Finished DAMN BL mappack #3

[*DAMN Mauti]

Isn't what you say a little bit  contrary Sab? On one hand you tell me that we should still ask Aspyr(did you already send an email to them?), on the other hand you write right below that we can use them due IGOR.

IGOR creates mission files for maps you already have. So your argument isn't valid.

However the cease and desist order came from Ubisoft not Aspyr back in the days and to play with a private conversion of Island Thunder ISN'T ILLEGAL. -> Ubisoft agreed that the patch is fine and that you can use it -> make your own conversion is legal they problem was that I offered to do the conversion for guys that don't have VPC if they can proof that they purchased a PC version, that was violating their copyright and distributing rights.

Well the point is that we want more GhR like(wider) and as glitchfree as possible maps for the last and final *DBL Map pack. The IT maps are cool and if you can get an OK from Aspyr I'm fine with it, although I think most guys already have an IT version on their own so it may would take away space for other cool 3rd party maps. You should consider that.

So if you take care care about the thing with Aspyr and then we get some other maps(instead readding the maps from *DBL 1.5) into the map pack, we can create a public beta.

Greetings,

Mauti

[Saberian 3000]

Mauti,

Well, first off the only reason I am awaiting Aspyr's response over this is to get both sides of the story, and since they come to my work once a week (usually) to beta test games for the Mac it shouldnt be too hard to get a reply from them at that time.  The main problem I got from the reply from UBIsoft is that it was not specific enough for you to feel better about using the modded maps for the game.  Yes, it is true that IGOR is mainly used to mod .mission files as well as the .gun files but in this case you also need a template to use to do that modding.  And where do they get the textures to mod the game?  Right from the map folders of the files.  Without the map folders you cannot create a modded map of anything.  Therefore IGOR would be completely worthless in that aspect without the texture files to create the mod.  

As for Aspyr, the ONLY reason that I am getting them into this mix is because I didnt get a clear enough answer from UBI to where it was to my satisfaction, and therefore am trying to get a reply out of Aspyr about this issue.  The thing is many of the mods that were created for Ghost recon use the maps and textures right out of the maps and textures folders which again are what is modded in IGOR, but then again, they are still distributing those mods with copies of the actual map script to play the game.  Is that illigal, I think not.

As for IGOR and using the files you already have, well I have the gold edition of the game and therefore comes with IGOR for IT so what I am saying is valid Mauti in this case.  I am only providing what is needed to play the mods in their entirety.  If MNac users just so happen to use the mod on their machine that is up to them, but as of now I am not breaking any copyright laws by allowing people to download the compilation of maps that I have here.

Ghost Recon was designed so that people can make mods and whatnot to be played.  Weather you have IT or not, using the .rsb files or the .qob files from other parts of the game is not illigal.  Hell, in many of the maps that you have on your website they have actual .qob, .rsb, .gun, .mis files that were taken right out of IT to play the game correctly.  All I have done in this case is slightly modify the maps from IT to be played better for Warzone gaming.  By doing so I have created a new map style based off of the old one.  Just like what was done with many of the other mods out there, including many of the mods that you have on your download site.  Nothing in this mappack that I have created allows you to play the game in it's entirety without the full version of the game.

The thing I dont think you get here is the fact that when you attempted to distribute the game itself, that is exactly what you did,  attempt to distribute the whole game in it's entirety and not just a few maps to be used for CBing.  You let people download the whole storyline, game and all.  That was the problem.  In this case here,  it is nothing more then using a few of the maps, modified with Igor of course, to make it more suitable for use in CBing.  The TG maps themselves cant even be played right without some of the IT textures out of the map file so to play it correctly we needed to take some of the textures from IT to play it right for what we have.  That dosent mean that by creating the mappack to play the game that I am breaking copywright law.  What that means is that I am taking some of the textures out of one of their games to allow us to play the mod correctly..  The mod itself wasnt made from an IT map, but IT (Island Thunder) textures and .qob files were used in the making of the mod.  So the big issue is that by taking some of these textures that are layed out in the map of the mod dosent mean that it is copywright infringement to use them.  Copyright infringement is only applied if the people that created something that would possibly take sales away from the game that they have on the market.  Or also when someone is trying to thwart the sales of this game.  In this case neither of those is applied.  As a matter of fact it will generate more sales for people that have PC and Mac computers because more Mac gamers will want to purchase the IT game to play the full version of it on their PC because as of now the only way to play the storyline of IT is on the PC and not the Mac, and for that there is no way that someone can play IT by downloading the mod with some of the maps from IT on it, therefore eliminating the issue with copyright.

