83 soldiers dead in 12 days

[*NADS Lo$eMoney]

The world governing body has given the Israelies the right to the land. Sucks for the palestinians but hey, shit happens.

And what, the palestians are just supposed to lay down and die?  Or leave? Or give up?  No they will fight back, and does anyone find that surprising?  How else are the palestians supposed to combat the Israelis?  Head on when the Israelis have one of the most advanced militarys in the world?  Nope that is like suicide. The only way they can fight back is by using "terorism" and innocent people will die.  Sucks for the Israelis but hey, shit happens.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

The world governing body has given the Israelies the right to the land. Sucks for the palestinians but hey, shit happens.

And what, the palestians are just supposed to lay down and die?  Or leave? Or give up?  No they will fight back, and does anyone find that surprising?  How else are the palestians supposed to combat the Israelis?  Head on when the Israelis have one of the most advanced militarys in the world?  Nope that is like suicide. The only way they can fight back is by using "terorism" and innocent people will die.  Sucks for the Israelis but hey, shit happens.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were Anti-Semitic.  Sounds like Hitler could have used you back in the 40's to help out his cause.  I hear there are some Neo-Nazi organizations that could use your help.  Why don't you go join one of them?

[Ssickboy]

The world governing body has given the Israelies the right to the land. Sucks for the palestinians but hey, shit happens.

And what, the palestians are just supposed to lay down and die?  Or leave? Or give up?  No they will fight back, and does anyone find that surprising?  How else are the palestians supposed to combat the Israelis?  Head on when the Israelis have one of the most advanced militarys in the world?  Nope that is like suicide. The only way they can fight back is by using "terorism" and innocent people will die.  Sucks for the Israelis but hey, shit happens.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were Anti-Semitic.  Sounds like Hitler could have used you back in the 40's to help out his cause.  I hear there are some Neo-Nazi organizations that could use your help.  Why don't you go join one of them?

Anything written that's not in favor of Israel is anti-semitic?  And it must be un-patriotic too.  So what does that make him?  A terrorist?  AND... GS the anti-semitism laid the discrimination against Jews, but it was the brutal fascism that carried out the executions.  And you my friend win in the fascsist contest.  


- glad you enjoyed the cat story, i enjoyed writing that too.  

[BFG]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were Anti-Semitic.? Sounds like Hitler could have used you back in the 40's to help out his cause.? I hear there are some Neo-Nazi organizations that could use your help.? Why don't you go join one of them?

IT was only a matter of time wasn't it... It had to be said by someone... Its the imfamouse "if you don't agree with what israel is doing then your are Anti-semitic" .. yada yada yada you love hitler etc..

You must be fucking kidding GS. Its funny every time i look at it the way Israel is treating the palistinians looks more and more like how the Nazi's treated the jews. Gaza is being turned into a fucking open prision. Israel still seems to believe it has the right to murder people in order to 'defend itself'.  This bloody under siege mentality that is going on with 'poor israel' under attack from the world and desperatly tryinig to defend itself from the Anti-semetic world is bloody bullshit

And of course it must be noted that it wasn't just the jewish population who were targeted. The Gypsys were all but wiped out, anyone with mental disorders, the homeless etc, it goes on and on.

Ssickboy... said it before and will say it again. That bloody cat inalergy was bloody perfect.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

lol....I see my sarcasm was lost on you guys.

[alaric]

The world governing body has given the Israelies the right to the land. Sucks for the palestinians but hey, shit happens.

And what, the palestians are just supposed to lay down and die?  Or leave? Or give up?  No they will fight back, and does anyone find that surprising?  How else are the palestians supposed to combat the Israelis?  Head on when the Israelis have one of the most advanced militarys in the world?  Nope that is like suicide. The only way they can fight back is by using "terorism" and innocent people will die.  Sucks for the Israelis but hey, shit happens.

I'll never understand people who support the murder of innocent civilians. What happened to peaceful protest? If the palestinians laid down their arms and marched in the streets singing Kum-Bay-Ah the UN would shit a solution so fast it'd make your head spin.

But peace is not what either side wants. Peace is what the innocent israelis civilians want. Peace is what the innocent palestinian civilians want. Their leaders want war. Their leaders can't see past the barrels of their own guns. And their own people pay for it every day.

Killing has become a way of life for groups like Hamas and Al Aqusa Martyr's brigade. They know no other way. Does it make it right? HELL NO. Attacks on Israeli citizens does give Israel the right to do anything in it's power to stop the attacks, however. The whole thing is a goddamned tragedy, but right now the Israelis are in the right. They are merely defending themselves.

Let me put it simply. One small group of palestinians is bent on wholesale murder of innocent civilians. The Israelis only want to stop that from happening. Who is wrong here?



