What happened to Democracy? - Gay Marriage

[westamastaflash]

If you allow gay marraige you allow a whole bunch of more people a heck of a lot more rights and coverage by laws.

To name a few:
Insurance for your spouse
legal rights to pension when spouse dies
legal rights to property when spouse dies
legal right to social security when spouse dies
marriage tax breaks
Time off for family death

Like i said before, this is rediculous. As a marriage is a contract between 2 persons, said contract can be worded to allow for things like property transfers. As for the rest, well, you're SOL - and here's the reason.

A privately owned insurance company has NO obligation to provide for your "spouse" unless they put it in the insurance contract - so if a person is gay, then they need to find a company that treats their "marriage contract" the same as a heterosexual couples.

The problem here is not that gays want to be married, its that SPECIAL PRIVILEGES exist in marraiges. Remove marriage from the government  - why does the government need to be involved in a private contract between 2 persons - and the problems go away.

Time off for family death - This is between the employee and the employer to work out, via the employment contract - No one has a "right to time off" (do you see it in the constitution) - hell, people see things like "right to a job" and "right to work" in there, Which brings me to
WESTAMASTAFLASH's RULE #1
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A PERSON TO HAVE A RIGHT THAT REQUIRES SOMEONE ELSE TO PRODUCE IT.

Thus, a right to a job (someone giving them a job), a right to healthcare (a doctor providing services), and a right to food (a farmer making food) do NOT exist.

The SAME applies to marriage. "Legal right" to pension? Please! Pension is part of a contract between an employee and employer - NOT the province of government.

I agree with you on marriage tax breaks, but that can be easily remedied by just requiring that everyone file seperately.

As for social security - Its wrong to begin with (They've stolen thousands of dollars from me already that I will NEVER see - and I'm a poor college student).

[Croosch]

A person who is gay in most cases probably cannot and probably does not want to change him/herself . . . and in many cases I'm sure that it's not their fault that they are gay. Do really believe God meant for the government to in some cases make life miserable for any person. I'm sure that was not his intension. And do you think that justifies the comparing of gays to women having sex with animals? if so you have a pretty twisted way of thinking.

[westamastaflash]

Why does one need to find a "fault" with someone who is gay? And how is the government not granting special rights to someone make life miserable for them? As for the comparison of gays to women having sex with animals - that was kinda low GS.

[BTs_FahQ2]

lol, now we got down to the gist of the argument.  You see how the actual facts turn the arguement into so much more.  

This thread is finally not about republicans and democrats, but more deep down about business, the role of government and personal beliefs.  Now you are beggining to argue the true facts of the issue and not just this, "I hate GW bullshit".  

I am happy you are beggining to be enlightened


BTW, GS this one is for you.  The bible does condone Incest.  So does that mean it would be okay for our government to pass a statute saying marriage between siblings is okay?  I am just opening up more debate on the bible issue.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Well, let's set aside the fact that God gave permission for Israel and only Israel to commit war in His name, and the corollary that America is not listed in the Bible as among God's chosen. Strictly based on that passage of the Bible, we'll say that God unconditionally likes war and thinks it's hunky-dory. Therefore, He also digs the mass murder of infants (Psalm 137:9) and children (II Kings 2:23-24) and pregnant women (Hosea 13:16). Since I've never driven past a church with a sign out front that said, "Friday Night Infanticide -- Bingo After", I deduce that not everything in the Bible is considered acceptable in these enlightened times.

     If the Bible is wrong about things like that, it must be wrong about other things, too. Liiiiiiike homosexuality! Here's a little piece of news: the societal mor?s needed by a small tribe of Israelites are not identical to those needed by a society of millions. For instance, in a small tribe, reproduction is life for the tribe. The more babies, the more people to fight the tribe's enemies, and therefore the more succesful the tribe. In a society of millions, more people are entirely superfluous, they are not needed for the survival of the society in any way, shape, or form. In the situation the small tribe is in, harsh prohibitions against homosexuality are pragmatic and make excellent sense. In the situation the society of millions is in, those same prohibitions are without utility.

     One last thing, if you want to respect the word of Leviticus, how about respecting all of it?

     EDIT: fixed a dumb spelling error.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

BTW, GS this one is for you.  The bible does condone Incest.  So does that mean it would be okay for our government to pass a statute saying marriage between siblings is okay?  I am just opening up more debate on the bible issue.

No, just because the Bible mentions incest, in that it actually happened in the Bible, it is not condoned.  Just like murder, rape, adultery, stealing, and many other acts....the Bible is full of all of those things....but they are not "condoned" by the Bible, or by God.

[westamastaflash]

Loth, how about stoning to death rebellious children? [Deuteronomy 21:18-21]

The whole bible thing seems to me a bit presumptious - we're taking a book that has been compiled over the ages, with passages written about Jesus by persons who never met Jesus (all the gospels), and parts put in / left out by the politics of the early Christian Church, and accepting the entire thing on faith!

