What happened to Democracy? - Gay Marriage

[Ssickboy]

Does our government truly believe in the democratic process or not?  We just spent Billions, eventually Trillions, in US funds to oust a dictator "in the name of freedom."  Yet a dictatorship is what the Bush admin would rather rule by.  

Their stance on gay marriage says it all.  The Constitution is supposed to uphold rights and freedoms, and they propose an ammendment to do the exact opposite.  They're going to lengths to take away freedom.  Or dictate on the rest of us how they see a free society working.  That's not a democracy.  Same goes with the way Bush approaches the rest of the world.  No matter what world opinion is, we choose to forge ahead disregarding others views to change the world how we (or this administration) sees fit.  

Kerry and Edwards have it right.  You don't have to agree with gay marriage but you do have to respect the democratic system to decide what is right.  That's why they propose giving individual states respectful decision over the matter.  

Bush pushing his view and agenda on not only his own people but dictating to the world how things are going to be run is next to dictatorship.  Our way or the highway is not a democracy.  The consititution does not advocate or protect moral laws determined by the bible.  The very core reason settlers came to America was to live in a culture where they could live by their beliefs regardless of popular opinion.  The constitution was written to protect that, not dictate it.  The right wing is way wrong.  Bush has lost touch with what this country's constitution is all about.  And it's even sicker that he stomps around the world waving a democratic flag while destroying other sovereign nations.  Bad or not.  He's not the one to be calling the shots.  

[BTs_Mysterio]

I agree Ssick on the idea here. You don't have to agree with it but you respect what the democratic system decides is right. I have a feeling all of this has to do heavily with Bush and his "friends" trying to mix religion with politics again.

[Mr.Mellow]

I stole this from another forum.

12 Reasons Homosexual Marriages Should Be Illegal
1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control are not natural.

2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile couples and old people cannot get legally married because the world needs more children.

3. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because straight parents only raise straight children.

4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful, since Britney Spears's 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.

5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time, and it hasn't changed at all: women are property, Blacks can't marry Whites, and divorce is illegal.

6. Gay marriage should be decided by the people, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not the courts, have historically protected the rights of minorities.

7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are always imposed on the entire country. That's why we only have one religion in America.

8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people makes you tall.

9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage license.

10. Children can never succeed without both male and female role models at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.

11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marraiage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to cars or longer lifespans.

12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because a 'separate but equal' instittution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages will for gays and lesbians.

[Mr. Lothario]

     I tend to think that Bush's war on homosexuality is less due to his religion and more due to the fact that he's an intensely closeted faggot. "No one must ever know!"

[BTs_Mysterio]

    I tend to think that Bush's war on homosexuality is less due to his religion and more due to the fact that he's an intensely closeted faggot. "No one must ever know!"

 Well his wife does resemble a man....

[westamastaflash]

Ah but Democracy is the last thing you want here - say that 51% of the people decide that gay marriage should be illegal?

The problem here is twofold:

The religious lobby wants to ban gay marriage (a contract between 2 women or 2 men).

The gay lobby wants it to be legally recognized and to force hospitals, insurance companies, etc, to recognize it as a "marraige" in the sense of benefits etc.

But both take freedoms from people - in the first, the freedom of the gays to associate and make contracts. In the second, the freedom of a insurance company owner to NOT associate with those he/she believe (however wrongly) to be not married.

People often liken the "gay struggle" to the struggle of blacks during the jim crow era.

There is a flaw in this logic however.

During the jim crow era, white business owners were FORCED by the gov't to not allow blacks into their PRIVATEY owned establishements. The reason why the laws had to be passed was because some businesses would allow blacks (and why not, as they can make more money by doing this?)

Now we have the opposite - so called "anti-discrimination" laws that take away a persons FREEDOM TO NOT ASSOCIATE with those people he/she would rather not associate with.

The "gay struggle" is to try to force people to accept them and associate with them - which is completely anti-freedom.

If I am a business owner, I can hire whoever I like, it DOES NOT MATTER what reason, a MORAL government should not force me to accept those persons who I would rather not associate with - be it drug users, gays, blacks, whites, mexicans, etc etc.

"... the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community against his will is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or to forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because in the opinions of others to do so would be wise or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil in case he do otherwise."
-- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty [1859]

Me not hiring someone does not HARM them - they have no MORAL RIGHT to that job.

Back to the topic however -
I have no problem with gay marriage as a contract between 2 persons - i DO have a problem with it being specially recognized by government - just as I have a problem with the special recognition given to a heterosexual marriage.

Stop campaigning for special rights gay activists!

