83 soldiers dead in 12 days

[Postal Worker]

Ugh, I hate how you all bring politics into this and complain about soldiers deaths.  War is terrible...war isn't something that we should all want to experience...but people who JOIN the military...(no they aren't drafted)...know what the hell they're getting themseleves in to.  If not...well...surprise surprise.  You're a soldier.  You should know what it is.  Im not saying soldiers are expendable but quit complaining about it.  They are serving their country the way so many soldiers from all other countries have done for thousands of years.  And Bush isn't sending these guys to their deaths.  He isn't the only one saying "OK lets attack this town here and bomb these guys over here and let me fly a jet over there."  Theres a reason why there is a separation of powers in the Gov't, kiddos.  Oh and by the way...all of you who say "I can't stand the government!  It sucks!" etc and etc...go fuck yourselves, Ok?  The only reason you're able to say that shit is because of the govenment, thanks.  How about you show a little support instead of being a big pussy and bitching about everything.  Thank god that you don't live in some of these other shithole countries who are a LOT worse off than us.  Ugh...whatever...Im done.  And Im sure I'll get some irate jackass to reply to this and in advance...go fuck yourself.  

Chillin the Most,
Chad
- *DAMN Postal Worker -

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Ugh, I hate how you all bring politics into this and complain about soldiers deaths.  War is terrible...war isn't something that we should all want to experience...but people who JOIN the military...(no they aren't drafted)...know what the hell they're getting themseleves in to.  If not...well...surprise surprise.  You're a soldier.  You should know what it is.  Im not saying soldiers are expendable but quit complaining about it.  They are serving their country the way so many soldiers from all other countries have done for thousands of years.  And Bush isn't sending these guys to their deaths.  He isn't the only one saying "OK lets attack this town here and bomb these guys over here and let me fly a jet over there."  Theres a reason why there is a separation of powers in the Gov't, kiddos.  Oh and by the way...all of you who say "I can't stand the government!  It sucks!" etc and etc...go fuck yourselves, Ok?  The only reason you're able to say that shit is because of the govenment, thanks.  How about you show a little support instead of being a big pussy and bitching about everything.  Thank god that you don't live in some of these other shithole countries who are a LOT worse off than us.  Ugh...whatever...Im done.  And Im sure I'll get some irate jackass to reply to this and in advance...go fuck yourself.  

EXACTLY!  Hooah!

[Cossack]

So when are the Americans going to move back to Europe and give the Native Americans the land that god gave them.

Don't let that door hit all of yall in the ass on the way out either =D.

Actually, I know I've said this before, but most Native Americans (the ones not trying to get something for nothing that is) don't have a problem with the europeans kicking them off their land.  Native Americans were doing it to each other long before the Europeans came along.  There are things that are terrible that went on, things that were just wrong (the breaking of treaties over and over, the genocide that went on against many nations).  But just the taking of the land, shit, look up Native American history before speaking about it.

You get the point LM is trying to get across there right Bucc?

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Yes Sack, but I'm trying to lighten up all the talk of killing for a religion.  It's no better or worse than killing for a nation really, or a woman, or money.

People will call it what they like, but what it comes down to is they are all making war or killing for a way of life.  The way of life they want.

The problems come when some assholes want to impose their way of life on everyone else.  Yes, most of the major nations and religions are all guilty of it.

[Ssickboy]

Oh and by the way...all of you who say "I can't stand the government!  It sucks!" etc and etc...go fuck yourselves, Ok?

hmmm,  who you talkin too "kiddo"?  there's no one here saying that.  

It's no better or worse than killing for a nation really, or a woman, or money.

i agree, all of those things would be crazy to kill over.  crazy i tell ya.  ssick in the head type.  And then to have your own fair way of life imposed upon by someone taking advantage of you, it makes total sense to defend your right as a human being.  Who in iraq is imposing upon us?  "blah blah blah"... oh Sadam was imposing upon the rest of the middle east.  But then why isn't the other countries involved, the UN?  Why are we there mostly alone?  Everyone else stupid?  

our soldiers are saying "we're here to free iraq"

does a free iraq = no terrorism?  If not, then are we spending our resources and soldiers lives for the right cause?  Cause we might be  making things worse.

