A few pictures of the Children who arn't getting shot

[cO.gabe]

Gabe, neither side will stop fighting because they're too proud and too stubborn. Well, not unless one side gets a drastic change in their ideology.

Ok, fair enough.  I guess my opinion is no more valid than yours on that point.  No real way to prove it.  Personally, I don't believe that Israel has any ideology except for Israel to remain in existance.  They are not out to conquer another country or wipe out populations, they just want to live like normal people in the land that was given to them.  End of story.

[Mr.Grey]

well.... i guess if none of them got jeruselam that wouldsolve the problem... no im joking theres a 0.001 chance that would cross either of their minds
  yeah its heartless to depict that but... ill stop talkin now... look at dem children go down!

[Ssickboy]

Gabe, neither side will stop fighting because they're too proud and too stubborn. Well, not unless one side gets a drastic change in their ideology.

Ok, fair enough.  I guess my opinion is no more valid than yours on that point.  No real way to prove it.  Personally, I don't believe that Israel has any ideology except for Israel to remain in existance.  They are not out to conquer another country or wipe out populations, they just want to live like normal people in the land that was given to them.  End of story.

Yo, if you get kicked out of your hotel room with no other rooms left in the middle of the night because the Hotel management wanted to appease their richer client, what would you do?  You're not reimbursed, you're not given another room.  You're told to put up or shut-up.  So you camp out next door in the boiler room.  But then that new guest decides they'd like to expand their room into your boiler room.  WTF now bro?  

Oh! and the reason they want to expand into the boiler room is because they're afraid of people like you.  

[BFG]

1. I do not support the palestinian suicide bombers who cross the borders of israeli and kill and maim innocent israeli civilians. I never have and i never will. The damage and destruction they have caused is horrific. I have no support for what they have done.

2. I, it seems unlike so many of you, consider there to be a difference between a terrorist group, and a nations army. the terrorist group is what it is, terrorists - who will stop at nothing to achive their goals by any means, to put it in 'american' they are the bad guys. The Army of israel are not and never should be the same. They are commanded by the goverment of their country.  Thefore i do not judge the actions of the israeli army the same as a group of terrorists.

3. I freely admit, right here right now, if a country invaded my land, claiming it to be theirs becasue their 'god' gave it to them, destroyed my home, killed the members of my family, then i would and will do everything within my power to defend what family i have left. if i have no gun and the army is coming for my family i will strap explosives to my body and try to kill them before they kill me. becasue i love my family above all else. For those palestinians resisting the israeli forces who are invading their homes, shooting their children, destroying their homes, i have every sympathy imaginable.

4. There is little debate over the fact that America has a immense power over the actions of Israel. Britain fucked up. No debate there, britian fucked up un imaginably. Right now however, where Britian and other countrys condem this atrocities carried out by the Israelis, as with the actions of the suicide bombers, when it comes to the actions of Israel, the US refuses to comment, other than to urgre restraint and to stress the need for israel to 'defend themselves'. Is this a one way plane? Can the palestinians not defend themselfs?

5. For every innocent civilian in palestine, for every man, woman, child that is killed by the israeli army, 10, 20, 30 people willing to become suicide bombers are born. Becasue they see what their lives are like under the israeli occupation, and they will do whatever they can to end it.

6. One one side we have an increasingly popular terrorist group. The population support them becasue they feel they are their defence, they are the people who will fight to defend their country. Yet at the same time, those who do not support them, those who have no say, those who's children are shot by israeli snipers, what say do they have? those who arn't fighting yet are suffering at the hands of the israelis?

7. IT is not 'everyone' . There are hundreds of thousands of israelis who rightly oppose what their goverment is doing to palestine in their name. And likewise there are hundreds of thousands of palestinians who simply want to live in safty, without a illigal occupation force under whom they cannot leave the house for fear of being targeted.

8. To whoom whoever said that more israeli's had been killed in this conflict than palestinians, i would be very keen to know where that was found... for everything i have read, learnt in these years, it is that the number of palestinian civilians out weights israeli casualtys by many many times. Any deaths on either side is tragic.

[The Golden Shark]

....If defending themselves means making a few Palistinians suffer, I won't object.

HA!! you might start to object if any of those lives you deam so unworthy were related to you. think about that jackass.

no doubt both are bad. but sometimes, just sometimes fighting fire with fire doesn't work.

[c| Dr. NO]

After just breezing over this thread i would like to say this.  Remember when we were first talking about going in to Iraq and all the good we were going to give them.  We could'nt find any WMD so we focus on the fact that Saddam is a bad man and regardless of that lie, we've already done a good thing here.