[Mr.Mellow]

Hmm. The way I see it, it's their own business if they want to get married. Everyone's entitled to the pursuit of happiness, and the government can't take that away. Not letting gays get married is a slap in the face to our founding fathers and to the constitution itself. It's the whole "Everyone's equal, but some are more equal than others" bullshit all over again. Gays being married doesn't hurt me one bit. Hell, even homophobes should be for gay marriage. Once they have equal rights, they won't have anything to bitch about. Honestly, I don't even think it should be up to the states to decide if they can marry or not. That seems like an on-the-fence stand to me. Let them get their damn gay marriages so I can have my CNN back.  

[BTs_Mysterio]

I agree with Mellow. Although CNN sucks.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Not that im supporting CNN, but what's better that you guys have up there? The Northwest Territories Daily New Report?  (Is it still under that name, or Nunavut(sp?)territory?)

[BTs_Mysterio]

Lonewolf, if you ever act so arrogant again I will be sure to block you forever and make some deals with GS so he will go and hunt you down.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

whups forgot the </sarcasm> =P

[BTs_FahQ2]

Hrm, most of you are actually missing the entire point of this whole debate.  It's just not stated because it looks mighty evil. But the anti gay marriage platform is actually being paid by many industries and this is where the pressure comes from.

If you allow gay marraige you allow a whole bunch of more people a heck of a lot more rights and coverage by laws.

To name a few:
Insurance for your spouse
legal rights to pension when spouse dies
legal rights to property when spouse dies
legal right to social security when spouse dies
marriage tax breaks
Time off for family death

These are a few things that would swamp financial burden upon the states and the federal government on a whole new level.  Not only this, but the many companies don't want to have to pay for these extra people.

They feel they cannot truly verify a gay marriage attempt to receive these special exemptions that married couples do get. It is not the idea of a marriage that scares them, it is all of the shit that comes with it.  Just look at all of the laws and initiatives that it took to verify that people were not getting married just for citizenship.  This is the same can of worms, but it can be on a much larger level.  

How hard would it be to prove that two same sex people are actually in love and want to get married, compared to those who are exploiting the new loophole (so to speak).  It would take a whole bunch of new laws, government measures, and personnel to make this happen.

So please, it is not just the Republicans hate gays.  This is actually scaring some democrats that know these facts, but then again, we always think it is party bias.

[Croosch]

It's not the governments place to say who and who you cannot marry (with some obvious acceptions) Is George Bush (the government) and the power-house industries really that afraid of being effected by the gays? Always has been and always will be gays in the world, if they get married and try to live a life as normal as they can without it being altered by the government so be it, let them get married and be happy.

If you allow gay marraige you allow a whole bunch of more people a heck of a lot more rights and coverage by laws.

To name a few:
Insurance for your spouse
legal rights to pension when spouse dies
legal rights to property when spouse dies
legal right to social security when spouse dies
marriage tax breaks
Time off for family death

I also believe that any married couple, whether a gay or straight marriage, should have the same rights.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Well, why stop there....I mean really, you have women having sex with dogs on the internet and I'm sure someone like Typhy fucks goats (or maybe an elk up there in Alaska).....and I'm sure people "love" their animals.....so hey, why not let them get married too?  Hell, all you immoral people already have made a mockery out of marriage between a man and a woman (look at who your role-model was...Bill Clinton).

[Mr. Lothario]

     HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh GS, you're a riot.

[Croosch]

as I said before

(with some obvious acceptions)

You or George Bush will not change the fact that gays are out there, why are you so afraid of letting them get married? I'm not talking about animals and women or Typhy and Elk in Alaska, I'm talking about people. You're comparing gay marriage to animals and women have sex... I'm sorry, but that is extremely low and I'm sure it would be extremely insulting to many people.

[BTs_Mysterio]

GS you need to tone that down a bit.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

You're comparing gay marriage to animals and women have sex... I'm sorry, but that is extremely low and I'm sure it would be extremely insulting to many people.

I'm so sorry, but the Bible I read says that a sin is a sin.  It says God looks on all sin the same, whether it is two people of the same sex having unnatural affections for each other, or animal beastiality, or murder, or even lying.  So don't say I'm being insulting....God said it, that settles it.  Doesn't matter if you believe in God or the Bible, or not.  It will come to pass that these people will go to hell for their sins (unless they get saved at some point).  So if you don't like it, take it up with him.  

[Mr. Lothario]

     How did you deal with being a soldier, knowing you would be damned if you did your job?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

    How did you deal with being a soldier, knowing you would be damned if you did your job?

Killing another person in time of war is not murder.  God even condoned war in the Bible when he told Israel to rise up and strike their enemies.  You need to find a new definition of murder, my friend.