That is why you had recieved the cease and decist letter as well was because PC guys could easily get the game from you in it's entirety and play it on their PC or Mac, therefore cutting their sales of the product down.  

Now telling people to use illigal copies of the whole game to play CB's if you have them is by far illigal.  That is basically almost telling people that it is ok to use illigal copies of a copywrited game in it's entirety and by just doing that you can get fined because you are saying that *DAMN is supporting such acts.   So I am not sure that you quite understood what the "ceast and decist" order was for in this case because creating a mod or mappack to play the game isnt illigal, but distributing the game to where it could possilby thwart game sales or sales of the product in question is.  Or therefore promoting the use of an illigal copy on a public forum for CB's that are in a public league is.  That is why we cant just use the illigal copies to have CB's.  But using parts of the game, as long as we dont sell them or thwart sales from the manufacturer is legal in this sense.

But again, to make things easier on you because I can understand how scary a "ceast and decist" order can be in getting, that is why I am consulting with the game makers to get a definite answer for you in this case.  You shouldn't have to worry about small issues like this, but in this case it is nessisary because of the fact that *DAMN is already using many mods that contain textures and map layouts and 3D files that were taken right out of the IT game.  So I am mainly doing this for your assurance.  

Although I really wanted it to be used for *DAMN because that was my original intention for this mappack because the mappacks that are now in use are somewhat lacking.  I now have members from [01], BOC, :cO:, :MoD:, and Po) that are helping with the testing of these maps, and hopefully many more clans to come.  PC or Mac.  BTW it is now a standalone mod and not a replacement for mappack 1.5.

When I get more from the game manufacturers I will post it here an send you copies of the original script at your request.  

Saberian

[*DAMN Mauti]

Lol Sab,

I think we totally miss each other - because what you said in your first paragraphes of your last post what actually what I tried to explain you in my last post *shakinghead*.

Well I also want the backup from Aspyr, that's what I always wanted, your post about the answer from Ubi but sounded like they have already granted the use and also wrote that Aspyr doesn't have any say in this. So I was satisfied with this. Well to have also Aspyr's bless is great and I'm not against this is in anyway.

In the end I always wanted the same as you.

Getting full backup.

Adding some cool new maps.

Nothing to add.

Bye,

Mauti

[BFG]

one thing to add... when do the minions get to play these funky new maps?

[Saberian 3000]

Srry big guys hehe,

Thanks for the abrupt answer hehe.  I will relay info to you as soon as I get it for sure. thanks for the backup there.  We should be releasing another beta on it soon.


BFG, I can send you a copy of it tonight if you are online heh.  Otherwise you caan get it thru :cO:Twist or :MoD:Shade or anyone else that has it for that fact heh.

Saberian

[BFG]

I'll go have a winge at shade my bestest bud

[waterproof]

I only say this ones!!!!  

Do the mappacks and test them a hole seson.........  

One more thing!!   If we are using all maps from IT No one is going to play them.....It seems that almost every person i talked to On gameranger allready has It but thinks that it takes to mutch power from there computer......

This is not my case!!  I wanna play IT and i love it!!!!!



See ya all

[Saberian 3000]

Waterproof, and testers

Another issue that Waterproof brings up is the mappack being laggy.  Well to answer this, the problem is to be useful in a gaming league you cannot run 3 mappacks at once.  What has to be done in this case is  the mappacks have to again be redone and condensed if Mauti is going to insist on DAMN BL mappack #1 to be used.  There is roughly 55% more lagg running mappack #3 with DAMN BL mappack #1.5 then without mappack 1.5.  The reason is that it takes the application all that time to run the actual application with the mappacks as well.  That can create a lot of lag.  Therefore at this time if you run all 3 of the mappacks at once you will get lagg.  Even if you have your French T1 connection it will lagg for other players if you run mappack 1.5 with 3.0.5 at this time.  

We picked these maps from IT because they were the best of the crop that we found with the least amount of lagg to effect the game play, and that is why we put them in this mappack.  As well as the fact that we are not trying to take that game and make money off of it, nor steal money away from the manufacturers of the game.  All we want is to be able to use these certain maps for gaming in this league, and therefore everyone should be allowed to use these for our gaming league here in DAMN.

Please be careful at what you guys say online about Illigal copies of IT on this forum.  Lately I have been having UBI and ASpyr take a look at this forum to see how many people are actually using the illigal copy of IT.  They are aware that people have the mod but I suggest at this time you zip your mouths is you ever want to see IT being used in a Mac gaming league of any type.