One other note: To say you support the intentional murder of innocent civilians lowers you to a level I can't imagine being at. You preach peace but when it comes down to it, you're willing to murder women and children in cold blood to get your way. What does that say about your humanity?

[seth]

Hamas will keep carrying out attacks against innocent civilians until Israel is no more.  Conversely, Israel does not want the Palistinians gone.

dont you find it ironic that Hamas was created by Israelis to fight Arafat's OLP ?

[seth]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were Anti-Semitic.  

see that the big problem with saying anything against Israel: you're antisemitic if you do.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

One other note: To say you support the intentional murder of innocent civilians lowers you to a level I can't imagine being at. You preach peace but when it comes down to it, you're willing to murder women and children in cold blood to get your way. What does that say about your humanity?

And when the U.S. kills civilians it's called liberation.

[Ssickboy]

Let me put it simply. One small group of palestinians is bent on wholesale murder of innocent civilians. The Israelis only want to stop that from happening. Who is wrong here?

You forgot to mention the settlements that Israel wants.  I'm not sure what the current statis is on that, but last I heard or read, Israel wasn't willing to give anything up.  Their reasoning?  mixed.  but to have that extra space for defense is understandable yet not available, they can't keep sqeazing palestinians further out.  What's missing is a neutrality.  The settlements cannot stay, they're not right.  israel needs to learn to live without them.  Meanwhile Palestine is all fucked up.  Some sort of nuetral force needs to maintain those borders until things settle down, and palestine re-developed.  that's my solution.  close the border and bring relief.  

btw Kerry is a huge supporter of the Israeli cause.  I don't get it.  

[alaric]

And when the U.S. kills civilians it's called liberation.

Ah, I knew someone would illustrate my point for me, it was only a matter of time....

Ok, what you're forgetting here is the concept of "intent". Bucc has talked about this before but apparently you skipped class that day so here's a quick refresher.



in?tent ?Pronunciation Key??(n-tnt)
n.

1. Something that is intended; an aim or purpose.

2. Law. The state of one's mind at the time one carries out an action.

3. Meaning; purport.


Now, to answer your question. The difference between when terrorists kill civilians and when the US kills civilians, it's a simple matter of intent. The US does not want to kill any innocent civilians. It is not their intent to do so. Any deaths that happen as a result of US actions are accidental, or unintentional. The terrorists knowingly target innocent civilians for the express purpose of causing terror in the general population. They kill innocent civilians for the purpose of scaring other innocent civilians into giving in to their demands.

Here's another scenario:

Let's say that there's a man driving around town shooting random people demanding for his buddy to be released from jail. This man is clearly in the wrong isn't he? Ok, now let's say that the police are shooting at the man trying to stop him from killing anybody else and that some innocent bystanders are hit during the exchange of gunfire. It was not the cops intent to shoot the bystanders but it happened. It's tragic, but it's not the same as intending to kill someone.

You can see how the cops are justified in their actions and the random shooter is not, correct? No matter what the reason for his buddy's being in jail, he has no right to shoot random people.

I cannot make this difference any more clear. If you still fail to understand this basic concept you'll have to ask someone else to explain it to you, you're beyond my help...

[Ssickboy]

yeah yeah heard got it, yada yada.  but niether are a completely justified. thankfully cops are not shooting innocent bystanders at alarming levels.  Your point solves very little.  There are still 10,000 Iraqi's dead, and almost 700 americans in a war that was unneccarily brutal, and seemingly far from over.  This is because of an illogical wreckless wielding of power.  I'm all for making the world a better place for everyone, safe and secure.  But this is not the way.  The US created the UN way back when we as a government had a different mind set and better understanding of how to approach living within a worldwide community and making it a better place.   Wiping out and dis-regarding the rest of the world is one way to do it, and thats the path we're on.  I don't see us winning it.  

["Sixhits"]

I don't remember how we got into a debate over the legitamacy of Isreal's occupation of Palestian lands. At the end of the day that occupation, whether one supports it or not, is the root of much of America's problems in the Middle East. Some would argue it is the axis on which all our problems in the Middle East spin, from terrorism to fundamentalism to oil price fluctuation.

The truth is both sides have legit claims. Both sides have commited unspeakable acts. And neither side is truly willing to explore a compromise.

I actually find much to hope for in Sharon's newest proposal.

However, his actions for the past years have shown him to be as much of a militant, brutal murder as any Hamas leader - so I take his olive leaf proposal with a grain of salt. The war he fights in one not based in thoughtful policy, but in revenge.

