Are you a Draft doger?

[BFG]

Loth hit it spot on but something u said rebel....

If u handed me a gun right now, and told me to kill 3 iraquis infront of me, id do it in heart beat

There is a 14 year old boy, his mother and father standing infront of you. they are Iraqi's (i assume you were reffering to iraq) they are part of the crowd that has gathered around the wreckage of a humvee that has been destroyed by a roadside bomb. Your Sergeant or equivlent is freaking crazy and has orderd you to open fire on the crowd...

I hope you never ever join the military for the sake of yourself and the US army and the poor bastards that have to face gung ho kids rushing off to fight a war on terrorism without thinking about it. It only makes the jobs of the soldiers who have their heads screwed on and their minds and hearts in the right places, jobs so much harder.

Perhaps it takes an American to realize the true meaning of Patriotism. Maybe I am wrong, though.

Maybe you are. I think the true meaning of Patriotism was shown by people like the French resistance who put their lives the lives of their family and friends on the wire to fight for their country against the Germans. That is Patriotism, not some kid saying he'd go shoot Iraqi civilians if some idiot told him to.

There is a difference between WWII and Bush's "war against terrorism"

[BTs_GhostSniper]

If u handed me a gun right now, and told me to kill 3 iraquis infront of me, id do it in heart beat

There is a 14 year old boy, his mother and father standing infront of you. they are Iraqi's (i assume you were reffering to iraq) they are part of the crowd that has gathered around the wreckage of a humvee that has been destroyed by a roadside bomb. Your Sergeant or equivlent is freaking crazy and has orderd you to open fire on the crowd...

That is total BS.  That shit happens in the movies, and although in some EXTREMELY rare cases it has happened in the past, it is by far not the norm for the U.S. Military.  In those rare cases where civilians were killed, it was almost always by accident, not by some rogue militants issuing illegal orders as you have described here.  BFG, you have never served in the military; do not make the mistake of tarnishing the honor of the military I served in for your stupid political arguments.

[BFG]

It wasn't ment to be a realistic situation GS - Christ im only too well aware its not like the Hollywood movies - that wasn't the point i was tryiing to make. It was Rebel basically saying that he would quite happily shoot iraqi's if someone told him to.

Individual US soldiers have managed to tarnish it themselves without any help from anyone else.

Ps... Why did that helicopter fire a missile into a crowd of demintrators the other week? bet that wasn't covered much by the  media... Perhaps you haven't seen the footage of the camermans footage filming a reporter - seeing the explosion that kills him right their in front of the camera?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Individual US soldiers have managed to tarnish it themselves without any help from anyone else.

Sure, individuals have always brought dishonor upon themselves....but don't make it sound like it is common practice for the U.S. Military....because it isn't.

Ps... Why did that helicopter fire a missile into a crowd of demintrators the other week? bet that wasn't covered much by the  media... Perhaps you haven't seen the footage of the camermans footage filming a reporter - seeing the explosion that kills him right their in front of the camera?

Yes, it was covered by our media here....you forget that the U.S. Media is every bit as liberal and twisted as your own media.  And who knows why that helicopter fired into the crowd...could have been a miscalculation, an accident, or just plain stupidity on his part....doesn't mean some higher up ordered him to do it.  And besides that WE do NOT know the whole story....you only get the part of the story that the media lets you get.  Which in most cases is a gross distortion of the facts.

[crypt]

Maybe you are. I think the true meaning of Patriotism was shown by people like the French resistance who put their lives the lives of their family and friends on the wire to fight for their country against the Germans. That is Patriotism, not some kid saying he'd go shoot Iraqi civilians if some idiot told him to.

There is a difference between WWII and Bush's "war against terrorism"

What about the 2000+ Americans and other troops that saved their ass?

All I was trying to say is that if my country were to ask me and go out there and defend it, I would, as would most other young americans.

[Mr. Lothario]

     If there were something to defend against, I would gladly go.

[BFG]

Yes Crypt i totally agree, all those americans, and the Canadians, and every other man and woman who put their lives on the line as they did.

if my country were to ask me and go out there and defend it, I would, as would most other young americans.

