Term Limits for Battle League Admins...

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Okay, I have spoken up about this in several other threads and now I think I should just create a new thread to state my case.

I think Mauti should seriously consider having Term Limits for the Admins of the Battle League.  Maybe 2 Seasons and then replace them with new admins.  Although recent admin decisions are partly the reason I feel this way, I also think that permanent admins breed corruption.

I know not all BL Admins are doing a bad job.  But some of them do have personal agendas and do play favoritism with their friends in the League.

So, as a *DAMN Supporter (which probably doesn't mean much), I ask Mauti to set term limits for the Battle League Admins.  My suggestion is to have a term limit of 2 Seasons.

Okay, maybe not replace EVERY admin every two seasons.  How about we have a certain number of Permanent Admin....say Elandrion, Civic, Flies, and Bucc.  And then make all of the other admins rotate every 2 Seasons.  And I am not doing this because I want an admin spot, I actually already had a BL Admin spot and I gave it to someone else.  I just see the Battle League going a bit down hill and thought this might be a way to help it out some.

-GhostSniper Out.

[spike]

I'm not sure I really agree. Look at long term admins, like Elandrian, Hazard and voodoo. They have greater experience with the battle league, and more respect for the compitition, and the honor which the bl needs. In my view, its the new admins who cause the problems. More likely to go with their friends, rather than the rules. The old admins are from a time of a smaller community, with more respect for the rules. In my opinion, we should judge them on their merits, rather than on the time they served.

-I.m not sure if this was coherent, it's early monday morning...

[Toxic::Joka]

So, as a *DAMN Supporter (which probably doesn't mean much), I ask Mauti to set term limits for the Battle League Admins.  My suggestion is to have a term limit of 2 Seasons.

I find it somehow perverted that you even mention this.. .

Other than that, I liked it better before admin positions were given out to the left and right. It should be earned, not be given as a trophy.. . Hard to define how to earn it though.

Right now there are several admins that in my personal oppinion have absolutly no business there, but rotating them out of there might bring even worse to "power"

[|MP|Buccaneer]

P.S. Just in case a BL Admin decides it is his duty to delete this, I have already copied and pasted it in a draft e-mail to Mauti.  So either way he will see it.  Might as well just leave it here for discussion.

Ghost Sniper, that really wasn't called for, and I find it insulting.  We have guidelines on what's to be delleted, edited, and left alone.  This is one part of your post that falls under it as provoking flames.  

You should know by know that crap like that only hurts your arguments.

In the most recent decision, the admins went against the rules set forth for the Battle League when they decided not to make MP5 forfeit when they didn't finish the finals on time.  Instead, they granted them an extension which another clan found repulsive at best (BTs).  So, then you have BTs challenging the admin decision because they felt they were in the right, and what happens?  BTs gets banned from the league while the group that started the problem gets probation.  

Ha.  GS, you are out of touch.  You should really read some of what went on behind the scenes, that even involved your own clan.  Ask around, get the full story.  But don't keep crying a river of tears, spinning the situation like that.  

BTs was banned for one reason and one reason only.  They flat out told the BL that they would not abide by the decision of the Admins, even after they got the Admins to vote on it a second time with the same results.  Granted, some of BTs didn't know or realize it was happening.  But the fact is, it did happen.  

You want to talk about term limits, go right ahead, it's a worthy topic.  But by mud slinging this kind of bullshit in the grandest traditions of Rush Limbaugh, ignoring the facts that don't fit, you just weaken your case, not strengthen it.

I also agree with Spike.  There are good people that shouldn't be excluded just because of time.  Also, the theory behind having each clan represented would have to be thrown out, because some small clans would have all it's members reach the limits.

You have to look at the problem you are trying to solve, and address it properly.  If you are unhappy with the quality of some of the Admins, then you should look for a way to censure just those Admins, without punishing those doing a good job.

One last note, having been on the inside.  You have very little idea of who's doing a good or bad job until you've been in there.  Different people have a different idea of what is a good job, and as long as you are basing your story off third person information, you can't really count on it being non-biased.  If you are basing it off of the decisions reached, than you should really take a look at the whole debate, see who was saying what, who was putting forth an effort, before you jump to any conclusions.

