Echoes of Abu Ghraib

[BFG]

Id like to post up a article i have just read in todays paper, its a fair lengh so forgive any typo's etc This article follows on by a complete 8 page detailed report into the abuse of 'detainees' in Afganistan by US soldiers - wide spread abuse similar and in cases worse that what has emerged from Abu Ghraib.

Army fury at Hebon Soldiers' brutality exhibition

Israeli military police yesterday interrogated five reserve soldiers who put on an exhibition detailing the "banal evil" of their occupation of the Palestinian city of Hebron.
A video of testomonies by seventy soldiers was confiscated, as was an archive of newspaper clippings. An army spokesman said the police were looking for evidence of crimes committed against Palestinian residents of Hebron.
The soldiers who put on the exhibition could not be contacted yesterday, but previously they had accused the army of trying to harass them with an investigation. "We would be quite happy if they were going to investigate the crimes committed against Palestinins. But this is just an attempt to keep us quiet. The problem is not with what the soldiers say they have seen, it is with the army as a whole," said Yonathan Boumfeld, one of the organsiers.
The exhibition, Breaking the Silence, features photos taken by around 80 soldiers who served in Hebron, and their videotaped testimonis.
They describe a day-to-day routine of himiliating Palestininans, and their didsmay at the behaviour of the 600 Jewish settlers thy protect. Some tell of harassing a Palestinian bride and groom, ofthers of throwing stun grenades at children for fun. The soldiers behind the exhibition say they want to show Isrel how its young soldiers as well as the Palestininans, become brutalised by the mundane reality of occupation.
THe gallery at Tel Aviv College has become an arena for bitter argument and earnest questioning. The soldiers have been accused of treachery and revealing information that should be kept secret.
At the entrance of the exhibition are twenty four portraits, twenty two men, one women and a dummy, all in uniform. "Every mother should know that, however cute thier son was before he went into the army, he will emerge very different after three years - not knowing right from wrong," one soldier explained. There are many picutres of Palestinians who re blindfolded and bound, either in a jeep or on the street. In one photo, two Palestinians sit by a wall and an Israeli soldier stands before the camera holding his crotch.
"These guys were on the street during a curfew. Maybe they didn't now. We just took them for four hours and then let them go. It becomes very easy to do after a while", said Micha Kurtz, one of the exhibition organisers. HE said that the first time he heard of soldiers taking pictures of themselves together with dead Palestinians he was shocked. BUt after a while he got used to it. HE even heard of one soldier having his picture taken together with a severed head.
A spokesman for the Israeli army said that military police would investigate the allegations of the violence against Palestinians and damage to Palestinian Property. "The army teaches its soldiers to act morally even in complex situations," the army said. All the soldiers are keen not to be associated with the Refusal to Serve movement or the Israeli left, but privately say around sixty of those who served in Hebron will avoid serveing again, either by direct refusal or by "grey refusal" claiming mental illness of some kind.
Hebron has 600 Jewish settlers and 120,000 Palestinians. The exhibition also features countless pictures of settler vandalism and graffiti with racist and fascist undertones. A car sticker says in Hebrew: Becoming religious gives us the power to kick out the Arabs.
One solderi testified: "What I understood finally, after six months, was that we were guarding the Palestininas from the Jews; we wereen't there to guard and protect the Jews. THe Jews are the one who threaten the Palestinians more in this area."

[bronto]

i'm sorry if i sound racist, but those jews make me fucking sick. hiding behind our alliance and abusing the military we gave them to their own interest, destroying the palestinians. isreal is going to keep on doing so thinking it's ok because we're allies.

[BFG]

Ah but bronto your not allowed to criticise israel - because if you do you must be racist apparently. No israel must be allowed to do whatever it wants like america - and well as for these poor israeli soldiers - i hope they don't just disapear into military prisons somewhere for blowing the whistle

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and assume that you guys, and your family before you, applauded Hitler when they found out he had exterminated 6 MILLION Jews.

[BFG]

I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and assume that you guys, and your family before you, applauded Hitler when they found out he had exterminated 6 MILLION Jews.