The problems come when some assholes want to impose their way of life on everyone else.? Yes, most of the major nations and religions are all guilty of it.                                                                

and...?  like who?  keep goin!                          

[BFG]

Christianity. Each time its fucking Christianity. And fucking ass holes who believe that their fucking 'god' gave them this and gave them that which means they are supior to others who do not believe or who's believes differs from their own. So many wars it would take to long to mention them... and so many times it comes down to fighting religions... Now... now we just seem to be trying to change any body who live differently from us.

Actually, I know I've said this before, but most Native Americans (the ones not trying to get something for nothing that is) don't have a problem with the europeans kicking them off their land.? Native Americans were doing it to each other long before the Europeans came along.? There are things that are terrible that went on, things that were just wrong (the breaking of treaties over and over, the genocide that went on against many nations).? But just the taking of the land, shit, look up Native American history before speaking about it

You surprise me... my reading of NA history has been rather different. Ok to start with it wasn't a problem - and people traded and things went ok... they even joined in as the british and the french tried to beat the shit out of each other ;0)
But as for not minding about having all their land taken, their buffalo killed and their way of life destroyed, about the deseases the white men brought... and how they were shoved into little reservations... my reading was they didn't exactly appreicate that. But i think i get ya point.

does a free iraq = no terrorism?? If not, then are we spending our resources and soldiers lives for the right cause?? Cause we might be? making things worse.

might be defintatly have ....

[Brutha]

Oh and by the way...all of you who say "I can't stand the government!  It sucks!" etc and etc...go fuck yourselves, Ok?  The only reason you're able to say that shit is because of the govenment, thanks.  How about you show a little support instead of being a big pussy and bitching about everything.  Thank god that you don't live in some of these other shithole countries who are a LOT worse off than us.  Ugh...whatever...Im done.  And Im sure I'll get some irate jackass to reply to this and in advance...go fuck yourself.  

It may just be me, but isn't this a paradox we see quite to often in the U.S. today? Freedom of speech as long as it is what the government says...and if otherwise you are an idiot?

Then I think I prefer those other "shithole" coutnries".....at least the government is open about the rapage of its ppl.

[Postal Worker]

First...to Ssickboy...listen pal, you can't tell me that you've never heard any of these little punks saying that around here (or any other place).  I know I've had this exact same discussion on other forums and its always the same.  Some jackass comes in mouthing off as soon as I post something like that, so I figured Id just tell them in advance to shut it.  

And Brotha...I think I already replied in advance to that one, lol.  Oh and rapage of its people?  ...Did I miss something?  

[Ssickboy]

First...to Ssickboy...listen pal, you can't tell me that you've never heard any of these little punks saying that around here (or any other place).  I know I've had this exact same discussion on other forums and its always the same.  

welcome to the (modern?) damn political discussions.  I haven't seen that problem in here.  And I actually welcome those ill-informed types/punks to come get involved.  This isn't some lame rocket science exluding people.  

[|MP|Buccaneer]

You surprise me... my reading of NA history has been rather different. Ok to start with it wasn't a problem - and people traded and things went ok... they even joined in as the british and the french tried to beat the shit out of each other ;0)
But as for not minding about having all their land taken, their buffalo killed and their way of life destroyed, about the deseases the white men brought... and how they were shoved into little reservations... my reading was they didn't exactly appreicate that. But i think i get ya point.

BFG, that's because you read the popular, liberal history, not Native American history.  

If you take say, right here where I live.  The last Native American Tribe to control it would have been the First Nations or the Shawnee.  But before them you had the Chipawa, before them, the Huron.  