Go back a bunch of pages, a few months in time, and you will see that Network and BTs pushed hard to have a board of directors, with a member from each clan, to be the admins of the BL.  This way, each clan had an equal say in both the rules, and how they were applied, and how disputes were solved.  I find it very ironic how much that system has been attacked by the very people that pushed for it in the first place.  

[BTs_FahQ2]

I know a BTs brought this whole thing up.  Please BTs guys, exclude all occurences from this last season from all topics.  It is best we let the issue die instead of beating the corpse over and over again with a pole.  We are not winning any hearts by constantly bickering here and we are losing respect by bringing it up and up.

No matter how we feel about what happened, well it did happen.  Nothing we can do about it now.  Now I know you were trying to use the situation as support for the argument, at least in some way or manner.  But really, it creates no room for progress and only brings back old flames.

We stood up for what we believed already.  Over and out.

In post.

I for one still think the admin idea is great since we get the opinion of many instead of one.  Lessens the place for error.  Whether or not someone is doing well, well bucc is right.  How do we know, most of everything is argued in a private forum and there is no way to really tell what is going on.  Plus, you have to give these people credit for taking the time to even do what they do.  It's not like anyone gets anything out of being an admin.  So respect the extra time they take to do it.  If someone is a bad seed, well I have said it in the past.  Call them out.  Name names and point fingers.  It's the only way to get something done and to kill the problem at the root.

[Saberian 3000]

Yes, Ghostsniper I completely agree with Fahq2 here, and by posting your concerns with this issue in topic discussions that have nothing to do with this is quite crap.  So again plz refrain from spammin ure personal issues in forum topics that are not linked to that in any way shape or form.  when I post a topic I want an honest opinion about the issue and to possibly resolve it.  by you doing your posting on this in other topics it is creating issues with possible flaming that I think should be somewhat contained to a specific area in this forum.  Admins, plz take out his topics in the other topics and mine as well to his reply.  Located in the Domination topic that was started.  Thanks.

:MoD:saberian

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Okay, I amended my argument to make exactly what I was trying to say a little more clear.  Go back and look at it again.  Wasn't trying to insult anyone (well, a few, but you know who you are).

[BFG]

I know not all BL Admins are doing a bad job.? But some of them do have personal agendas and do play favoritism with their friends in the League.

Which is a pretty seriouse allergation, considering this is what every single Admin strives not to do, and the way we make decisions and vote is designed to mean it is never a factor. Rather than hinting would it not be simpler to just say exactly with whom you are unhappy with and for what exact reason, especailly with reference to them having

personal agendas

?

Fine i accept their are people that think there are problems, but general accusations arn't going to solve anything.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I know not all BL Admins are doing a bad job.? But some of them do have personal agendas and do play favoritism with their friends in the League.

Which is a pretty seriouse allergation, considering this is what every single Admin strives not to do, and the way we make decisions and vote is designed to mean it is never a factor. Rather than hinting would it not be simpler to just say exactly with whom you are unhappy with and for what exact reason, especailly with reference to them having

personal agendas

?
Fine i accept their are people that think there are problems, but general accusations arn't going to solve anything.

Okay, looks like I can't get out of this with out mentioning names.  But the particular case I'm looking at is with Typhy and vooDoo.  Although voodoo is not in the same RvS clan with Typhy, he is in another clan with Typhy in a different ladder.  Now, admins are supposed to stay out of rulings that they are directly involved in in a particular clan, so technically voodoo didn't do anything wrong.  BUT, as voodoo is in another clan with Typhy, I don't see how nobody has looked upon this in an unfavorable light.  So, at the very least a rule should be made to fix this from ever happening again.  Now, I do not have direct proof that favoritism is involved, but it sure looks fishy from my perspective.

[Cutter]

I just see the Battle League going a bit down hill and thought this might be a way to help it out some.

i heard somebody else say this a couple days ago, so i went and counted total cb's from season 7 compared to 5 and 6. i can understand if you think something could be done better to help the bl, but go check the numbers before making a statement like the bl is going downhill.

