For those Involved in the School Siege in Russia

[BFG]

Throughout the day i have been watching in growing horror the unfolding horrific events of the Siege of a school in russia. Hundreds of Adults have been killed, shot while trying to escape, caught up in explosions when terrorists detinated bombs strapped to themselves, or by the booby trapped building they were being held in. I cannot describe the images of burnt corpses of tiny children scattered in the rubble.

There are no words to describe what has happend.

[spike]

News links(or turn on your tv):

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/03/international/europe/03CND-RUSS.html?hp

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/03/russia.school/index.html

[seth]

yeah, its a pity when children gets involved. Those independance wars are from another age, price of freedom is always heavy...

[Cossack]

Maybe I am being very reactionist, but incase you have not heard, Chechen terrorist under the command of *spits on ground* Samil Basayev have taken hostage 1000 hostages in a school. This included for the most part children. The satanists threatened to execute 20 children for every one insurgent killed by the Russian Federal Forces including the Interior Ministry, Special Police, and OMON.

Here, do not take my word for it, just read anything in the NY times or here in the Moscow Times. http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2004/09/03/300.html As a Russian soldier said, "Can we just shoot the dogs?"

[Supernatural Pie]

"Can we just shoot the dogs?"

I would be the last person to object.

[seth]

terrorists deserves to die.

I dont see any reasons to kill all the Chechens though, since i'm sure all arent terrorists: they're looking for independance apparently. They want freedom from the Russians, like anybody else.

[*DAMN Bondo]

I thought Chechens were Muslims, not Satanists. But I'm all for Russia taking out terrorists.

However I do have to ask the question. Russia is fairly aggressive in dealing with Chechen terror as it is...and it isn't diminishing the terror. Israel is aggressive with Palestinians, yet it isn't diminishing terror. The US has been fairly aggressive with terrorists in Afghanistan and more so Iraq, and terrorism has increased. Maybe the aggressive approach isn't working.

I think a "sensitive" approach is needed with more small special forces groups who can enact very focused strikes. The problem with the aggressive approaches has been that they are so broad (though not quite kill all Chechens, or as my dad suggests nuking a town in Iraq to "show them") that they invariably kill many innocents and increase resistance to those who attack. Instead of having locals be upset with the terrorists, they are convinced to be upset with the other force.

[seth]

I thought Chechens were Muslims, not Satanists. But I'm all for Russia taking out terrorists.

However I do have to ask the question. Russia is fairly aggressive in dealing with Chechen terror as it is...and it isn't diminishing the terror. Israel is aggressive with Palestinians, yet it isn't diminishing terror. The US has been fairly aggressive with terrorists in Afghanistan and more so Iraq, and terrorism has increased. Maybe the aggressive approach isn't working.

I think a "sensitive" approach is needed with more small special forces groups who can enact very focused strikes. The problem with the aggressive approaches has been that they are so broad (though not quite kill all Chechens, or as my dad suggests nuking a town in Iraq to "show them") that they invariably kill many innocents and increase resistance to those who attack. Instead of having locals be upset with the terrorists, they are convinced to be upset with the other force.

we all remember how Russia handeld the previous hostage crisis, when they gased the place killing terrosists AND most of the hostages...

[BFG]

Oh Jesus, Well first up bobby this is a lot worse than last time, hundreds and hundreds are dead, and if the death toll is anything lower than 500 or more i will be astonished.

Russians said they didn't want to go in an assault and were going to sit back and try and talk to the hostage takers (given what happend last time)

Yesterday morning somehitng happend - whether it was an accidental explosion or somthing wasn't clear but a group of children tried to escape - the hostage takers shot at their legs as they tried to run - then a large explosion as one woman apprently detonated the explosives packed around her, and other tripped accidently fell and exploded. - All hell broke loose. Civilians outside started shooting and the russian military and sf decided  they had no choice they had to go in then or never - they rushed in.
Mines had been placed around the gym, and bombs attached from the roof of the gym - when these went of they blew out one wall of the gym and the roof came down - god knows how many children in there were crushed and burnt alive, you cannot comprehend the image of...

The russians seemed totally unprepared, they failed to even corden of the school - there was no plan on what they would do if they had to go in, and i fear many many childrens lives were lost in the ensuding chaos.

As they moved into the school and were beginning the 'rescue' process fighting was still goign on in surrounding buildings - for a moment a ITN (UK news) Cameraman actually caught to of the hostage takers - masked and in full black combat gear, upstairs in a room - shooting down at the chaotic russian troops.

we all remember how Russia handeld the previous hostage crisis, when they gased the place killing terrosists AND most of the hostages...

If i remember rightly it wasn't exactly the gas that killed them - the Russian Elite forces stormed in after the gas had been pumped in and shot the suicide bombers and hostage takers at point blank range - the huge death toll was becasue they failed to get the hostages out of the gas filled theater and in many cases they sufforcated and died outside because of the lack of medical attention etc. Truely horrific.

[qutoe]However I do have to ask the question. Russia is fairly aggressive in dealing with Chechen terror as it is...and it isn't diminishing the terror. Israel is aggressive with Palestinians, yet it isn't diminishing terror. The US has been fairly aggressive with terrorists in Afghanistan and more so Iraq, and terrorism has increased. Maybe the aggressive approach isn't working.

Can' tell you how happy i was to see someone write that here bondo I think it just about sums up events, Israel and Palestine, and the core reason why George bush is one of the greatest Threats to world peace around. These tatics do not work, they simply strenghten the beliefs of the people who carry out these atrocities.