And there you have it bronto right on time - a perfect example of my point.  - your not allowed to critise what the israeli's are doing becasuse someone like ghostsniper will then believe that you must be a nazi and support the extermination of the jewish race.
And it seems now even the israeli soldiers are not allowed to critise what their country is doing. Disgusting

[Abe 2.0]

BFG,
Accusing anyone who critisizes Israel of being anti-semetic is lame and people like GS will use it as a way to avoid a discussion of the issue.  

First of all, Hebron is not your average settlement, since it is the site of the tomb of the patriarchs where abraham is buried and thus hold a particular importance to religious settlers, who are the most militant among the settlers. Also, there has been a jewish population in Hebron for hundreds of years , because of this religious significance. Hebron was also the site of a Arab "pogrom" in 1929 (look up hebron massacre).In other places, such as the eastern suburbs of jerusalem, people become "settlers" because housing is cheap and they can have a bigger place. When Israel handed parts of the west bank over to the PA in the 90s, palestinian police allowed a lot of jewish religious sites to be vandalized by mobs and looters, so many of the settlers use that as a pretext never to leave Hebron.

Israel pulled out of much of the West Bank as part of the peace process, but reoccupied them recently in order to stop suicide bombings. It's worked for the most part. If the Palestinians can get their act together and prevent attacks themselves then the IDF will pull out. The occupation is taking its tole on Israel as well and most Israelis would rather see it end i'm sure, but if the alternative is daily suicide bombings then it will continue until the Palestinians take their future into their own hands and start acting like a state. Any state has the responsibility to make sure none of its citizens are harming those of another state, so I dont see how this is any different. So "those jews" have every right in the world to prevent palestinians from blowing them up, unless the Palestinians do something about it themselves. Until that happens, I don't think anyone on the Israeli side feels like doing anything about the settlements, since they provide a good forward base for the IDF to prevent people sneaking into Israel with explosive belts. And guess what...all Israelis (including the 20% that are Arab) have the right to vote, so unlike the palestinians, it actually makes a difference what the public thinks.

[bronto]

sometimes, i really think man should just start over again, without religion this time.

[BFG]

I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and assume that you guys, and your family before you, applauded Hitler when they found out he had exterminated 6 MILLION Jews.

I cant quite believe anyone would post something like this, let alone for it to be considered acceptable on these forums.  
I can't describe how offensive i take this take as this nor the disgust that i feel for what you have written.  You seem totally inept at comprehending what is being discussed in most of these threads and instead find the easiest part which you feel you can attack or insult.

Your comprehension of the rest of the world, of people, of anything other than guns and how you seem to believe that you, your military and america are the god given rulers of this earth, truly amazes me. However it seems to highlight such a lack of intellegence on your part that i am quite simply amazed you manage to dress yourself and tie your shoe laces every morning. Thankheavens you are a carsales man and nothing else, for the more people like you with political power in America the more damage is done to both America, Americans and the Stability of the world.  

How any self respecting individual can say the things you say on the forums i do not know, thankfully you seem to be outumbered on these forums by respectfull intellegent individuals who are capable of discussion and debate, of disagreement and agreemnt, that keep these forums interesting and enjoyable.

So i hope you stay in your little bubble of how you think America and the rest of the world opporates, becasue sure as hell it is people like you that have caused so much damage to this world in recent years. Forget Islamic Fundamentalists, as a Christian Fundamentalist i think you and your believes are just as dangerous as any evil you believe you are fighting. Before you look else where try having a look inside, Its rotten to the core.

Yet  you seem at times extreamly polite, intelligent and knowlegable, and show astonishing generosity. It is quite remarkable mix. But to post this sort of horrificly abusive and insulting content on these forums is appauling and disgusting.

enough

[BTs_Mysterio]

I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and assume that you guys, and your family before you, applauded Hitler when they found out he had exterminated 6 MILLION Jews.

Ghost. That is such fucking bullshit you need to go and seek council for your fucking insanity. Jesus christ. You are so fucking brainwashed on these issues. You say the N. Korea advertisement was offensive you really need to look in the fucking mirror. You cross lines way too often. Just back off GS.

Bronto, I support what you said 110%