Cross-Platform Gameranger

[BTs_Mysterio]

Ross why defend something so lame. This is a threat to the entire community because now code is out for PC and anyone who cares can use it to make a completely working rewritten GR. It's fucked up and stupid. I don't want that, no one I know on Gr wants that. If you want to kill the community go make your own client that runs off it's own servers.

[Blufire]

If xoclipse played his cards right, he could easily replace GR, which, from what I've seen of his work, is what he wants to do.

[Ross K.]

It's interesting to note the similarity of this to something RealNetworks has done:
http://news.com.com/RealNetworks+breaks+Apple%27s+hold+on+iPod/2100-1027_3-5282063.html?tag=nefd.pop

Okay, coming from the perspective of a fellow coder such as myself, it is quite literally impossible that he could have built this from the ground up. You'd need to at least connect to GameRanger's servers to analyze the protocol, which in itself is effectively agreeing to the EULA. If that isn't, then using his client to connect to GR certainly is a huge signature of the EULA.

Also, it really doesn't matter what API he used to build the GUI. The fact is that it's IDENTICAL (no, not just similar). Check the screenshots.

First: I'm glad you're a programmer, I'd hate for this thread to be monopolized by non-coders who don't have a clue what they're talking about.
Second: I'd have to agree with you it's practically impossible that he could have built this without using a packet sniffer, analyzing the communications from the real client.
Third: What is the importance of the EULA anyways? What's the punishment for breaking it? Generally with agreements such as TOS's and AUP's, the punishment is merely not being able to receieve the services anymore. It seems the only thing Scott could really do is terminate service to Xoclipse. ALso, this new client does not have the EULA that Scott's does, and there is no EULA for the server software itself, so connecting to the server with this new client does not break any Agreements.

[Ross K.]

If xoclipse played his cards right, he could easily replace GR, which, from what I've seen of his work, is what he wants to do.

Xoclipse could only do this if he had a better product than Scott Kevill, and if he has a better product than Scott Kevill, then I don't think this is anything to worry about. However, this open source client isn't fully functional yet, and it still employs the use of the GR server, so I don't see a replacement service coming up very soon, making this issue moot.

Ross why defend something so lame. This is a threat to the entire community because now code is out for PC and anyone who cares can use it to make a completely working rewritten GR. It's fucked up and stupid. I don't want that, no one I know on GR wants that. If you want to kill the community go make your own client that runs off it's own servers.

Mysterio, I'm not supporting nor attacking Xoclipse's client. I'm just disputing legal issues that are at debate right now.

[Blufire]

I haven't read the EULA in a while, but I'm pretty sure it states that simply connecting to the GameRanger server is an agreement with the EULA. If it doesn't say that, Scott can just change the EULA without warning.

You make good points, though... the only thing Scott could do would be to ban xoclipse's client from joining gameranger.

And yes, I don't see this replacement service thing coming up any time soon, I'm just saying xoclipse could do it if he wanted to by making a free, more complete service. Since it's open source, he could gather up a team to do just that...

[Ross K.]

Anyone feel like uploading the EULA somewhere and posting a link to it? I have an iMac but I'm running Gentoo Linux on it, so I can't read the GR EULA.

Plus I'm still not sure what the consequences of violating the EULA would be.

[Mr.Mellow]

Also, the fact that it logs onto the GR server without Evill's consent is a violation enough. It could almost be considered hacking, wouldn't it? If I'm not mistaken.

[Toxic::Joka]

Awesome!! about time.. . ( Drunk, I hold the right to change my reply tomorrow)

[Ross K.]

Also, the fact that it logs onto the GR server without Evill's consent is a violation enough. It could almost be considered hacking, wouldn't it? If I'm not mistaken.

A lot of these issues only the courts could decide, because they're the ones who define the law, but some food for thought:

Perhaps it does have Evill's consent. The rationale for this is because Evill's server software authenticates it and gives it the go ahead to participate on the GR network.

It is indeed hacking. Xoclipse "hacked up" quite an impressive piece of software. The question is whether it's illegal or not. I haven't found any laws that are clearly broken (though a few that would take a court case to decide).