The history you are reading starts in the 1600's, but the Native Americans were fighting each other long before that.

But even in the stuff from the 1600's to 1812, you can find how tribes aligned according to their tribal rivalries with other Native Americans.  Iroquis and Hurons, being huge rivals, naturally picked different sides in the French Indian wars.

Before the Sioux were kicked out of the Black Hills by the white man, they kicked out Crow, which kicked out Ute, which kicked out etc.  The Native American tribes competed for the resources just like the whites did when they came.  

The things that offended the indians was the waste of the whites, killing hundreds and thousands of buffalo at a time, only taking skins and tongues, leaving the rest to rot in the sun.  Like the breaking of treaties, over and over again.  But not just being moved.  That was a way of life for them already.  Nothing new.

[MacMan]

America, and it's presidents

Reading most of these posts has given me some hope again, that the average American citizen (what is the average American citizen? Currently, he/she seems to me an abstraction of a collection of predjudices i have collected, enlighten me), might begin to think for him/herself again, though perhaps the posts (from BFG, Losemoney, Ssickboy, and cohorts) come from a small splinter of a minority?

"Good & Evil"

Doing the "right thing" (here's to abstractions), may not be as hard as it is made out to be. Imagine yourself in the position of another person, that phenomenon is called EMPATHY, and is sadly lacking the world nowadays (even as a write this, I realize the hypocrisy of that statement, but at least I strive to better myself).
History tends to repeat itself, and i believe we are rapidly moving again to a time of religious wars (or perhaps the wars started with the advent of the first religion never ended),
for religion requires a blind belief (blind, as no evidence can be shown),
to believe blindly, imo. must be a fanatic, to at least some extent.
fanaticism, is the easiest state of mind to be abused by "evil" men (what is evil? as long as some humanity survives, the survival of the fittest has been applied, what's more, even if we all die (god forbid ), we'd obviously not have been the fittest, being too dumb no to self destruct),
fanaticism is easily abused, as once one believes something blindly, he must trust his peers in the belief system to tell him/her what the current beliefs are (please save the discussion of religion evolving or not for later),
so, i feel justified in claiming religion (especially monotheism) is one of the biggest mistakes humanity has ever made, being the perfect excuse to kill for.

Israel & Palestinians

Both sides are led exclusively by blind, radical IDIOTS. There is no solution, but it's still a stupid fucking situation (any vicious circle is stupid).

On a personal note

I do not expect anyone to take the trouble of decyphering my horrible syntax, so this discussion should not be affected by me.
Please realize this post is very subjective, like every post i have read on this forum, so to add even more subjectivity to this witches' brew: everything is to some extent subjective. Even the universe as we see it, has been subjectified by our eyes, sending signals to the brain, thus perceiving it individually: http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?r=2&q=subjective (one might argue the thesaurus is incorrect, but wouldnt that just be proving my case?)

and last, but not least, please take everything in post personally. or don't.

THINK FOR YOURSELF SHMUCK!

Peace (really, not GS's gun-toting kind with mutually assured destruction ensuring a cold war kind of unstable peace).
MacMan

(just my 2 eurocents)

[*NADS Lo$eMoney]

Actually, I know I've said this before, but most Native Americans (the ones not trying to get something for nothing that is) don't have a problem with the europeans kicking them off their land.  Native Americans were doing it to each other long before the Europeans came along.  There are things that are terrible that went on, things that were just wrong (the breaking of treaties over and over, the genocide that went on against many nations).  But just the taking of the land, shit, look up Native American history before speaking about it.

Well Bucc, that doesn't make the taking of their land any more justifiable.  But hey there must have been a lot of vacant land since the estimated population of the native americans was 1,500,000 at the time of European contact and by 1907 the population had dwindled to a mere a 400,00.  And I have studied native American history thank you.  Anyway this   has nothing to do with the point of my post.  