Sharon's proposed withdrawl from the Isreali settlements and recognising of a Palestinian state has two glaring afronts to Palestinians: one, it denies them the Right of Return or due compensation (this is in reference to the creation of the state of Isreal, when people of Palestine were thrown out of their homes), and two, it lets Isreal annex the West Bank. Sharon's deal, for all the good stuff it offers the Palestinians, has more "stick" than "carrot": it's a non-starter.

This proposal comes from the mouth of a man who Palestinians consider to be a war criminal. For them, it's promises written in sand. And Bush backs it. This leads me to a greater observation about today's American policy, one which is broad and grand in scale.

I don't think of the Isrealis as killing civilians: I just think they are fighting a war. I begrudge them not those deaths, just like I don't view American soldiers in Iraq as murders for doing what they are there to do.

I just think those that sent them there are ultimately doing us a disservice.

In Isreal, by fighting like for like: you kill our people, we assasinate your leaders, some of whom just happen to be the holiest men among you, and in doing so we will not trouble ourselves too much over civilians.

In Iraq, by have no idea what to do with a conquered nation.

With Isreal and Palestine, America has now VERY clearly picked our pony. Stack that with our clumsy handling of the lead up to Iraq, the unilateral with us or against us approach to the worldwide problem of terrorism, the lumping of disperate nations into one muddy concept - the axis of evil; the failure to properly plan for and execute policy after war in Iraq and in the occupation of Afghanistan, the misleading of the general public about the motivations for war, the misuse of appropriated funds, the deliberate alienation of the UN. The list goes on and on but ultimately ties straight back into the same shit we've seen for years in Isreal: we, like Sharon, refuse to provide real solutions, only violent responses.

With Bush formally picking sides we can expect the war between Isreal and Palestine to expand to include us. Such proclaimations. after years of tacit support politically and open military support will serve to unite our oppenents. The leader of Egypt announced today his impression that Arabs hate Americans more now than ever before: this is not an improvement. And this cannot be chalked up to us supposedly winning the war on terrorism or that Arabs hate freedom more than ever or some other bullshit. We have earned that hatred and deserve it.

The anger of our enemies, indeed of those who are not even our enemies, is not due to them hating us as a people persay, but due to how we as a people represent ourselves: as a war-crazy cowboy nation disinterested in the opinions of others, willing to ignore international opinion at random, willing to support rogue nations and dictators on one hand and invade some with the other, spout rhetoric of freedom but practice tryanny, and use our immense force as we choose rather than as we should.

Americans are the biggest hypocrites in the world and the world knows it. Our current leadership has made a mockery of us instead of building a worldwide consenus on the issues of our day. Worse, many peoples want to make us suffer for our actions, as they themselves have suffered. Do you think the average Iraqi's view on America has been improved? Do you think nations will be more or less inclined to treat with us? Do you think the legitamacy of our interests and concerns are understood or scoffed at? Do we have any honest allies left, or are all only mercenary countries, ones who cut loose when we need them most? Do you think our proclaimations on freedom convince anyone?

And for what? Why do we support the dictators in Bruma, in Pakistan, but invade Iraq? While the Palestinians and Isrealis murder each other we declare our support for an Isreali victory. While Pakistan arms North Korea and Iran with nukes we invade Iraq. We lump terrorism with anything we disagree with. As more and more Iraqi's die in the fighting around Iraq we tell the world they are a grateful populace eager for liberation. Why do we sit on our haunches while North Korea arms itself and flaunts treaties and broken promises? We are not safer. We are not better off. We are over exposed in parts of the world were we are at greatest risk. True enemies like North Korea are free to do as they will, and thus the world can see our cowboy bravado is bullshit. Even our snubing of the UN rings hollow since we've begged them to help guide a transfer of power in Iraq, a tranfer we have no clue how to do ourselves.

Instead of proving to the world how potent American might is we have revealed our own impotency. The bad will Bush's lies and bravado has wraught will take years to overcome. And the root of so much anger, the Palestinian question and Sharon's proposed solution, will be remembered as an American folly.

American policy and rhetoric is almost comical in its absurdity. It's time for a change.

[alaric]

yeah yeah heard got it, yada yada.  but niether are a completely justified. thankfully cops are not shooting innocent bystanders at alarming levels.  Your point solves very little.  There are still 10,000 Iraqi's dead, and almost 700 americans in a war that was unneccarily brutal, and seemingly far from over.  This is because of an illogical wreckless wielding of power.  I'm all for making the world a better place for everyone, safe and secure.  But this is not the way.  The US created the UN way back when we as a government had a different mind set and better understanding of how to approach living within a worldwide community and making it a better place.   Wiping out and dis-regarding the rest of the world is one way to do it, and thats the path we're on.  I don't see us winning it.  

Oh, I agree totally. We should never have gone to Iraq. Certainly not at the time we did and we're doing a damn fine job fucking up the "reconstruction" as well.

