Presidential Debate

[BFG]

uninformed may lean towards Bush again this time

Oh... I thought it was just the uninformed that voted for him!!  

ok no more wise cracks. From what i watched of it Kerry handled himself better - And on several topics bush didnt seem able to come back - What really got me was this "is that the image we want to give to the guys in Iraq"

its like hes saying that if you've made a mistake you mustn't put it right and say you were wrong - you must keep going becasue otherwise you might look a bit stuipd and it might give people the inpression your not doing your job if you tell them!

[seth]

even the financial market agreed on Kerry's victory. Nasdaq is up 2%,

["Sixhits"]

Here's the best breakdown of Bush's collapse last night:

"Tonight, for the first time in a number of years, George Bush the individual -- a wholly different creature from the stage-managed president -- was forced to face his times. And the truth is that George isn't cut out for these times. He's not a capable war leader. His moral clarity is a kind term for simplicity, not a synonym for vision. His straight talk is all there is, he's not obscuring a capacity for complexity that he chooses to obscure for the sake of uninformed audiences. Tonight, George Bush was by turns petulant and belligerent, and by all accounts lacking. But the truth is that this is how George always was, the lie will be the conservatives who attempt to spin this into a single bad night. That Bush has turned in better performances before is all part of the problem. The Emperor, after all, has a coterie of very fine tailors. It's just that they insist on making clothes that are far, far, too big for him."

http://www.pandagon.net/mtarchives/003571.html

["Sixhits"]

I recent heard from a friend who ws in iraq during the original rush to bagdad.... He said that they actulay indeed found WMD in oraq.. but the weapons were not classified as wmd by the UN so they had to repost them as not being wmd.. but he said from the looks of them they were wmd.

Right.  They found them.  But the UN told them they weren't wmds.  SO Bush, the man who defied the UN to go to war, didn't trumpet the findings of these errant wmds.  

"By the looks of them." -- does your boy have x-ray eyes? Is he trained to work with nukes, chemicals, and bio tech?

Bullshit man, bullshit.  

[*DAMN Bondo]

And on several topics bush didnt seem able to come back - What really got me was this "is that the image we want to give to the guys in Iraq"

What I wonder is how much the guys in Iraq like fighting in order to have Bush squash political dissent. It really is McCarthyism what the Bush Administration is trying to do by continually shouting about Kerry's being critical of the President is helping our enemies and hurting our country. In fact, what Kerry is doing is his patriotic duty and Bush is trying to push fascism...I don't think the guys in Iraq are fighting for the cause of fascism, they are fighting for democracy...which is what Kerry is participating in. I think the Administration really needs to be hounded for their McCarthyist comments.

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

Well for tose of you who want to see this... there is a torrent on suprnova for the debate..

[Z-A-I-T-S-E-V]

Well I am glad to see that we are all varying degrees of Liberal, or at least anti-Bush. I hope you guys caught the Daily Show that aired 30 minutes after the debate. But honestly we need a republican to try and defend bush......Buc?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Well I am glad to see that we are all varying degrees of Liberal, or at least anti-Bush. I hope you guys caught the Daily Show that aired 30 minutes after the debate. But honestly we need a republican to try and defend bush......Buc?

Dude, Bucc is anything but a Republican.  He is a Libertarian.  I am one of the few Republicans on these forums.[/size]

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

You know.. after warching the debate.. I feel it was a tie... Bush might have said uhh alot... but thats also b/c he is not a great public speaker.... Both makes statments that were wel thought through. I hope to be able to see something better in the next debate that would sway my view of both these men (b/c as of right now.. I will be voting for  myself as a write in vote b/c i dont feel like one guys will be better then the other)

[BTs_GhostSniper]

You know.. after warching the debate.. I feel it was a tie... Bush might have said uhh alot... but thats also b/c he is not a great public speaker.... Both makes statments that were wel thought through. I hope to be able to see something better in the next debate that would sway my view of both these men (b/c as of right now.. I will be voting for  myself as a write in vote b/c i dont feel like one guys will be better then the other)

Most of the people I have talked to think it was a tie also (and I live in an area that is 85% Conservative).  In fact, I can't think of a single person out of the 200 people I work with that is a liberal.  Man I'm happy where I work!  lol

[crypt]

Nah GS, you are just happy you don't have to hurt them when they say something you don't agree with.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Nah GS, you are just happy you don't have to hurt them when they say something you don't agree with.

Look, I could sit down with Bondo (Bucc), Typhy, Sixhits, Voodoo, and BFG right now and have a very civilized dicsussion about political topics that I disagree with them on.  I would not get violent in any way.  I do respect people's opinions, contrary to popular belief.  I am free to voice my disagreement with those opinions, however.  There are very few things that you could do in my precense to get me mad enough to kick your ass over.