Guys, it really doesn't matter if YOU believe it or not.  God gave that land to Israel THOUSANDS of years ago.  It was theirs long before the world decided to give it back to them.  One day you will all stand before the Judgement Seat of GOD.  At that time, it will no longer matter whether or not you believed.  It will be too late then.

So why does god believe that the Israelis deserve that land more than the Palestinians?  Does god think that the Israelis are superior to the palestians?  If so doesn't that make god a bit erm... racist?  Oh is it because the Palestians are Muslims?  Well then god must be a pretty intolerant being, and I think it is every educated person's duty to oppose what they believe is unethical and I believe that intolerance, be it racial or religious, is unethical. And why should we as men intervene on the issue on god's behalf, we are men not archangels.

["Sixhits"]

I only have a few minutes so I'll have to keep this brief. There is so much to reply to, respond about...

In short, I think our arguments break down to defending these two perspectives on what it is to have freedom:

Some of us want freedom in order to exercise it.

Some of us want freedom in order to exercise it, but only for themselves and only in the ways they think are appropriate.

I am firmly convinced that George W. Bush would on an honest day asert that it is the second reason I propsed that is the reason he wants freedom.

I am worried that the state of Isreal under it's current leadership has been brought towards just that sort of "freedom" as well - our freedom, not yours. But I honestly think Isreal is not my problem. As an American, I say let and the Palestinians burn their own house down around them. But we must cease to support one side or the other. Both are devils in their own way.

[cO.gabe]

What the....Is this the best you can come up with? So you feel that 30 years of oppression hasnt done the trick? that Israel has systematicly tortured and killed palestinians that opposed them?

Brutha, get your fuckin facts straight.  The West Bank and Gaza were taken by Israel because of Palistinian violence towards them.  Israel does not systematically kill Palistinians, and definitely does not toruture them.  The only Palistinians that Israel kills are ones who have carried out or planned attacks against Israelis.  Its called self defense Brutha, and everybody has a right to it.

Perhaps it is time to try something new...like putting down the weapons?? Oh yeah....Israel will perish if they do.......heard it before...the same rant over and over again....HOW THE HELL DO WE KNOW? violence over and over again til nothing is left......that make me sleepless....and what scares me most is men that condone this.

Give me a break.  Hamas and other Palisinian terrorist groups want Israel gone.  That is a fact that even they have admitted openly.  Attacks started against Israelis way before they took control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.  Hamas will keep carrying out attacks against innocent civilians until Israel is no more.  Conversely, Israel does not want the Palistinians gone.  All they want is for the attacks to stop, and the violence towards the Palistinians is only an effort to halt attacks on Israeli citizens.  The only reason Israel is still in existance is because they are fighting back.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

You guys better be glad that Israel does not react to things the way the United States does.  Because if that were the U.S. sitting in that spot in the Middle East, and along came all those countries attacking us, you would be talking about the new states of Egypt, Syria, Lebenan, Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia that the U.S. just added to the Union.  I for one am pretty pissed off that the world tries to hold Israel back from properly defending itself.

Peace (through the use of Global Thermal Nuclear Warfare, if need be)  

-GhostSniper Out.

[Ssickboy]

I just tried backing my girlfriend's cat, Wanda, into a corner.  I was pushing and pushing, not letting her go anywhere.  I even had a grip on Wanda's neck just to make sure she couldn't squeaze out. Even though she didn't like it, she relented.  I kept pushing really tight.  and you know what happened ...  The sweetest nicest cat I've ever known left a nice deep gash on my chest, yelped a sound I will never forget, and I witnessed for the first time a very dark instinctual side to Wanda.  

Why did I do this?  A vision of god told me to get in the cage and call it my home.  I mean It was my cage, I bought it for her.  

Now if Wanda was as wise just as she is sweet, she should have done nothing, sacrificed herself.  The Animal Cruelty, or Humane Society would have arrested me, fined me, and made it illegal for humans to fit in cages.  Her sacrifice might have benefited cat's rights around the world, maybe not.  But can you really expect all kitties to be as perfectly saint-like?  

