Iraqi Prisoners Shown Humiliated

[BFG]

mac gaming made me this way

Then please please, go out side! heh go meet some different people, go get a pizza and sit in the park... and then go to the councilor

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

I love the hypocrisy of the other arab nations speaking out against these photos...amazing.

[BFG]

I love the hypocrisy of the other arab nations speaking out against these photos...amazing.

Be it on two very very different scales, I love the hypocrisy of the Us and Coalition speaking out against Saddamn Hussain and his treatment of the Iraqi people... amazing.

[alaric]

The hypocrisy on the part of the US and coalition is limited to the very few who committed these terrible acts. The United States government as a whole, does not support this.

The hypocrisy on the part of the other arab nations is an institutionalized hypocrisy. Their governments sanction the use of torture. That is very different from having a rouge group of soldiers act independent of the command structure.

["Sixhits"]

The hypocrisy on the part of the US and coalition is limited to the very few who committed these terrible acts. The United States government as a whole, does not support this.

The hypocrisy on the part of the other arab nations is an institutionalized hypocrisy. Their governments sanction the use of torture. That is very different from having a rouge group of soldiers act independent of the command structure.

"... is limited to the very few who committed these terrible acts."

"The United States government as a whole, does not support this."

"The hypocrisy on the part of the other arab nations is an institutionalized hypocrisy."

You sound like just another appologist. The reality is a bitter pill indeed.

Said by someone better spoken than me:

>>>
The Administration, and particularly Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, have been cavalier about American obligations under international law, including the Geneva Convention. International law and transparency, we are told, are unnecessary because, unlike all of the other countries in the world, we are Americans, and we naturally believe in human rights and the rule of law. We need no special incentives to be good. But if history teaches us anything, it is that when governments, no matter how well they think of themselves, decide to free themselves from constraints, they become unconstrained, and when they refuse to make themselves accountable, they abuse their power. The only thing that has been lacking until now has been the proof of what everyone should already have known: that unchecked power leads to hubris, hubris leads to corruption, and corruption leads to violations of human rights.

Americans are proud of their devotion to democracy, human rights, and the rule of law. But these cannot exist without institutional preconditions: they cannot exist if government officials insist on complete secrecy, mock international covenants, and refuse to allow their actions to be tested and constrained by law.

This Administration wanted secrecy. It wanted to be free of legal constraint. It wanted to do whatever it wanted whenever it wanted without ever having to be called to account for it.

Now it is reaping what it has sown.
<<<
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2004_05_02_balkin_archive.html#108381838979787981


OH!

And the red cross warned the US monthes ago.

>>>
However, the International Committee of the Red Cross said it warned American officials of prisoner abuse in Iraq more than a year ago and that the mistreatment was "not individual acts."


"There was a pattern and a system," Pierre Kraehenbuehl, the ICRC's director of operations, said in Geneva. Some of the actions were "tantamount to torture," he said. The ICRC findings were "discussed at different moments between March and November 2003, either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions," Kraehenbuehl said.
<<<

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/05/07/red_cross_abuse/index.html

[alaric]

I may be many things, sixhits, but I AM NOT AN APOLOGIST FOR RUMSFIELD. And honestly, I'm very offended that you'd think of me that way. I'd like nothing more than to see him, general meyers, and half the bush administration thrown out of office for this. But it's looking like I'll have to settle for Rumsfield. The rest can come in November.

Don't get me wrong, I AM VERY UPSET ABOUT THIS. I feel personally shamed by the actions of those soldiers. But at least I can think clearly enough to know that the actions of the few DO NOT represent the actions and beliefs of the many.

Yes, there was an effort to cover this up and I do believe it ran strait up the chain of command all the way to Rumsfield himself. But NO, that does not mean the US, the Army, or any other branch of our military has institutionalized torture. To do that is to do a serious disservice to the millions of men and women in our armed forces. It also makes quite clear your political blindness and your inability to see past the partisian bullshit.

Yes, serious crimes were commited. Yes, something will be done about it. Yes, I demand that those responsible both for the acts and for the coverup should be held up for the world to see and punished as severely as the law allows. But, NO, I will not sully the name of the other hard working men and women of our armed services who have done nothing wrong and continue to serve with distinction today.