My point was related more to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but it applies elsewhere too. It's not that neither side is completly justified, it's that it's NEVER ok to target innocent civilians, no matter the circumstance.

["Sixhits"]

My point was related more to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but it applies elsewhere too. It's not that neither side is completly justified, it's that it's NEVER ok to target innocent civilians, no matter the circumstance.

Part of me wants to point you to the fire bombing of Japan during World War II. Or the bombing of cities - civilians - in Germany in that same war.

Innocence is a matter of one's perspective on the circumstance.

For example, I would not consider bin Laden's family innocent.

It was Curtis LeMay, no pussy-footed liberal, who once said, "If the other guys had won the war, I'd have been prosecuted as a war crimminal.' LeMay was the commander of US Pacific bomber forces and developed the strategy of fire bombing Japan's wooden cities. The casualties were horendous.

And you know what? I'm glad he did it. I'm glad we nuked them, too. We won in large part because  of those actions, those murdering of civilians.

And so I disagree that killing civilians is always the wrong thing to do. Sometimes it is  purposeful, if never moral. But what war is moral? In that sense I understand why people turn to terrorism and the killing of civilians. And when it's American civilizans it makes me convinced they must burn, balls cut off, sacks stuffed in their mouths, as someone like Ghost Sniper uses a red-hot bowie knife to one by one cut their tendons, bleeding them to death.

My troubles with Bush is that the battles he fought have gained us nothing (much the same can be said of Sharon, the father of Isreali fascism). Afghanistan grows opium and finances terrorism still. Bin Laden breaths and his organization is just as deadly as three years ago. Just what the fuck is Bush doing?  Iraq is a sad distraction from the fight we must fight. Thus the costs on both sides are wasted. We've gained nothing from invading Iraq that we couldn't have gotten elsewise. Worse, we've sacrificed so much; politically, militarily, monetarily, and in good will. How has this help us in the essential conflcit of our time, the war on terrorism? Well, it gives terrorists lots of easy, juicy targets.

And as we spend money and blood in the sands of a worthless nation, our home is left doors open, waiting for the next strike to come.  

[Cossack]

First I am going to make this jam packed statement: "Those Palestinians that suicide bomb IDF soldiers are not terrorist but patriots and freedom fighters." Israel was given to the Israelis by a foreign source. Should we let the UN make Washington give Texas back to the Mexicans because they were there before the Anglo-Americans? Who is the UN in the first place to enforce the creation of such an ambomination like Israel is. Sounds to me like World Government where all nations are inferior and must sacrifice sovreignty. Maybe I am just some Russian nutcase, but I would rather die fighting than live in a world where the UN is above all nations.

[Ssickboy]

it was scary enough to live in a perfectly free texas,  it would a nightmare to witness texas freedom fighters...  Oh wait,  HAHA! I am in this nightmare.  omg, how'd that psycho get in office!?

I hear ya Alaric,  I've read through bucc making the same points, and it's frustrating.  The point made breaks down like this: X is bad, but Y is Y and not X.... and thats where it's left, leaving this spin that makes Y sound ok.  I think sixhits lays out a interesting take on it.

X, Y, and Z's, they're all bad.  We need to get back to the A, B, C's

[alaric]

First I am going to make this jam packed statement: "Those Palestinians that suicide bomb IDF soldiers are not terrorist but patriots and freedom fighters."

And if all they did was bomb IDF soldiers I would agree with you. Bombing cafes and nightclubs is not the same as bombing uniformed personnel of government.


Sixhits, yeah I see your point. And I too agree with the firebombings and nukings of Japan. It was nasty shit, but it had to be done to save lives, both Japanese and American.

I think that's the real difference here, once again. I believe we did that to the Japanese with the overall intent of saving lives. I don't think the same can be said for the terrorists.

[Cossack]

So Israel responds by rocketing civilian neighborhoods that are around a suspected terrorist, and then they bulldoze entire neighborhood of Palestinians? Sounds like they are doing a good job defending themselves by destroying the Palestinians whole infastructure.

[Ssickboy]

Doesn't McNamara comment on the firebombings directly in the movie "fog of war."  If I remember correctly, he takes a some of the blame and resents the whole act among many other moments.  Matter of fact his participation in the movie reminds me a lot of all the books coming out trying to get the record straight, specifically to make a point in reaction to our current policies.  sorry off topic, and in response to those who say people like Richard Clarke are all about profit.  

ok found a link. check it out, click on "1945."  http://www.sonyclassics.com/fogofwar/indexFlash.html

good site to preview the film.  Also click on "synopsis" and scroll down a little to the 2nd point.  It has more about the fire bombing.