Once this idea get's proposed I am going to bring up the suggestion that the maps be seperated from mappacks to determine weather or not they can be played in CQB's and regular TEAM CB'.  That would take quite a lot of the congestion out of the issue with the mappacks.  Of course I would never say get rid of them cause like Mauti said, too many people have those versions of the mappacks.  Problem is if we are going to introduce and new or better maps into the mappacks you almost have to eliminate the maps that are either not being used or not suitable.  And since mappack 1.5 was designed mainly for CQB's and TEAM that is going to be an issue with any mappack that you might add.  Therfore my idea was to have mappacks specifically for TEAM CB's and specifically for FFA's and CQB's.

Mappack 3.0.5 beta is a mappack that at this time will run circles FPS wise around IT if the only thing you had on was Origmiss, and Desert Siege.  The reason being is because it uses only a 3rd of the textues that the IT (Island Thunder) mod uses as well as way less then half the maps.  Therefore much more suited for gaming on a Mac.   Not only that but all these maps were hand picked from all that we have seen to be best for gameplay for TEAM CBing.  So mappack #3 is designed only for team cb's and not FFA or CQB.  I am sure that a mappack for FFA's and CQB's can be thought of by the king of CQB or RVS maps, monoman.  He seems to have an eye for those types of maps and I am sure he can put together an excellent compilation of CQB maps for Ghost recon.  Although I on the other hand with the help from Shade and all the other clans participating in the testing of this mappack are gearing this mappack to be strictly for TEAM CB's only.  That is what the public wants and that is what we intend on giving them.  

So within another week I should have a reply on this finally.  It has been a long road going back and forth with the manufacturers but at this time it seems that a very kewl guy from Aspyr is really helping me sort this out with them.  Aspyr does not plan on ever making IT a reality for the Macintosh so I do believe we might finally get what I have been pushing for.  The go ahead to use these maps that we specified for Ghost Recon Gaming for the Mac ONLY.

Will keep ya posted on the events here with the mappack and IT.  Thanks again guys for testing out the mappack thus far.  Modifications to the mappack will be posted soon for further testing to get rid of the glitches that we have found.

Thanks BFG for finding another fatal glitch in the TG map.  Almost all the maps we have chosen are fatal glitch free except for TG.  This map we are doing extensive testing with the try and eliminate the glitch issues with the 2nd floor on one part of it and the woodpile on the side of one of the houses.  We'll again keep ya posted on what is going on with the progress of that.

Saberian

[-V-]

(OT, maybe) Well, it seems another guy has posted some of the Island Thunder maps on his website.
http://www.remyg.com/p/RemyMods.html

[Saberian 3000]

Srry V,

I think I am missing this but where on this website is the IT maps that you were referring to?  I do see a lot of cool maps but as far as I can see I dont see IT maps.  None of the maps in the mappacks that I see here have IT maps on it.  although they do have some interesting maps which I will check out in the long run.  Thanks for the update on that but other then that these maps are not IT maps as far as I can see.

Saberian

[v142]

look at the Pack Is1 (the one on the top), that one contains 3 IT maps:
C04 Swamp Airfield
C06 Polling Center
CP03 Prison

-V-

[Saberian 3000]

Rgr that, it is true that many people have already put IT maps into mappacks, the main issue that Mauti has is that he wont get another one of those letters the mail from UBI, but I am glad that you brought that up because in this case it is true that others have already ported some of the IT maps and put them into mappacks.  Our issue here for all intensive purposes is the useage of these mappacks for DAMN BL.  And since Mauti has already had one runin with UBI in a nasty way that is why he is concerned that if he has these mappacks online for distribution, will he get the same thing.  My opinion is no but then again this at this time is ONLY an opinion.  The issue is that he would like some verification at this time that something like this can be legally done.  Therfore that is why I am going thru the extremes here at Aspyr getting approval to do such a thing.  He picked some nice maps there, not only IT ones but ones that have some nice addons in it, problem again is by using IT maps is it breaking copyright.  Just because one person issues maps does not mean that it is legal and I think that is Mauti's point here.  

Another issue with these mappacks is the fact that in this case it is 4 mappacks that this person offers.  Propblem with this issue is and always will be the issue of the lagg that is experienced any time more then 3 mappacks are installed.  at this time to run the maps that are currently being used you have to load up, Origmiss, Desert Siege, *DAMN BL Mappack #1, *DAMN BL Mappack #2, and well as the beta test of #3.  That is a serious amount of mods.  Therefore to fix this issue the thought of one condensed mappack with all the maps that are playable should be issued.  That is where we come in.  This mappack #3 is a nice addition but furthermore the big issue is trying to get all of those mappacks into one condensed version with less size and better gameplay.  That is what we are doing here.