Now that is true, and most Iraqi's say that yes, they supported the U.S. invasion to get rid of Saddam.  But now...wtf are we doing, who is commanding these soldiers?  OH, right, i forgot, we now contract responsibility off to mercenaries who worry not about any repercussions.

So as our administration rings the bell of liberty, Justus, and democracy thousands upon thousands of Innocent Iraqi's are soldered due to claims of so called "foreign fighters" and "terrorists" that MAY have been in that area.

Even the troops there believe they are fighting terror.  Meanwhile every report coming for foreign aid workers tells us their fighting ordinary citizens that are fed up and angry because of the long lists of friend and family deaths.  From the cease fire sniper kills, to the suspected site bombings.

Defend your countries actions as much as you want GS, but come the day when you want to go on vacation you might get a slap of reality, because this is what the world sees my friend.  CNN, ABC, and fox news is no such place of true reporting for the people is America.

[alaric]

I wish people would stop politicizing this and spinning it to their view. What's happening in Israel right now is more complex than one side being right and one side being wrong.

Both sides are way in the wrong right now. They're both murdering innocents.

Both are to blame for the way things are. Both feel like they've been backed into a corner and have no alternative but to strike out against the other for survival. Both sides need to wake up and realize this kind of conflict doesn't solve a damn thing. It just causes more pain and suffering for everyone.

Until BOTH sides realize killing is not the answer and is in neither of their best interests, there will never be peace, only tragedy.

The bodies of the dead are not the price of peace, they only sow the seeds of the next generation of dead.

[Typhy]

I don't go in for the "god promised them that land" bullshit, nor the "Israel stole land that rightfully belonged to Palestine, so they have a right to resist" bullshit. What's done is done, and ultimatly, arguing over who the land belongs to is counterproductive. Israel won't back off, nor will Palestine, that is to say that arguing over who the land belongs to is useless.

I think Israel has handled the situation there about as poorly as possible. They fail to accept that no matter how many "millitants" they kill, there will always be more people willing to strap bombs to themselves. They Israeli military strategy in that area is only creating more of these people. The "we're having trouble with terrorists, so let's go bulldoze some homes, oh, I'm sure that destroying these people's houses won't give them incentive to act against us" attitude will never work.

That said, I find it incredibly hard to support any group of people who target civilians are much as the Palestinian suicide bombers do. As I said in my post about Iraq, shooting it out with soldiers is one thing, bringing civilians into the picture - as weaposn - is another, and one that I'll never support for any reason.

Regardless of the results, the design of every Israeli military operation is to kill people who are threats to Israel, where as the design of the Palestinian suicide bombings is to harm innocent Israelis.

Both sides are wrong, but sides are doing a shitty job of persuing a resolution for the conflict, but I believe that the tactics used by the Palestinian suicide bombers are far, far worse than the tactics used by the Israeli army.

[Ssickboy]

Have you guys considered that there are 4 sides to this issue.  Besides Hamas, and the Israeli Elected government, There are a chunk of people on either side that are helpless to what their leadership or lack or of leadership is pursuing.  Israeli Government is elected and the people are for the most part responsible for it's actions.  I can't defend them very well from conducting this stupid shit.  On the Palestinian side the terrorist regimes have practicly taken over a nation in chaos without any kind of representative leadership.  The first step to stopping the wild terror is to help establish and defend a representative government that is held accountable to some degree.  Arafat might not have been the best, but deconstructing his authority creating a void did not help.  Matter of fact that's exactly what Hamas wanted.  And simply appointing someone pretending to be the leader won't help the overall picture either.  

Israel is in a very unfortunate position and but they've done nothing but feed the anger leaving a very confused desperate people to fend for their livelyhood.  Then add Hamas into the mix and we have a problem.  I don't support terrorism at all, but in order for this to be resolved the Palestinian people need some attention.  And that lack of it has opened the door for terrorism to take over.  

Like I mentioned before, I think the solution is locking the Israeli border tightly shut, bringing in a UN force to maintain that border (as ugly as that might get), support the Palestinian people in developing a government and strong police force.  And finally allowing natural time to negotiate terms with Israel and Palestine to heal back into civility.  

You don't pick an infected scab until it goes away, you protect it and treat it.  Palestinians are not animals!!  Religious fundementalism and fanatic patriotism is ultimately fed by ignorant and extreme foreign actions.  

I ultimatley believe that it's only a matter of time before WMD's are prevailently available around the world, and unless we help this world heal naturally and restore order we will all have a major problem on our hands.  There is no defeating terrorism with all out war.  Some of you will never get this.  Hopefully your kids will.  

[cO.gabe]

If Israel pulls out the the West Bank and Gaza immediately, and stops its attacks on Palistinians, will the suicide bombings stop?  I truthfully don't know the answer to this question.