To go out there, somewhere else to defend your country? OK i get your point but if we're refering to iraq then its not a case of defending your country as Bush would have you belive, why, because iraq had nothing to do with september 11th or Al-Quieda or Osama or any of it. Invading iraq had nothing to do with Defending America the closest you could get to that statment was that Invading iraq had somthing to do with Defending Americas oil interests... thats about it.

Yes, it was covered by our media here....you forget that the U.S. Media is every bit as liberal and twisted as your own media

Not that you'd agree but id probably say thats not the case - we have people like the BBC who are widely regarded as being one of the best and most professional news networks in the world. We have our shit as well thanks to Rupport Murdoch but dosn't everyone. but it still begs the question.. its not the first time somthing like this has happend and most likely not the last

[The Golden Shark]

i have some unconfirmed reports from some people on the inside that they might anounce the draft in spring 04. i have no links, nothing in writing. Take it or leave it.

I guess no one noticed that he put

might anounce the draft in spring 04

if thats the case.. then it was a lie.. b/c the spring of 04 was a few months back.. if i remeber corectly.. unless time is going backwards

obviously, this post has weeded out the ingnorant of common sense from the intellegent people who can figure out a typo, and make the appropriate mental corrections before posting.

your 2 posts added together make you look like an ass.

For THOSE of you who can't seem to get a grasp on what i was saying. i ment '05

[jn.loudnotes]

The difference between Loth's totally tenable position and that of those who would willingly waste their lives in any situation is one of independent thought.

If, like Loth, you are so confident in your own reason and judgment that you prefer it to that of your elected leaders, you cannot absolutely say that you would go in any draft.  There's an issue of trust and faith in the president and congress that comes up.

Since when did patriotism in and of itself become such a positive thing?  It is frighteningly close to nationalism - and that sort of blind demagoguery has led to huge tragedy in the past.  While I applaud a willingness to serve the nation - it is foolhardy to suggest that it is honorable to follow orders under all circumstances.  Sometimes the greatest love of country is to know when to say "no."

To GS - While I commend your military service, answer me this.  How do you rationalize killing another human being after being ordered to do so?  Do you always know why you are killing "the enemy"?  Is it possible that the instruction to kill from your superior officer is unjustified?  Ultimately, do you trust him, his superiors, and your government above your own understanding?

If the answer is yes, why?

[BFG]

To GS - While I commend your military service, answer me this.? How do you rationalize killing another human being after being ordered to do so?? Do you always know why you are killing "the enemy"?? Is it possible that the instruction to kill from your superior officer is unjustified?? Ultimately, do you trust him, his superiors, and your government above your own understanding?

If the answer is yes, why?

... Becasue he is a Patriot?

[KoS.Rebel]

BFG, why dont we put this into a new perspective really quick. Lets say that we were invaded by some country, for example Russia. Now, if a russian tank was goin down ur street and got blown up by mines placed by people that lived by you, and you ran outside with the rest of them and celebrated, dont you think that a russian heli is justified by shooting a missile at you? if you dont recall, in that instance you speak of, those people that swarmed the blown up ATV were waving terrorist regime flags. I do believe that Iraq is now overdue and that troops should be withdrawn in steps, but we cannot become an isolationist country again, that hurts us as a whole. I feel there is a better way to go about rooting out terrorism, but just leavin guys in the country to protect it isnt right. But what i do know is that Kerry's plans, although EXTREMELY vague (visit the John Kerry website and read about his "plans"), call for the withdrawal of troops and from what it sounds like, the beginning of isolationism. We tried it once pre ww2 and it didnt work out. What people on the forums dont realize is you CANNOT change a persons views, everyone has their own and they will not change. I dont want to change your views im just justifying mine.

[Cossack]

If the enemy is shooting at you and he is confirmed OPFOR, you shoot at him. If the officer tells you to do so, then you better fucking shoot at him because you will get in deep shit for disobeying an order.

If you are ordered to kill a bunch of innocents. If you have an officer like Lt Calley (Mai Lai massacre) then it is your duty as a human being to disobey him. Tell your superiors if he gives you any shit. Then again, things arent always black and white out there.

Edit: Posted after Rebel's post. No Rebel, it is not justified to kill unarmed civilians, even if they are celebrating the destruction or death of one of your men. That is clearly against the Geneva Convention.

