What happened to Democracy? - Gay Marriage

[smoke.aHa!]

gay people shouldnt have kids and need to go live with people that are not included with the rest of the world. like those people that wear funny clothes and live in middle east america and do not use modern things like cars. and think buttons are evil. what are those people called?

[BTs_Mysterio]

If that was a joke, t'wasn't a good one.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

There is a seperation of church and state for a reason.

No, this separation of church and state is something that liberals have twisted and turned into what it is today.  This country was founded on a belief in God.  And now, 200 years later, everyone wants to say that it wasn't.

[Mr. Lothario]

     This country was founded by Deists, not Christians. More specifically, Deists who strongly believed in the separation of church and state. You may be able to bleat that "it was the Lib'rals" on other issues, but not this one. The Founding Fathers knew well what an admixture of church and state led to, and they wanted no part of it. So again, if you're against homosexual marriage (and homosexuals in general), you personally are free to hate them based on the mor?s of a nomadic tribe from millennia ago, but you may not cite those, your personal religious beliefs, as valid reasons why the government of this nation should enact policy.

     I have yet to see a defensible secular reason for discrimination against gays.

[Mr.Mellow]

[sarcasm] Loth, it's all a part of God's plan. He put them on the earth to be tortured and belittled by His holy people. They're on earth only to be made fun of. Didn't you learn that in Sunday school? [/sarcasm]

[BTs_Mysterio]

[sarcasm] Thats the truth mellow, exactly how it is. [/sarcasm]

["Sixhits"]

There is a seperation of church and state for a reason.

No, this separation of church and state is something that liberals have twisted and turned into what it is today.  This country was founded on a belief in God.  And now, 200 years later, everyone wants to say that it wasn't.

Sigh. America was founded WITH a belief in A god. It was not founded on God, or on Christianity, or the Bible. It was a hogpog of the best ideals of all humankind -- some from the Bible, most from elsewhere.

In other words, the founders were men of faith but the institution they founded was not founded on their faith.

[BTs_Mysterio]

AHEM SIXHITS!

[jn.preciousroy]

hi guys, it's precious roy.  I know I haven't posted in over a year, but I was looking for wraths e-mail and happened upon this thread.

I haven't read your previous comments and I'm a bit drunk.  Moreover, there is some drunk girl who I don't know who has vomited white wine and thai food all over my bed. *sigh*

However, what I'm about to say is worth reading. Maybe.  So listen up, kiddies.

There are two types of arguements against gay marriage a) religious and b) non-religious (for those logicians out there: p V ~p)

I'll cover the second group first.

As i see it, there are two "non-religious" arguments against gay marriage.  there is the biological argument and the "sanctity of marriage",  If there are more, I haven't been exposed to them.

the biological argument:  man and woman are meant for eachother and for marriage, as they are the only ones who can procreate.

refuting this: most mammel species have shown evidence of homosexuality.  Moreover, it looks like man is biologically only supposed to stay with their partner for a few (3-6) years and move on; thus defrauding the idea of marriage as biologically neccessary "to death  do we part"

"the sanctity of marriage" argument: marriage between man and man or woman and woman degrades the sanctity of marriage that man and woman have.

refuting this: marriage is a social construct based on a judeo-christian ideal.  thus the "sanctity of marriage" is in fact the sanctity of judeochristian marriage, and thus collapses to a religious argument.

now, the religious argument: gay marriage goes against the teachings of [insert deity or messiah here]

Anyone who argues the whole "sure there is seperation of church and state, but the founding fathers didn't intend this, really" is right.  However, despite what the founding fathers wanted, the constitution and subsequent ammendments have taken on new meanings.  There are many rights now implied by these ammendments that were never intended.  However, the courts have decreed these implications as law, and so they are law.  You don't like it?  Then do what the founding fathers wouyld have done and lynch a slave, see where that gets you.

What it comes down to is that there is no defensible non-religious anti-gay marriage position, nor is there a leg to stand on in a court of law for the religious anti-gay marriage proponent.

So why are you so uncomfortable with it? Homophobia? maybe.  Fear of the unknown, of the misunderstood?  probably.  If you are uncomfortable with the idea, consult your convictions.  You'll find they either lie in your insecurities or your misplaced moral convictions.  Because honestly, if some man is fucking another man in the ass in the privacy of their home, how does that trample on your rights?  Or if a man kisses another man in public, why does that offend you?  Gay coupling happens regardless of the laws that condone or forbid it.  Let them have the same rights that you hold so dear.


Sorry to get preachy at the end.  Remember: me = drunk.

Love,
Precious Roy

[seth]

gay people should be given the same rights than straight couples, but their union should not be called marriage. Call it whatever you want, but not marriage.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Freedom for all, but for some more than others, eh?

[BTs_Mysterio]

Is that the American way Loth?

[Mr. Lothario]

     Most times, it seems that way.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Indeed.

[Blufire]

For whoever it was that said that gay marriage would be "special rights"... IT'S NOT SPECIAL RIGHTS, IT'S EQUAL RIGHTS. Jeez... and it's not like people would be forcing you to hire gays or associate with them, it means merely treat them as equals and not a underclass of moral society.

@Ghost sniper: are you comparing gays to dogs or any kind of animal? Funny logic there. I don't see why we can't draw the line at humans. Equal rights for all men, right?

It seems most arguments against equal marriage rights stem from ignorance, prejudice, and the like... it's a pity. =\

[westamastaflash]

Blufire - my argument was that ALL marriages are "special rights" - special tax benefits, special recognition, etc. The idea was to get rid of BOTH kinds of special rights and allow people to set their marriage contract however they wished.

[Mr.Mellow]

Yep. And even the religious whackos shouldn't be all uptight about gay marriage. If Jesus were alive he'd be pretty pissed off, I reckon. Jesus Christ's teachings were about tolerance and not judging your fellow man. Not quite sure how it got spun into hating gays and arabs. People who are prejudiced and have the balls to call themselves true Christians make me sick.

[Blufire]

Yep. And even the religious whackos shouldn't be all uptight about gay marriage. If Jesus were alive he'd be pretty pissed off, I reckon. Jesus Christ's teachings were about tolerance and not judging your fellow man. Not quite sure how it got spun into hating gays and arabs. People who are prejudiced and have the balls to call themselves true Christians make me sick.

Right, but remember there's a contradicting passage in the Old Testament... "if a man lies with another man as he does with a woman, he shall be put to death" Most religious people dismiss that passage, picking and choosing which verses they adhere to. THAT would be something Jesus would get pissed off about.

[westamastaflash]

Why can't we all just get along?

 

[BTs_Mysterio]

Cause we have different views.