["Sixhits"]

You know.. after warching the debate.. I feel it was a tie... Bush might have said uhh alot... but thats also b/c he is not a great public speaker.... Both makes statments that were wel thought through. I hope to be able to see something better in the next debate that would sway my view of both these men (b/c as of right now.. I will be voting for  myself as a write in vote b/c i dont feel like one guys will be better then the other)

Most of the people I have talked to think it was a tie also (and I live in an area that is 85% Conservative).  In fact, I can't think of a single person out of the 200 people I work with that is a liberal.  Man I'm happy where I work!  lol

Any honest person wouldn't call that a tie. It was a distrubingly easy win for Kerry -- Bush didn't even fight back.  He struggled the whole night to but a conherent sentance together.  That's not being a man of the people who talks plainly, that's being unable to TALK.  It was the most frightening thing I've seen of this president -- his inablity to express himself, and his clear inablity to to deal with having to listen to someone else speak.  It was a shock.

Bush wasn't just defeated, he was shamed.  Kerry was everything we want in a President. Bush wasn't even able to string a sentance together, let alone score points on his PRIMARY ISSUE OF FORIEGN POLICY AND NATIONAL DEFENCE. If you can't win on your own ground, you just can't win, Mr. Bush.

[Cossack]

Dubya could have atleast gave us some statistics. For the most part he put forth unsupported statements, assuming we will take his word for it. He didnt even put forth fake statistics.

[crypt]

Stop giving biased opinions Six. If you are gonna knock on Bush, at least give detailed info.

[*DAMN Bondo]

From the perspective of style, skill, and influence on the voting public, Kerry won without a doubt. It just cannot be argued any other way because it is a fairly objective matter.

Issues, though they are more important than the aforementioned elements, are going to be decided based on previously determined ideologies. Naturally someone who agree's with Bush's ideology will find Bush's stance preferable, but that doesn't mean Bush won. However, with those who were not ideologically attached to either candidate, whether they agree on the issues will have a good bit to do with the more objective elements so even on issues, Kerry probably won by shifting the moderate voters more in his direction.

[Cossack]

Stop giving biased opinions Six. If you are gonna knock on Bush, at least give detailed info.

If it is an opinion isnt it defacto biased?

["Sixhits"]

Stop giving biased opinions Six. If you are gonna knock on Bush, at least give detailed info.

Please apply this same opinion equally, to both sides.  How often have I posted facts and details? Very often.

If you watched the debate you saw a President who could not defend himself or his policies. Instead of giving us facts or details -- nah, he gave us rhetoric and misstatements.

Whatever you think of how he's run the country, the fact remians he dropped the ball during the debates and made himself look foolish on the very issues he's supposed to be the best on. Kerry had a far better grasp of what is going on in Iraq, in North Korea, and in Iran. He slamed the President on his repeated mistakes in those areas (if you really[/i[ want me to get transcriptions of his comments and Bush's in regards to this I will). And Bush refused to acknowledge his mistakes. As Kerry said, you can be certain, but you can also be wrong.

Bush had statements. Kerry had facts.  Bush had high concept responses to policy questions. One example -- When he was asked about the deaths in Iraq this was his reponse:

"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work. You know my hardest, the hardest part of the job is to know that I committed the troops in harm's way and then do the best I can to provide comfort for the loves ones who lost a son or a daughter or husband and wife."

I see.  Details, right?  Policy? No.  Just statements that have no meaning, only emotion. Bullshit instead of reality. It's hard, is it? Maybe you could tell us how you'll do better, instead of complaining about how tough the shitstorm you created is.

and

"And, you know, I think about Missy Johnson, fantastic young lady I met in Charlotte, N.C., she and her son, Brian. They came to see me. Her husband, P.J., got killed-been in Afghanistan, went to Iraq. You know, it's hard work to try to love her as best as I can knowing full well that the decision I made caused her, her loved one to be in harm's way."

Huh? What the fuck did he just say?

Why don't you want the President to give details on how best to love the wife of a dead man?

This is our President. He can barely speak on one of the most important moments of his life. He barely draw thoughts together, or speak coherently. And details? Policy? None. Just more of the same bullshit.

Big Talk is no excuse for failure.


Please dude, why do you need me to give you details that are staring you in the face?

[crypt]

All these links and stuff come from all these liberal sites. Maybe if it was reliable.

Anyways, Kerry had so many different positions on every matter my head was spinning. He said something like "Saddam wasn't a threat but when we captured him he was." Shit like that is all that pisses me off. You are acting like Kerry is god and he makes no mistakes. They are there you just simply don't look for them.

[*DAMN Bondo]

Crypt, what Kerry said was: "I've had one position, one consistent position, that Saddam Hussein was a threat. There was a right way to disarm him and a wrong way. And the president chose the wrong way."

And just because a liberal says it doesn't mean it is not true. You can't say something isn't reliable simply because it is from a "liberal site." You can feel you need to double check a point by looking for other sources, but you can't just dismiss it.