I think the outcome of Apple vs. RealNetworks will provide us with insight as to whether this is legal or not.

[JunkYardDog]

Also, the fact that it logs onto the GR server without Evill's consent is a violation enough. It could almost be considered hacking, wouldn't it? If I'm not mistaken.

A lot of these issues only the courts could decide, because they're the ones who define the law, but some food for thought:

Perhaps it does have Evill's consent. The rationale for this is because Evill's server software authenticates it and gives it the go ahead to participate on the GR network.

It is indeed hacking. Xoclipse "hacked up" quite an impressive piece of software. The question is whether it's illegal or not. I haven't found any laws that are clearly broken (though a few that would take a court case to decide).

I think the outcome of Apple vs. RealNetworks will provide us with insight as to whether this is legal or not.

HEY can any one tell me how to recover my damn password can't log in to change profile?
 

[:MoD: Xypher]

Im not really sure if this violates any laws whatsoever. If Evill were in the USA then of course it would be the DMCA but Evill is in Australia. That makes me wonder if even the trademark applies because its Trade Marked in Australia and not over here, dont take that one at face value i am not by any means a lawyer...

But anyway, maybe he is right, i mean an old Carbon application like GameRanger whose admins ban people while they are offline (me ) may have its day come pretty soon. I think much better can be done for the community, especially considering this app is the only choice we have.

Now that I am banned I guess I speak more freely, because I no longer fear a ban... I say this not because I am banned but because I am unhappy with the service... Guys, we can do better.

I guess my real question is if something better were to appear, would you use it? Not that this is, of course, I am as unhappy with windows users on our network, or moreover, your network, as you are... Think about it...

Xypher

[Mr.Mellow]

I'm very happy with GR's service. Extremely happy, and not just because I'm a freeloader, either. I've never had a problem with Evill or an admin or anything. As long as you play by the rules, it's all good. I don't want some crappy service that won't have the balls to ban people. I'm glad that there's some order on GR. We have some pretty weird, twisted, and homoerotic conversations on GR, and they don't ban us. Unless you're impersonating someone, breaking international law, or bashing the hell out of Evill, they leave you alone.

[spike]

Well why doesn't someone alert scott to it? He can take pertinent legal action, and stop this threat from killing our community.


(and before you yell at me for being a snitch, evill reads these forums, so it was your own dumb idea to post it here in the first place)

[bronto]

aww shucks, can you make a Win98 compatible version xo? i think it should only be allowed for ex-mac players who have gone pc. that's fair right? i still own a mac you know, it just sucks fat shlong.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Bronto, mac users that go to the PC side (henceforth known as the Dark Side) should be shot.  Repeatedly.  And that means you.

Anyhow, i think we need a real, honest to god lawyer to figure out what is and isnt illegal here, with xo being in the U.S. (or wherever, just not australia) and Evill being in Australia, its going to be a quagmire to figure out.  Wonder what'll happen...

[Blufire]

I don't think we need to worry about it. He's not trying to build an empire of loyal users quietly, nor build an entire service. It seems that this is just a proof-of-concept demonstration, not made with any malicious intentions in mind. Just chill for now...

[Daf One]

I find it funny that BluFire is supporting xoclipse.

[Ross K.]

Anyhow, i think we need a real, honest to god lawyer to figure out what is and isnt illegal here, with xo being in the U.S. (or wherever, just not australia) and Evill being in Australia, its going to be a quagmire to figure out.  Wonder what'll happen...

The thing is...I honestly dont even think a lawyer would know. The laws are not set on these issues yet, there aren't any real precedents. However, I don't see xoclipse's client doing Evill any harm, I mean it's not like Evill is losing money...all the premium features can be controlled by the server, so perhaps Evill could work with Xo to help Xo build this client so that the new users it can bring in will buy premium.

[spike]

New peecee users? Please god no, it theres anything that will doom GR as surely as a whole horde of 12 year old cs addicted hackers will, then...well, I can't figure out a way to finish that, but pc+gr=bad news

[BTs_Mysterio]

This is stupidity that should be stopped now. I don't want those PC trolls on GR. Especially not the ones who left macs for PCs.