How about we start living according to man's mind - REASON. Truth is not derived from emotions - I know many people talk about "finding Jesus" and the emotional experience it was for them.

At one point in my life, I had thought that I had this experience too. Then I got a little older, and as I started to think, reason, and use my mind,  I realized that this is ridiculous.

Call me a atheist republican, libertarian, what you will - but I try every day to use facts and logic to work through problems - not some misguided belief in a deity thats pissed off at me becuase of what a man 5000 years ago did.

EXAMPLE:
Reperations for slavery.
Many republicans think that this is crazy - after all, blacks living today never were slaves, why should they get anything?

Its the same with Original Sin - why should God care what someone else did? Its not MY sin - I didn't do it - Adam did. If God feels that I should be responsible for the sins of my father - screw him.

And the bible can't even agree on it:
(Exodus  20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve  them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the  iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the  fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
(Exodus  34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of  him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate  and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and  truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who  forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means  leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on  the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth  generations."
(Deuteronomy  24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their  sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone  shall be put to death for his own sin."
(Ezekiel  18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son  will not bear the punishment for the father?s iniquity, nor will  the father bear the punishment for the son?s iniquity; the  righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the  wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."


So what do I do? Not think about. If God's out there, and he shows up at my doorstep in person, maybe i'll belive. Not till then.

Oh I suppose this was a little off topic - but I think its important  - it IS possible to be a lover of freedom and responsiblity and not be religious.

[Croosch]

Or follow your heart sometimes and know better than to compare any couple to women having sex with animals . . . I truthfully don't care if it refers to that in the bible, I would have thought that anybody especially a grown man like GS would no better than to even say something so stupid and ridiculous.

["Sixhits"]

This is what it comes down to:

Believe what you want, but get you beliefs out of my life.

I've had premartial sex -- where is my fire and brimstone? How many people are adulterious? Look at the rash of divorce in America.

But, in the end, all these things are effectively normal. Premartial sex, adultry, divorce -- they are all to some distasteful. But they are all legal, though they have differing repercusions.

How is Gay sex significantly worse than divorce? Than premartial sex? Than adultry? In fact it's wonderfully better, because it will allow people to be more truly faithful to each other. In a land of broken families and sexual debauchery, the beauty to be found in sincere love and commitment is something we should cherish -- and support.

[cO.Kuza]

vote Bush, Jesus 04

[Mr.Mellow]

I don't see how you can compare a woman marrying a dog and two guys/girls marrying eachother. The dog cannot consensually agree to marriage, nor can it propose to a woman. That whole arguement is ridiculous.

[seth]

.but they are not "condoned" by the Bible, or by God.[/color][/size]

how do you arrogant miserable human being know what "God" says or think ?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

.but they are not "condoned" by the Bible, or by God.[/color][/size]

how do you arrogant miserable human being know what "God" says or think ?

Read the Bible.  It is the word of God.  That is how you know what God says and thinks.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Or the word of a lier who has made billions of dollars by faking the whole thing.

["Sixhits"]

It's so interesting to me see how those that read the Bible often claim it is the word of God, then among themselves disagree so vehemontly on what he's trying to say that they murder each other.

I sit back and feel for their losses and laugh at their foolishness.

[BTs_Mysterio]

If it was gods word there would be no question about what he means.

[seth]

hum.... i smell a religious debate coming. Long time no see !

[*NADS Lo$eMoney]

Well, why stop there....I mean really, you have women having sex with dogs on the internet and I'm sure someone like Typhy fucks goats (or maybe an elk up there in Alaska).....and I'm sure people "love" their animals.....so hey, why not let them get married too?  Hell, all you immoral people already have made a mockery out of marriage between a man and a woman (look at who your role-model was...Bill Clinton).

Hmmm now if I remember correctly your stance on drugs was: "If people want to destroy their bodies and minds on drugs, let them".  So why isnt gay marriage a simmilar issue?  I mean if people want to commit "immoral" acts why not let them?  A gay couple getting married isn't hurting anyone, so why care?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Well, why stop there....I mean really, you have women having sex with dogs on the internet and I'm sure someone like Typhy fucks goats (or maybe an elk up there in Alaska).....and I'm sure people "love" their animals.....so hey, why not let them get married too?  Hell, all you immoral people already have made a mockery out of marriage between a man and a woman (look at who your role-model was...Bill Clinton).

Hmmm now if I remember correctly your stance on drugs was: "If people want to destroy their bodies and minds on drugs, let them".  So why isnt gay marriage a simmilar issue?  I mean if people want to commit "immoral" acts why not let them?  A gay couple getting married isn't hurting anyone, so why care?

Now you are just Pushing the limits of acceptable human behaviour....

[BTs_Mysterio]

GS, reply to my real debate before picking out the only things you can reply to.