["Sixhits"]

I may be many things, sixhits, but I AM NOT AN APOLOGIST FOR RUMSFIELD. And honestly, I'm very offended that you'd think of me that way.

I clearly misinterpreted what you wrote and jumped all over you for it.

The long and the short of it is, I appologize .

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I do not believe that any of these superiors should be punished for what a few soldiers did.  I am really tired of people saying Rumsfeld and other military leaders should resign or be fired from their positions.  That doesn't solve anything.  I was actually in the military, and one thing that still stands in my mind is the Khobar Towers that were bombed in 1996.  Brigadier General Terryl Schwalier was fired in the incident as a scapegoat for the Clinton Administration.  I personally know Gen Schwalier and you will not meet a better leader.  Instead of blaming the bombing on Terrorists, Clinton blamed it on Gen Schwalier!  So he was rotated back to the U.S. Immediately and was almost brought up on Court-Martial charges!  They gave him an early retirement in 1997 instead, after Clinton had saved face for himself.  This is not how to run things.  You don't go around firing the commanders in charge for an action that they didn't even know about until AFTER it happened!  As for covering it up, I actually agree that something like this should be covered up lest the other countries in the Middle East find out about it and get in an uproar (which, low and behold, is exactly what happened).  Sure it was wrong.  And trust me, these guys would have been punished without all the media reporting of the incident.  But now it is just a big mess and the way to solve it is NOT to start firing good commanders and demanding resignations.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

[alaric]

Apology Accepted, sixhits.

I've also had contact with the US Military, GS, and the one thing I walked away with was the sense of responsibility commanders had for their troops. Every person I talked to earnestly felt like they were responsible for the actions of the people working under them. This is because they are the commander, they are the one in charge and should know if their troops are not following orders or acting in a way unbecoming a soldier.

I see your point about not firing random leaders, however, I do believe General Meyers and Rumsfield have made some errors regarding this situation that call for their resignations.

Meyers asked CBS to suppress the photos they had of the Iraqi torture victims. In my mind no US military officer has any right to ask CBS to suppress or even delay the publication of such information for reason, let alone for the obviously political ones shown here.

Rumsfield's major error was lack of communication and hesitation during the initial phases of the investigation. He himself has admitted as much. He knew what was going on but informed neither the President nor the Congress, even when he knew that media publication of the photos was imminent. He testified before congress 3 hours before the 60 minutes II presentation of the photos but said nothing about them. Again, I believe he kept quiet for political reasons.

I also believe that the situation in Iraq since the initial phase of the war has been a comedy of errors. The taking of Iraq was a display of the skill and expertise of our soldiers but nearly every step since then has been a mistake. The reconstruction of Iraq as it is today is nearly a complete failure. For this, I can hold no one else responsible other than Meyers and Rumsfield. They are the ones making the decisions about the occupation. They are the ones to hold responsible for it's failure.

That failure, coupled with this latest failure, is enough to make me call for their resignations. Let me put it another way. Were I in Rumsfield's shoes today, my conscience would force my resignation.

As for any other officers/soldiers involved, I have faith in the chain of command to seek them out and take appropriate action, especially now that there is so much media attention.

[c| Dr. NO]

As sick as this is, it does not surprise me.  I've heard stories about U.S. solders doing these kinds of things in past wars/conflicts.  Making vids and passing them around to fellow solders, this time they got busted, GOOD!  There is over 2,000,000 untried prisoners being held by the U.S. as we type...this could give the red cross the go ahead on untold stories.

This not only hurts the solders in Iraq, but us all.  We went in to their country to give them liberty and JUSTIS.  I for one have seen non of this, they still have no power, water, let alone order.  It has made Iraq look like Saddam never left.  It's bad enough we lied to get in there or that the U.S. and British government gave Saddam Iraq through funding and intelligence. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's are dead men, woman, and children. But we don't hear about that.  Not even the 11,000+ U.S. wounded solders.  Trust me, their keeping a lot more then some sick prison pictures from us.

Doc

[Whoa...]

WHOA WHOA WHOA.....

Iraq is better off then it used to be. Do a little more research before you come in here posting your own facts.