So I'm still in the cage as I write this.  But I'm not goin anywhere, I'm stuck, and she's pissed.  What's next?  Any solutions?  

[cO.gabe]

haha

[alaric]

I just tried backing my girlfriend's cat, Wanda, into a corner.  I was pushing and pushing, not letting her go anywhere.  I even had a grip on Wanda's neck just to make sure she couldn't squeaze out. Even though she didn't like it, she relented.  I kept pushing really tight.  and you know what happened ...  The sweetest nicest cat I've ever known left a nice deep gash on my chest, yelped a sound I will never forget, and I witnessed for the first time a very dark instinctual side to Wanda.  

Why did I do this?  A vision of god told me to get in the cage and call it my home.  I mean It was my cage, I bought it for her.  

Now if Wanda was as wise just as she is sweet, she should have done nothing, sacrificed herself.  The Animal Cruelty, or Humane Society would have arrested me, fined me, and made it illegal for humans to fit in cages.  Her sacrifice might have benefited cat's rights around the world, maybe not.  But can you really expect all kitties to be as perfectly saint-like?  

So I'm still in the cage as I write this.  But I'm not goin anywhere, I'm stuck, and she's pissed.  What's next?  Any solutions?  

Nice to see that someone finally sees the Israeli side of things....


----- Added Portion -----
I think people have been missing my point.

To clarify: Ssick has laid out exactly what happened to the Jews thousands of years ago and has been happening to them since.

Not that it matters.

The world governing body has given the Israelies the right to the land. Sucks for the palestinians but hey, shit happens. NOTHING gives any group of people the right to target INNOCENT civilians. Particularly through the dishonorable ways the palestinians have...

[BFG]

Ssickboy that has to be one of the best ways to sum up the conflict i have ever seen... it just fits so bloody well.

 for one am pretty pissed off that the world tries to hold Israel back from properly defending itself.

Hahaha. good one. oh... oh you were seriouse? you mean you actually believe this shit? OMG you really are f*cking insane! Well hell we should be properly arming the Palistinians so we can help them defend themselves. lol

ok lol well " I for one am pretty pissed off that the world is not helping the palistinians from properly defending themselves."

But hey its all Great. Israel just murdered two more palistinians, the religious and political leaders of hamas... And there are now 1000more people wanting to take their shoes and pick up their weapons to contine the fight. But israel is so fucking short sighted they don't see they are just making it worse...

But its all fine... Israeli blockades and the wall are helping turn the west bank into a open prison... hey you could call it a getto i guess... funny that. a group of people in a enclosed guarded enclave... ghetto... germany .... WWII.... the comparison has been made several times before.

[cO.gabe]

But hey its all Great. Israel just murdered two more palistinians, the religious and political leaders of hamas... And there are now 1000more people wanting to take their shoes and pick up their weapons to contine the fight. But israel is so fucking short sighted they don't see they are just making it worse...

But its all fine... Israeli blockades and the wall are helping turn the west bank into a open prison... hey you could call it a getto i guess... funny that. a group of people in a enclosed guarded enclave... ghetto... germany .... WWII.... the comparison has been made several times before.

Although I strongly support Israel, I do happen to agree with you on this BFG.  Although I don't see Israel's actions as morally or ethically wrong, I don't think Sharon is doing what is best for the country.  He has made a number of poor descisions, and I don't dispute that.  Killing the leaders of Hamas can only do them harm.  I find it very disturbing that yes, every time they kill a Hamas leader, more and more people join the cause against them.  I don't think it is right to compare the West Bank or Gaza to a ghetto though...that is going too far.  The ghettos during WWII were created for the purpose of genocide.  That is not what Israel is doing.

And ssickboy, that is a very good analogy.  You are quite creative.