Another issue is the IT maps that are used in these mappacks.  The reason that I did not use some of the maps that he used for his mappack is the gameplay that is seen on some of the maps that he has chosen.  We want TRUE CB Team style maps and if the playing field is not somewhat equal for the teams it serves up no purpose.  Airfield = good choice but we had to redo the spawn and make it smaller.  No point in being able to get the smoke 100ft away from the actual smoke spot.  Polling center = bad map for CB's.  We didnt want to have a map like that because of the serious useage of nades and whatnot.  Plus the fact that where you started determined a lot of the advantages in the map.  Not that it's a bad map.  Very fun to play but for competition it just didnt cut the muster.  Prison, well, this isnt a bad map persay but because of the glitches found within the map it was deemed unplayable from a BL standpoint and since we can only use a few of the maps we wanted the ones with the least amount of possible fatal glitches in them.  Trust me, it took Shade and myself a seriously long time to find maps that would work.

As for TG map, well, it's a great map but for the final version if I cannot completely correct the glitches that are within the map it will also be taken out of the final mappack for DAMN.  

RS Remake maps (Rogue Spear or Rainbow 6) = Well, again originally these maps were designed as close combat maps designed for play like RS or Rainbnow 6 or for that fact Raven shield, but5 are not maps that we want to deal with in Ghr Team games.  The map style for GHR is military style maps, not SWAT, therefore that is why we would not use these maps as well.  Now for a CQB mappack that is another story, but for GHR team play no thanks.

Battleborne maps = Nice, well made redone renderings of the Rogue Spear maps and they are nice and big.  Issue for CB style gameplay is that they are not optimized for spawns and whatnot within a Team style CB playing, therefore we cannot use them.  Yes they are made well, but the map layout is completely not appropriate for CB style gameplay.

Thank you for showing me this page though.  It gives us a lot more maps that we have not yet been able to experience and I think we will take a gander into some of them for possible replacement of the TG map.  I really do appreciate the feedback on this with the IT maps and whatnot.  All for the better when we make the final evaluation of the sitaution with using IT maps to Aspyr.  In any event we should be moving from that issue soon.  I am doing this the correct way in the sense that I am getting permission from the owners of the copyright to use these maps from IT.  Therefore no legal issues in the long run.  This Frenchmen that has made this site picks some good maps, problem is that he does not ask permission to use them from the game manufacturer.  In either event I am not entirely certain that what he is doing is illigal, but it's best to be sure if ya know what I mean

Anyway keep bringing me the good stuff like this.  The more, the better.

Saberian

[*DAMN Mauti]

Hey Sab,

your arguement about the # of mappacks running and slowing down could be elimated easily. Once we have the bless from Aspyr and tested all maps, I could create an installer that merges all mappacks into one big final *DBL map pack - so you have only to activate one mod again.

And about IT maps - without Asypr's bless I see it as a no go to add any maps into a *DBL map pack because what is Island Thunder - 8 new maps, weaps and missions. - Bye adding 4 of these maps we are already distributing half of the IT pack so I would only agree with it if Aspyr really gives their OK otherwise we have to add other maps, like a fixed SR Farm map, TG1, Mosque,...

Bye,

Mauti

[Saberian 3000]

NP,

that is what i am waiting for at the moment.  I so apologize with the delay with the response but it seems that they are hashing it out as we speak.  Now the reason why we cant just use the regular IT maps is again the fact that the ones that Shade and I have redone have been modded to work better with Warzone and since the others did not have good positions for the center spots we had to redo those as well as we had to redo the spawn spots on many of the maps because they are not specifically even in any close sense.  another issue with the adding of the maps to the mappack that having soo many mods is only part of the issue.  Another issue is the fact of having too many maps in one mappack.  Now it would be nice if that was the only issue with the lagg but that is only half of the problem.  The easier idea would be to split the maps from CQB and regular maps from being in the mappack.  That would free up a lot of the space that was being taken up by many of the maps there were not being used for GHR TEAM play in that sense.  I just wish that there was an easy solution to this issue but because of all of the maps that were put into the mappacks that are not played in GHR team play those added maps will do nothing but cause more undue lagg to the games.  But that is part of the solution by being able to incorporate the maps into one mappack but again, if the mappack is too big it will still somewhat have the same issue.  Especially with the slower comps.

Saberian