[BFG]

Iraq is better off then it used to be. Do a little more research before you come in here posting your own facts.

"whoa".. firstly people won't listen to you unless u register, or at least post under your registerd name. Secondly, that isn't the same view that an increasingly large percentage of the iraqi population have. I agree iraq SHOULD be better off, and in some ways yes it is, but right now, the country is more unstable, more dangerous, and has more problems going for it than it did before the invasion. ANd that shouldn't have been the case. IF the coalition had done things properly it would be in a much much better state.

GS i agree with you that just court-marshaling a general, or getting a politician to resign isn't the solution. The root of the problem has to be addressed, and that root seems to be the behavior of some members of the army, and their attitude towards the iraqi people, well that is a guess so all we can say is that there are soldiers who should not be soldiers.

What i do find worrying however is the fact that the Red Cross visited this prison just under a year ago and had grave concerns which it informed the us administration of. These warnings were ignored and covered up. That suggests problems much much higher up the power tree - and Rumsfelts name has come up several times.

[alaric]

Exactly my point BFG, and the only way to deal with this kind of situation is to take extreme action. Rip it out by the roots. Treat it like cancer. You have to cut out the offending tissue to save the overall organism.

Rip out the people involved in the acts and subsequent coverup and rebuild.

[BFG]

Exactly. There is no point in simply skimming the surface and effectivly tryig to simply wash over the problem. Even if it creats a big nasty hole u gotta rip out the roots of the problem - or it simply comes back to haunt you. On the surface we have a situation where soldiers have crossed the line - crossed it beyond comprehension. But why have they done this. Where has the system failed? Why were there soldiers with this sort of mentality etc... but more inportantly how did this happen, why did the commanding officers let this happen, and why the hell have they been trying to cover it up!

... apppartnly there are two cases of murder of iraqi prisoners. The soldiers were kicked out the army - however no further action was taken against them... NO further action? who the hell are they kidding? so if im a soldier i can get away with murdering a prisoner and just get chucked out the army? FOR MURDER?

And yet there are hundreds of 'pow's, who are clasified as 'illigal combatants' and are not even given the right of a trial, or to even be told for what crimes they are being held for!!!

A little unjust perhaps?

[c| PsyOps]

Haven't any of you seen the journalist who broke this story on the major network news programs claiming that the CIA and US Army Human Exploitation Division is behind these interrogation techniques?  He has promised to reveal more proof of the depths of involvement in this operation.  

[BFG]

NO but i would sure as hell like to read it...

Mean while over hear investigations are still going on... and they really can't work out if the photo's of the Bristish soldiers are real or faked.

[cO.gabe]

And yet there are hundreds of 'pow's, who are clasified as 'illigal combatants' and are not even given the right of a trial, or to even be told for what crimes they are being held for!!!

A little unjust perhaps?

I actually came across this when i was doing a research project involving political cartoons recently.

[a_Dingo]

Three comments.

First, I guess it now becomes obvious why the USA will not sign a treaty that submits the USA to the rule of the International Court.

Second, One or two problems of this nature could be understood as the actions of individuals. The number now shown points to obvious systematic breakdown of the chain of command, or condoning of the actions by that chain of command. In either case there is a problem that the commander in chief sould be accountable for.

Finally, anyone who condones the torture or treatment of any human in this way, or attempts to justify it because the previous regime did worse, well I don't really need to pass comment on them, they have done so themselves.

[BFG]

Thats what really annoyed me with bush's televised 'apology'. He spent all the time saying how terrible the regime was and how they had done this sort of stuff and that well mistakes happen in democracy but don't forget that saddamn did this and this is what he did to u and we are helping you and this happended before etc.....

Not once did he actually say "I am extreamly sorry, what has happend is horrific and there can be no excuse"

- he just mixed it up into a propaganda gurge. No wonder people spat it back in his monky ass face.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Not once did he actually say "I am extreamly sorry, what has happend is horrific and there can be no excuse"

There is a reason you will never hear President Bush apologize in this way.  If he did so, that little clip of video would be the hallmark of the Democrats new campaign ad.  For that very reason alone, you will never hear the President apologize.