If not, then what do the Israelis do?  Do they take back the West Bank and Gaza?  Do they just let the bombings keep coming?  Do they just abandon their homes and their land and give it to the Palistinians?

Just some things to think about.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

If Israel pulls out the the West Bank and Gaza immediately, and stops its attacks on Palistinians, will the suicide bombings stop?

Of course they wont stop.  Some day all of you will realize that these people want the Israelis EXTERMINATED.  And I mean that just like Hitler wanted them EXTERMINATED.  This is why there will never be peace.  You could put all of the Israelis in one city in one small corner of Israel and there would still be suicide attacks against them, and somebody would still be trying to get what little piece of land they are on.

You guys are really really stupid if you honestly think that ANYONE in the Middle East wants to live in peace with Israel.  They want Israel GONE OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

You people who think that there will be peace in the Middle East have to be kidding yourselves...I quote myself from earlier this year (even though I have mentioned this numerous times each time a stupid thread like this comes along)

The closest would have to be in 1995 until Yitzhak Rabin was gunned down by a Jew extremeist (yet another reason why there will never be peace in the Middle East...extremeists on both sides would never allow it to happen).

I might sympathize more with the Palestinean cause if not for the fact that suicide bombers are targeting civilian targets that have absolutely NO military value whatsoever. Last time I checked, teenagers eating at a pizzeria have nothing to do with the oppression of Palestinean civilians.

Not saying I sympathize with the Israeli's either, but someone has to make counter arguments when a complex issue such as this is being turned into a slanted black and white issue. As for the classifications between terrorist group and standing army, when the leadership of the Palestineans does nothing to stop terrorist groups, and when the terrorist groups are WIDELY supported by the people it represents, it is as good as a standing army. You seem to forget that some of those conducting terrorist activites are in fact part of Arafat's Fatah movement, and not fringe elements (although HAMAS is pretty much mainstream).

Both sides of this issue can post pictures of the aftermath of aggression from either side, so putting that kind of propaganda in your post is useless. Hell, doing a quick google search, I have found the bloodstained remains of transit buses and supermarkets in Israeli territory, but I have enough common sense and overall knowledge of the situation that posting them will not do any good.

[one !]

I may be far far far away from this topic...but to respond to bobby's post.

Europe started the Crusades which started jihad!  So, you were involved with it somewhat...

[PLOPje]

Well ghostsniper if you see it like that you need to see that the only possibility is for isreal to move out of the middle east or they just need to wipe out the whole middle east.
Its not because you want war everywhere that everyoen wants it.
They could atleast try to move their troops out of there and see if theres a possibilty for peace, that seems better to me then just keep on killing eachother. But isreal would never do such thing, hell I dont think isreal wants peace.
Ho and if isreal invaded palestina because they needed to defend themselfes why do they kick palestinians out of their land and let isrealis live there?
Hell just move half your population in the neigbour country and then attack that country saying your defending your population.

[BFG]

ITs ok guys! ISraeli has managed another successfull terrorist grab! Oh yes they have destroyed a terrorist installation and captured a whole number of terrorists.

The insterlation in question is called a "ZOO" There was an astonishing BBC report last night and they actually had footage of the military bulldozers ploughing through buildings and totally destroying the zoo. some soldiers thankfully released some of the animals and have therfore survived.

The BBC reporter managed to talk to the Israeli Authorities about the incident. She was told that it was rubbish and the zoo was fine..... she persisted. They told her that it was non of her business and to go away and stop asking stupid questions about fictional events...

Eventually they told her that a bulldozer had accidently 'brushed' into a building and unintentionally reversed into the zoo.....

when she told them she had been there and that here camera man had filmed the whole thing, their new statment was that the zoo had been a area of conflict (yeah those animals are pretty wild) and that the bulldozers were sent in to clear a path as the area had been booby trapped....

Lying little fuckers.

[cO.gabe]

Wow, i doubt that really happened the way you said it.  The BBC has a tendancy to bend stories like that.  It's a shame.

[BFG]

Yes the BBC are really renound for making stories up... um yes... they just imagined it really.... Just a figment of their imagination.

Um no?

This isn't Fox news or CNN that we are talking about.... they don't tend to make up shit about everything or bend it for the American market!

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Yes the BBC are really renound for making stories up... um yes... they just imagined it really.... Just a figment of their imagination.
Um no?
This isn't Fox news or CNN that we are talking about.... they don't tend to make up shit about everything or bend it for the American market!

No, they bend it for the EUROPEAN MARKET.  Man, the BBC has the worst spin around.  No, I take that back.....Those fucked-up Arab Networks have the WORST spin around.....lol

[Noto]

Some of Noto's points...

