Iraqi Prisoners Shown Humiliated

[Mr. Lothario]

     How silly of me. For a moment there, I thought that smoothing the tension between the Fundamentalist States of America and the Muslim world would take priority over worrying about being reelected. I gotta remember--the future beyond the next four years doesn't matter to Bush.

[BFG]

lol yeah silly Loth. There were you thinking that the relationship between East and West has hit an all time world and that bridges desperately need to be built and communications re-established.... When all thats inportant is that That Chimp gets a chance to sit on the roost for a bit longer!

["Sixhits"]

As an update:

Shit really does roll downhill.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41341-2004May19.html

"SENIOR U.S. COMMANDERS in Iraq insist that they never approved harsh interrogation techniques for Iraqi prisoners. Yet those same commanders now acknowledge that abusive practices were employed against detainees all over Iraq -- not just at Abu Ghraib prison -- and in Afghanistan."

and

"Some of the methods that the commanders say were never sanctioned in Iraq -- and that, most experts believe, violate the Geneva Conventions -- were nevertheless listed on a sign posted at Abu Ghraib under the heading "Interrogation Rules of Engagement.""

and

"The Bush administration still tries to blame a few low-ranking reservists who served at Abu Ghraib. But a more convincing answer can be found in a memo submitted to President Bush by White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales in January 2002. In the memo, which was first disclosed by Newsweek magazine, Mr. Gonzales explained why he believed Mr. Bush should ignore State Department objections to his decision to exclude Afghanistan detainees from the Geneva Conventions. The presidential counsel derided the conventions as "quaint" and "obsolete" and claimed that setting them aside would, among other things, make it harder for prosecutors to charge Americans under U.S. law for alleged crimes against prisoners -- something he presented as a "positive." Such contempt for the rule of law pervaded his argument -- and was endorsed by Mr. Bush."




Oh, and the kicker?

"Mr. Gonzales did, however, point out several risks. Among them, he said, was the danger that "a determination that [Geneva] does not apply to al Qaeda and the Taliban could undermine U.S. military culture which emphasizes maintaining the highest standards of conduct in combat, and could introduce an element of uncertainty in the status of adversaries.""

[BTs_GhostSniper]

If torturing to death enemies of the United States saves just ONE American Soldier's life then I say torture those fuckers.

I volunteer to be the first one to start cutting off some fingers!

And you know what?  Afterwards, say I've saved some American lives by the information I've obtained from the enemy prisoners, and then the world decides that I've committed some kind of war crimes and should be punished, I will GLADLY take that punishment.  Because it is WORTH it.  Do you understand?  This is a fucking war we are fighting!

WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE?

Peace (after we have eliminated our enemies from the face of the earth by ANY means necessary).

-GhostSniper Out.

["Sixhits"]

Ghost:

The greatest strength of America has always been it's moral character.

Think about the ideals that America was founded on: of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Think of how Americans cherish our moral high ground.

And then think about what you said. That if torturing random ppl, because what we are doing is picking up random ppl, saves just one American life then it's worth it. And then think whether or not the founders would agree with you. Whether or not honest Americans would agree with you.

Btw, you and I both know you don't have to cut off fingers to get information out of ppl.

And have you considered what America becomes when we allow torture? When it is endorsed from the highest levels? When our leaders, who take us to war to protect our way of live corrupt our most cherished values? At some point the value of victory is non-existant - if we have to win it this way.

At the end it it all I don't want to live in another version of Nazi Germany, of Communist Russia, of Saddam's Iraq. Those regimes rationalized the evil they did. And what did America do to them? We killed them. Because evil is evil, Ghost, no matter who is commiting it.

Sounds like we're on the way to a pyrrhic victory - a moral pyrrhic victory. If what we are doing is what we mush then the victory is not worth winning, as it has cost us who we are.

[seth]

The greatest strength of America has always been it's moral character.

wrong, the greatest strenght of america always was the dollar.

Moral comes after business, didnt you learn that already ?