[BFG]

Justified in shooting a missile at civilians? no i can't say i do. And i didn't know anyting about a "terrorist regime flag" unless you mean they were flying the Iraqi flag? it wasn't a terrorist regime though. And u can't justify shooting missiles at a crowd becasue they were waving flags that you don't like.

I feel there is a better way to go about rooting out terrorism, but just leavin guys in the country to protect it isnt right.

I agree. Although i think this all went wrong when the invasion was rushed - there seems to have been no plan or strategy to sort the country out afterwards... its like everyone said before - if you go in and remove the power then you have to stay there and create a new power as if you move out you leave a power vacume and you open Iraq to anyone... .and that is what has happend. A power vacume has been created and is being filled by islamic insurgents..

[BTs_GhostSniper]

To GS - While I commend your military service, answer me this.  How do you rationalize killing another human being after being ordered to do so?  Do you always know why you are killing "the enemy"?  Is it possible that the instruction to kill from your superior officer is unjustified?  Ultimately, do you trust him, his superiors, and your government above your own understanding?

If the answer is yes, why?

In war, you kill the enemy.  You kill the enemy when he fires upon you.  You kill the enemy when your superiors tell you to.  No, you don't always know WHY you are killing the enemy....although these days it is rare that you wouldn't know.  But yes, you must trust your superiors and follow their orders (unless the order is grossly illegal...another rare situation).  I personally have been in this situation, and when it comes to killing another person, I am able to do so without hesitation....even though it isn't something I like to do....you must defend yourself and your men.  To not kill in that situation would be unthinkable.  These days the U.S. Military gives the enemy combatants plenty of time to surrender....we even go to the extent of dropping thousands of leaflets from airplanes telling them we are coming and they better throw down their weapons and run or surrender.  If they are still there after all that, then they want to fight.[/size]

[spike]

GS the leaflets aint nothing new. They happened in WWII, they happened in WWI, and I'm sure there has been some form of leaflets for hundreds of years.

[jn.loudnotes]

In war, you kill the enemy.? You kill the enemy when he fires upon you.? You kill the enemy when your superiors tell you to.? No, you don't always know WHY you are killing the enemy....although these days it is rare that you wouldn't know.? But yes, you must trust your superiors and follow their orders (unless the order is grossly illegal...another rare situation).? I personally have been in this situation, and when it comes to killing another person, I am able to do so without hesitation....even though it isn't something I like to do....you must defend yourself and your men.

Hypothethically -

Imagine you are in a situation where your own observation and experience dictates that for whatever reason you should not kill as instructed.  I can think of several that would violate my own personal principles without being "grossly illegal."  Let's say for example that you and your comrades are not in any danger at the time, but you have the opportunity to kill a potential enemy.  If your conscience dictates that you should not murder the person, but you are ordered to do so by superiors - by the president even - would you do it?

Aren't you again basing your definition of the enemy on faith in your superiors?  What if - and maybe this would never cross your mind, but it certainly would the minds of many equally patriotic draftees - what if the enemy is not really deserving of death, what if their cause is just - what if they have reason to fight.  Can the U.S. government be wrong, when they have committed to war?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

GS the leaflets aint nothing new. They happened in WWII, they happened in WWI, and I'm sure there has been some form of leaflets for hundreds of years.

The way we drop them today is TOTALLY new.  We drop them by the millions....if you don't see one of these, you are just blind.  Back in the old days, we tried to drop enough for everyone to see them, but it just never happened in the quantities we could manage.  Today we spend millions of dollars on trying to get the enemy to give up and surrender, or to simply run away.  I have a stack of the ones my father dropped on Iraqi positions during the first Gulf War.[/size]

[jn.loudnotes]

So what?  Is it possible that the soldiers believe their cause is worth fighting for?  After all, we are invading their country - just because they ignore leaflets in an attempt to defend themselves doesn't mean they deserve to die.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

So what?  Is it possible that the soldiers believe their cause is worth fighting for?  After all, we are invading their country - just because they ignore leaflets in an attempt to defend themselves doesn't mean they deserve to die.

OMG...are you really John Kerry in disguise???[/size]

[jn.loudnotes]

Yes GhostSniper, I am actually John Kerry.  Since I've taken so much time and energy to debate with you, will you please vote for me out of respect?  Thank you.

Now that you've called me out, please explain to me what you find so objectionable about my refusal to countenance needless death, and questioning of those who cause it willingly.