To blame the chechens for this is not fair, this was a group of extreamists, mostly forign it appears, of the 20 killed apparently 9 were of arab decent and 1 of african decent.

[KoS.Rebel]

We all hate terrorism, but when one man steps up to fight terrorism....he is smashed down by the public and media. You guys know who im talking about, you know you bash him all the time, and maybe now you want to hunt down terrorism too.

[BTs_FahQ2]

I have to agree with Rebel on this one.  Some people in this thread are the same ones who jumped on us for reactionary force to other acts.  This is quite humorous.

I say mount up Russia and get ready to defend and respond.  Nobody should tolerate terrorism, and nobody should tolerate the killing of defenseless children.

Just plain sad.

[*DAMN Bondo]

We all hate terrorism, but when one man steps up to fight terrorism....he is smashed down by the public and media. You guys know who im talking about, you know you bash him all the time, and maybe now you want to hunt down terrorism too.

There is more than one way to battle terrorism or hunt it down as you say, the right way and the wrong way. Bush has choosen the wrong way and as a result is making the problem worse. I suggested a better way that in no way involves appeasement or tolerating terror...it just demands precision.

[Cossack]

By satanists I meant the people who took the school, not the Chechen people. Nowadays the Chechens are more so on the side of Russians. The rebels come from the Arab world and some diseffected gangs of Chechens. You'll notice this was not purely Chechen either. We had ethnic Russians, Ossetians, and an Ingush among the satanists.

[seth]

Yesterday morning somehitng happend - whether it was an accidental explosion or somthing wasn't clear but a group of children tried to escape -

apparently, Russians special forces planed an assault and thats what they did (its in french newspaper Le Monde, today's edition). The russian gouvernment strongly denies he had any of this plans. The children "trying to escape" is bogus...
 

[BFG]

We all hate terrorism, but when one man steps up to fight terrorism....he is smashed down by the public and media. You guys know who im talking about, you know you bash him all the time, and maybe now you want to hunt down terrorism too.

Well u can't mean bush. Only thing he has successfully "stood up against" is any attempts to curb the speed which the world is being poluted.
Has the israelis and their "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" approach worked? No. Is Afganistan a safe and "terrorist" free nation? No. Is Iraq a safe and "terrorist free" country? No. Has bush done anything that has made the world a safer place? No.

Bondo sums it up perfectly, There is more than one way to battle terrorism, the right way and the wrong way. Bush and co are doing nothing more than making the problem worse. Its not about tollerating terrorism. Extreamism only breeds more extreamism. Nobodies saying Russia should be lying down and letting terrorist attacks go unnoticed - but they are making the problem themselves by the treatment of the Chechens, by oppressing them and treating them so badly they are only creating somthing for people to gather up against and fight against - and a way of islamic fundamentalists to find a foot hold...

U don't fight fire with more fire, or the result will be even bigger hotter flames. Instead you pour water on the base of the flames.  

[KoS.Rebel]

Sure Bush has done it wrong in ways, but Kerry himself has said he plans to remove troops from the mid east....which means that you guys are against terrorism but voting for a man who is going to crawl away from it and let it thrive....strange.

[cO.gabe]

However I do have to ask the question. Russia is fairly aggressive in dealing with Chechen terror as it is...and it isn't diminishing the terror. Israel is aggressive with Palestinians, yet it isn't diminishing terror. The US has been fairly aggressive with terrorists in Afghanistan and more so Iraq, and terrorism has increased. Maybe the aggressive approach isn't working.

First of all, how the fuck do you know that the agressive approach isn't diminishing terror?  Do any of us really know that?  

Israeli agressivness with the Palistinians very well could be diminshing terror - they foil a large percentage of planned attacks by suicide bombers.  How do we know it is not the same for the Russians, or even Bush?

Doing nothing is going to make the situation MUCH worse.

[seth]

i'm pretty sure killing innocents and childrens while fighting terrorism has a tremendous impact on the civilian population. One of the effect being that people start thinking that if they get killed by both sides, there isnt much of a difference between those 2 sides.

[BFG]

First of all, how the fuck do you know that the agressive approach isn't diminishing terror?? Do any of us really know that??

Israeli agressivness with the Palistinians very well could be diminshing terror - they foil a large percentage of planned attacks by suicide bombers.? How do we know it is not the same for the Russians, or even Bush?

So your suggesting the agressive approach is diminishing terrorism? Ahh, perhaps you can explain to me why soldiers and civilians are being killed in iraq every day by islamic insurgents and iraqi resistance to the Invasion by US and British troops?
So the Russian persecution of Chechens has helped prevent Terrorist attacks? Did you notice the school siege?
Some argue the iligal wall dividing Israel and Palestine (well israel and some of illigally occupied palestine) is stopping terrorist attacks. Yes people say that it has reduced the number of sucessfull attacks, has it removed the problem though? NO, its simply trying to hide from the issues and at the same time making them far far far worse.

Doing nothing is going to make the situation MUCH worse

Ok i know that some people have a very simplistic idea of politics etc but isn't that going a bit to far? Who said anything about doing nothing? There aren't to options 1. dont do anything 2. invade with guns blazing or equvilent. thats just stupid - thats what the bush administration wants you to believe, that he did the only thing possible, the fact that they havn't got enough brain cells to consider the alternatives is just a great shame

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

Well from what I have read and seen.. The russian did go in with guns blazing on there own... THe russians were in the middle of a seasfire that they had negosiated with the terrorist so that the russians could pick up the dead and wounded around the outside of the school. Then while the russians were getting the wounde.. the terrorist opened fire or set off a bomb.. and the russians reacted to that so though they terrorist were attacking them.