?   They've been fighting for about 2,000 years.  You probably shouldn't expect to see peace in your lifetime.

?   The Israelis are attacking known terrorists, who by the way just happen to hide behind women and children.  Not that there's anything... wrong with that...

?   Nearly every extension of the "olive branch" by the Israelis has been thrown back in their faces by a Palestinian group blowing up something.  Nearly everytime they have had a truce or peace agreement, Israeli wasn't the first one to break it.  (Probably 100% of the time, but I haven't put forth the effort into looking for such an event, but I'm sure it's at least close to 100% of the time.)

?   Sharon actually tried creating a Palestinian state, but even his own party rejected the idea, backed by most of the Israeli population of course.  Remember, he can try for peace all he wants, but when you're the typical Israeli living with the fear that your kid's school bus might be the next thing blown up, you don't exactly start cheering at the thought of giving known terrorists a place to call "home".

?   I've never seen a Tibetan Monk make himself into a human bomb.  Maybe if the Palestinians prayed a bit more instead of honing their bomb making skills they would get some results.

?   Daniel Taub (Israeli secretary of something...) said it best when he described living in Israeli like living in a warzone.  He pointed out that any country would do exactly what they were doing if they were in their (Israel's) shoes.  I happen to agree with that statement.  I could never imagine living in a place like that, but if I was, I sure wouldn't take it sitting down.

?   People can keep jumping all over the U.S. for all I care.  At least the Americans are trying to do something, even if it's not working as well in the eyes of those who do not even try.  By the way, can we have another round of applause for Europe and letting the ethnic cleansing of the Balkans go on for as long as it did?  ::clap... clap... clap...::

.::|N| Noto

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Im surprised nobody has mentioned this so far.  "This" being religion.  Noto aluded to it in his first point of the Arabs and Jews having been at each others throats for roughly 2000 years, (give or take a hundred)  but that is the big thing that is keeping the two sides at each other.  It may be that by this point its like Romeo & Juliet, where the sides have really forgotten the reasons theyre fighting, and are just killing because they were taught to, but on the surface, it is religion, and religious teachings.  Pure and simple.  

Jeruselum (sp?) holy city for both sides, Israel has it, the Palestinians want it back.  Neither side is willing to compromise -AT ALL-.  I believe someone suggested the idea of an eastern section that is Palestinian, but i have a suspicion that it was shot down almost before it got into the air.

The West Bank, i dont know why, but it is also vitally important to both Arab and Jewish faiths, and again, neither side is willing to budge.  The possibility for compromise on the West Bank is greater than that of Jeruselum, but not by much.  

So, next up on the list are the Golan Heights.  Israel wants to hold onto the heights only for defensive purposes, but i dont think that really maters anymore, since Lebenon is too small to mount an attack on its own, Syria has its own internal problems, and both Egypt and Jordan have officially recognized Israel's right to exist, so they dont have much need of the defenses, but they hold onto them for no other reason than they dont know who to give the heights back to.

Now last on the list is a place that is totally an completely worthless as far as religious teachings go.  The Gaza Strip.  Of absolutely zero significance to the Jewish or Arabic faiths.  Hey guess what?  They Israeli's would be happy to give that back to the Palestinians!  Why?  Because as ive already said twice, it doesnt mean anything to them religiously.  So who cares who has it?

As you may notice, the two biggest things the Palestinians want back are the two things the Israeli's have absolutely no intention of giving.  Each side knows it is right, and refuses to even think otherwise.  Both sides are beating each other to a pulp in their own way (Israel with high tech weapons and the Palestinians with guerilla tactics and bombs) And with each mounting attrocity, they draw further and further from any hope of reconcilliation.  

So what's that leave us with?  Absolutely no solution at all.  I dare anyone to suggest a realistic solution to the problem.  

The Palestinians will never lay down their arms and stop fighting, before the Israeli's do because thats like in the middle of a duel unloading your weapon and asking the other guy (who still has a very loaded gun in Israel's case) to be nice and not blow your brains out the back of your head, after youve killed his entire family.  Mmmmmhm, like thats going to happen. (Plus, remember, they know theyre right in fighting, so why quit when you know youre right?)

And the Israeli's will never stop trying to kill or arrest the members of Hamas and other terrorist groups, for generally the same reason.  Allowing terrorists to kill your citizens and do nothing about it is not something any nation would do. Going on the analogy in the above paragraph, thats like letting the person who killed your family then go on to your relatives, and at the same time try to steal your home.  Im not sure which idea is more absurd.

This subject doesnt bear talking about, and especially doesnt need to be argued over by people on this forum, because nobody is right.  So just stop trying to beat each other over the head with your oppinion, nobody is going to listen to anybody else, just like Israel and Palestine.

Bah.