[BFG]

Somtimes i wish i had a bucket by my computer. So when i read things that i found so disgusting, so sickening, things that made me ashamed to be human, i could just stick my head in and chuck by guts up.

Ghost you destroy everything good that we think of America representing. Its people like you with those attitudes that turn everyone against the US, and more often for good reason.

What the fuck is the difference between an american life and any other life? Absolutly jack shit. one person has a US parsport and the us flag shoved up their ass, the other doesn't.

the greatest strenght of america always was the dollar.

["Sixhits"]

The greatest strength of America has always been it's moral character.

wrong, the greatest strenght of america always was the dollar.

Moral comes after business, didnt you learn that already ?

Opps, wrong.

Start from Day 1. What did the US have over everyone else? Moral crediblity.  Dude, the dollar didn't rock until the 20's. The 1920's. Before that it was all about the British pound.

ps. I actually believe GS has his heart in the right place. Which is why I argue with him.

[Blufire]

If torturing to death enemies of the United States saves just ONE American Soldier's life then I say torture those fuckers.

How does torturing to death a lone enemy private save American lives? If you're talking about information, there's not too much info a dead man can give you.

(after we have eliminated our enemies from the face of the earth by ANY means necessary).

So would you be in favor of bringing out nukes?

Just musings...

[BFG]

If torturing to death enemies of the United States saves just ONE American Soldier's life then I say torture those fuckers.

I volunteer to be the first one to start cutting off some fingers!

And you know what?? Afterwards, say I've saved some American lives by the information I've obtained from the enemy prisoners, and then the world decides that I've committed some kind of war crimes and should be punished, I will GLADLY take that punishment.? Because it is WORTH it.? Do you understand?? This is a fucking war we are fighting!

WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE?

Peace (after we have eliminated our enemies from the face of the earth by ANY means necessary).

Jesus Fucking christ you are a bloody sick bastard somtimes

[The Golden Shark]

you know, although im sure that GS knows 7 forms of unarmed leathal combat and all that shit. i was there when he said what he just wrote, i would--with out a doubt, without one word said-- sock him in the mother fucking face.--- i don't even care if i got my ass beat, or i was killed.

i hope that when all the arabs and such get power, when they get nukes. i hope you get the worst form of radiation poison, lung cancer, all that bullshit, i am so pissed off i cant mother fucking think straight.

you are a scum bag.
i don't care what you've "done" for your country.
what military services you've been in.
i don't fucking care what wars or fighting you've been in.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS "UN-AMERICAN"
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS "UN-PATRIOTIC"

just die, the whole world would be better off without you.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

you know, although im sure that GS knows 7 forms of unarmed leathal combat and all that shit. i was there when he said what he just wrote, i would--with out a doubt, without one word said-- sock him in the mother fucking face.--- i don't even care if i got my ass beat, or i was killed.
i hope that when all the arabs and such get power, when they get nukes. i hope you get the worst form of radiation poison, lung cancer, all that bullshit, i am so pissed off i cant mother fucking think straight.
you are a scum bag.
i don't care what you've "done" for your country.
what military services you've been in.
i don't fucking care what wars or fighting you've been in.
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS "UN-AMERICAN"
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS "UN-PATRIOTIC"
just die, the whole world would be better off without you.

Look, when you've seen as many of your friends come home in wooden boxes as I have, you might just feel differently.

I have now lost more than half of my entire Ranger class.  OVER HALF!  1 in 2 of all of my friends are DEAD.  If torturing one of those people that had information could have saved just ONE of them, It would not bother me in the slightest.

Sorry if that makes me somewhat bitter.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

[The Golden Shark]

Ghost, i appologize for my words in that post. it seems to me that with all of your first hand combat experience, and losses might make you more enlightened, and almost anti-war. i understand that the losses of your friends would make you bitter-- and now enlightened of this fact inspires my appology-- but you must realize that war, won't make war go away. war, and anger won't stop suicide bombing and anger. Someone has to be the bigger man, suck up their grief and anger, and just say no more. don't let the deaths of your friends be forgotten through more sensless killing. don't let them just become a statistic. People with first hand experience and passion, such as yourself, have the most influence on the public. Be the one who makes a difference through words and intellect, not killing and violence.

