.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Too bad these debates don't matter at all.  Bush will still win in November.[/size]

[The Golden Shark]

funny how you republicans say that shit now, but if cheney had won, you woul be boasting like a mother fucker.... These Dems need to man up, and just call out the republicans for what they are LIARS!! not all this "he distorted this... blah blah blah."

["Sixhits"]

John's the fucking man.  He called out Cheney on his lies abour Iraq and Al Queda, called him on confabulating Saddam and 9/11, and  got Cheney to lie twice on tape ("I've never met you before" and "I never said there was a link between Iraq and al Queda")



Did Cheney just forget or is he a pathological liar?

and


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3080244/

MR. RUSSERT: The Washington Post asked the American people about Saddam Hussein, and this is what they said: 69 percent said he was involved in the September 11 attacks. Are you surprised by that?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: No. I think it?s not surprising that people make that connection.

MR. RUSSERT: But is there a connection?

VICE PRES. CHENEY: We don?t know. You and I talked about this two years. You and I talked about this two years ago. I can remember you asking me this question just a few days after the original attack. At the time I said no, we didn?t have any evidence of that. Subsequent to that, we?ve learned a couple of things. We learned more and more that there was a relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda that stretched back through most of the decade of the ?90s, that it involved training, for example, on BW and CW, that al-Qaeda sent personnel to Baghdad to get trained on the systems that are involved. The Iraqis providing bomb-making expertise and advice to the al-Qaeda organization.

(what more quotes and links to when he connected Saddam to 9/11? I got them)

Liar. Caught red handed. On video and in transcripts.

Opps.



And is it just me or did Cheney make Bush look like a loser?  I mean, when your VP has to carry all the water for you, boy, are you a pussy.

[cookie]

Edwards comes off more moderate than Cheney who comes off weak and unprincipled, just submitting to Bush.

IMO, Cheney is the brains of the operation and the mastermind behind most FP decisions. I don't think he submits to Bush at all, rather vice versa.

-----------------------------

I think the debate went rather well for both candidates. Cheney, unlike Bush, is a very well-groomed speaker and goes for the jugular with every statement he makes. It might be false, but it looks good to the average viewer.

Conversely, Edwards presented himself equally well. He seems confident and direct. Though not as "vicious" as Cheney per se, he didn't allow himself to be backed into a corner and held his own.

My take on it.

[*DAMN Bondo]

And is it just me or did Cheney make Bush look like a loser?  I mean, when your VP has to carry all the water for you, boy, are you a pussy.

The pundits were talking about how the debate Thursday and then last night strengthen the image of Cheney as pulling Bush's puppet strings (not saying that is actually the case, just talking about impression.) You'll notice Edwards mentioned Kerry all the time, even twice on the question he wasn't supposed to mention Kerry's name. On the other hand Cheney maybe mentioned Bush twice altogether.

I suppose the argument could be that Edwards is just so inexperienced he can't stand on his own while Cheney can, but I think Edwards was simply doing his job of pumping up the top guy, since Kerry, not Edwards, is who they'll be voting for or against in November.

[BFG]

I think i despise Cheney even more than bush - he is nothing more than a little piece of shit.

[jn.loudnotes]

Too bad these debates don't matter at all.  Bush will still win in November.[/size]

There you go with that blind irrational faith again - the foundation of every Bush supporter's beliefs.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Unfortunately, he's most likely right. After all, the cheating voting machines are going to be used. Which means America can "say goodnight, Gracie."

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Too bad these debates don't matter at all.  Bush will still win in November.[/size]

There you go with that blind irrational faith again - the foundation of every Bush supporter's beliefs.

Look bitch, if you disagree with me then join the few who actually have a bet with me on this.  So far, Spetsnaz, Dr No, and Kuza have signed up on the bet.  All you have to do is join the list.

Here is the bet, for those of you who need a refresher:

If Kerry wins the election, I have to buy Spets, Dr No, and Kuza Premium Membership on GR.  If Bush wins, they have to come on these forums and tell everyone that I am the all-knowing, most-wise member of this forum.  Pretty simple.

Put up, or shut the fuck up, bitch.  

[cookie]

WHOA, get me in on that bet! I have no idea who will win at this point, but curse the fact that there are no hyperlinks for non-premium users like cookeh

[BTs_GhostSniper]

WHOA, get me in on that bet! I have no idea who will win at this point, but curse the fact that there are no hyperlinks for non-premium users like cookeh

Sorry cookie....but this bet is by invite only.  But I'll buy you Premium if you want me to.  

[jn.loudnotes]

Chill out with the attempted insults...I didn't know you had a bet going.  

But if you're seriously so blindly faithful, I'll be more than happy to take your wager.  I've already got the future of the nation riding on this election - having to extoll your virtues if Bush wins is hardly anything to add.  I will certainly state that you are the most all-knowing and wise member of this forum if Bush wins.

Only thing is, I have no desire for a GR premium account.  I don't use hardly use GR anymore as it is.  But I will be more than happy to let you send me $50 via PayPal if Kerry wins the election.  Are we agreed?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Only thing is, I have no desire for a GR premium account.  I don't use hardly use GR anymore as it is.  But I will be more than happy to let you send me $50 via PayPal if Kerry wins the election.  Are we agreed?

Hmmmm.  I'm not going to send you $50 in cash because I don't know what you will do with it.  For all I know you could be supporting some left-wing group like moveon.org....

So, choose from the following:

I'll buy you a $50 game of your choice, a $50 iTunes Gift Certificate, or $50 in Ford Motor Company Stock.

(the last one was a joke)

[jn.loudnotes]

iTunes, thank you.  Incidentally, I would have spent the money on consumer goods in order to help strength in the economy

And should your candidate "win," I will also add in my public message that you are truly a generous individual as well.

Oh, and in the event of a disputed election, shall we go by the winner who is actually inaugurated, or the one (if different) who wins the popular vote?

[seth]

I think i despise Cheney even more than bush - he is nothing more than a little piece of shit.

exactly, but you gotta admit that he's nothing like Bush when it comes to that kind of face to face. He's the master, and the other is the puppet.
This debate was a tie at the best, i think Cheney did score some good points, was very incisive. He didnt acknowledge Edwards at the end, rude !

The overall debate was boring.

[KoS Ultimo]

Didnt watch, game 1 of yankees twins last night  

[BTs_GhostSniper]

iTunes, thank you.  Incidentally, I would have spent the money on consumer goods in order to help strength in the economy

And should your candidate "win," I will also add in my public message that you are truly a generous individual as well.

Oh, and in the event of a disputed election, shall we go by the winner who is actually inaugurated, or the one (if different) who wins the popular vote?

iTunes Gift Certificate it is.  In the event of a disputed election, the person inaugurated is who we go by.

[*DAMN Bondo]

What I find hilarious is that Cheney directed people to factcheck.org (well, he said com but he meant org) and that site basically exposes Cheney as a big old liar, with more and worse inaccuracies than Edwards.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

What I find hilarious is that Cheney directed people to factcheck.org (well, he said com but he meant org) and that site basically exposes Cheney as a big old liar, with more and worse inaccuracies than Edwards.

Well, then at least he's HONEST about his lies.