P.s. i am sorry for you and your friends.

[alaric]

Ghostsniper, I understand why you feel the way you do. If I had lost even one friend in such a way, I'm absolutely positive I'd feel the same way. But it's overcoming that emotion, that animal instinct to strike back that was the core of Jesus' teachings. The ends sometimes don't justify the means. This is one of those times.

I believe that above all else, humans were put on this earth for one reason: to take care of each other. Part of being human is seeing past the hate, seeing past the pain. Sacrificing our humanity to save lives is too high a price to pay. We've come too far as a society, too many lives have already been given up, to let us slip back to our most primal of instincts.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a pacifist. It's just that I firmly believe that force should only be used as a last resort. That only solutions that produce long term peace should be enacted.

Though that is not the only reason that kind of torture is wrong. It's very counterproductive in the long term. Yes, we will save some lives in the immediate future, but long term those kind of actions only create more enemies who will kill more of our friends.

I'd like to end this speech with a quote. Ten points to the guy who can guess who said it.

"The greatest changes the world has ever seen came not by force of arms, but by open arms."

[Ace]

Damnit Shark, don't apologize to GS. You were right. What he said was un-American and unpatriotic. The stupid fuck obviously doesn't realize what our country stands for. Props to you for calling him on it. As usual, he went and tried to play on your emotions to distract everyone from his stupidity.

GS, don't cheapen the deaths of your fellow soldiers by using that as an excuse for your ignorant comments. That's straight up no class.

[BFG]

You join the Army for only a few reasons. And for someone to be unaware of the dangers is unbelievable. The fact your friends died of course is terrible. However they were doing their jobs, and they chose to be doing what they did. You are in a situation of "them or us" and you chose that situation. You cannot jusity what you said simply becasue fellow soldiers along side you died.


Shark i think you were spot on on what you said.

[alaric]

And the hits just keep on coming.

Now it's turning out that despite our best efforts, the brutal torture of those Iraqi prisoners yielded very little useful information. Who would have thought torture wasn't an effective interrogation method?

Prison Interrogations in Iraq Seen as Yielding Little Data on Rebels

["Sixhits"]

I guess they forgot that when you threaten someone you're more likely to get the answer you want than the truth.

Wicked Witch:
"I'm going to let this dog bite off your balls. Who's the fairest one of all?

Iraqi Civilian:
"You are! You are!"

[BTs_GhostSniper]

And the hits just keep on coming.
Now it's turning out that despite our best efforts, the brutal torture of those Iraqi prisoners yielded very little useful information. Who would have thought torture wasn't an effective interrogation method?

That's because we were not TORTURING them!  Don't you dare sit there and say that those Iraqi's have been TORTURED.  Humiliated maybe.  But Tortured?  Give me a break.  If you want to know what torture is, you need to go talk to one of the American Soldiers that was a POW of the North Vietnamese, or of the Japanese during WWII.  Those men can tell you something about what torture is.

By the way, the reason we havn't gotten good intelligence out of those prisoners is because we WERE NOT torturing them!  We are just sitting there asking them questions and when they don't respond that's about it.  Let me at those fuckers and I bet you any amount of money I can get information out of them.

Funny, but the only country on the planet that even TRIES to follow the Geneva Convention is the United States.

[Abe 2.0]

Good Article.
"Most of our useful intelligence came from battlefield interrogations, and at the battalion, brigade and division-level interrogation facilities," said a senior military intelligence officer who served in Iraq. Once prisoners were sent on to Abu Ghraib, the officer said, "we got very little feedback."

I wonder what idiot thought it would be a good idea to use Saddam's old torture fortress as an interrogation center...?
We should be trying to bribe people to get information, instead of detaining and interrogating them...that would be a lot more american, imo.