[Fusion]

Ok .. Ghost.. please talk to me before you post again. I have some info that I worked out with some of the admins regarding past decisions made. Now Bucc, this comes from me with love, please remember what we talked about, this might help things get taken care off with alittle less flame. Thanks bro.

As for the issue GhostSniper brought up.

I am not sure I agree with the whole removal after 2 seasons. But maybe something like this.
When a New Admin is nominated the community gets to vote and have to give reasons for voting either way. Then Mauti/Elandrion would make final decision.

Then every 2 or 3 seasons they are up for renewal. Basically people can vote again if there is one needed.

Just a suggestion.


And yes BTs_ do what Fah said here, no need to re-live things that have been worked out. Bucc has assured me both sides have things to work on to prevent something like that happening again..

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Fusion, I'm ok.  I like your and FahQ2's posts.  

I stand behind all the points I posted, except for bringing up BTs.  This is a matter of an individual poster, not a clan.

I still don't agree that there should be any term limits.  Since only people behind the scenes can really tell, I think the decisions should be left to them.

PS, I will not be one of the Admins next season, for those that didn't know that yet.

[Maniac]

GhostSniper, i'm sure you posted this after the recent dispute, but saying that the admins should be replaced after a while is not a good idea. New admins tend to not do as good of a job (most of the time) because they just don't have the experience of the other ones. Now don't get me wrong i'm not saying i like all the admins, but i like 90 percent of them. They get the job done and that is all that matters.The subject of picking people they like to support is somthing that is going on, and it will be like that it's just the way it is. That is why there has to be a vote so that one just can't say "hey i like him i think they are going to get 300 points form saying another clan didnt show up" even though it's lie.                    
                                                                Maniac.

[crypt]

I think that less clan admins and more less-biased admins (not in clans) would be a good idea. This is only however my suggestion, and I'd like to stay out of this further, please don't flame me.

[Supernatural Pie]

Okay, looks like I can't get out of this with out mentioning names.  But the particular case I'm looking at is with Typhy and vooDoo.  Although voodoo is not in the same RvS clan with Typhy, he is in another clan with Typhy in a different ladder.  Now, admins are supposed to stay out of rulings that they are directly involved in in a particular clan, so technically voodoo didn't do anything wrong.  BUT, as voodoo is in another clan with Typhy, I don't see how nobody has looked upon this in an unfavorable light.  So, at the very least a rule should be made to fix this from ever happening again.  Now, I do not have direct proof that favoritism is involved, but it sure looks fishy from my perspective.

I don't see how favoritism had anything to do with VooDoo's decision, because the fact is that the decision made was not "In Favor" of either clan. It was a compromise/decision that was to be carried out, and could have turned out in either clan's favor. Now, I understand that you guys want that topic to die, so that's all I will say. I just wanted you to see that Voodoo's decision couldn't have been biased for MP5, because his decision (as well as the majority of the admins) was not even the decision that MP5 wanted.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Okay, sorry I brought it up.  Really wasn't my intention to flame anyone.  Just thought I'd bring up an ideal I was having for the BL.  I actually thought of this before the recent stuff happened, but I used that just as an example.

I do like Fusion's ideal of voting to renew admins tenure every 2 or 3 seasons....that sounds pretty fair.  And that is a little more along the lines of where I wanted to go with this thread.

-GhostSniper Out.

[Fusion]

Thank you GhostSniper for clearing up your point. I think it is a good one. Yes, Bucc you are right only Admins can see behind the scenes, but why should everyone from now on excluded from being an admin, especially if we dont like the was an admin expresses his authority ( not directed at anyone just a point). I do think the people in the league should have a say so, just like we elect our government. Just a thought/opinion.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

why should everyone from now on excluded from being an admin, especially if we dont like the was an admin expresses his authority ( not directed at anyone just a point).

I do think the people in the league should have a say so, just like we elect our government. Just a thought/opinion.

Well, this depends Fusion.  First of all, I'm not in favor of excluding anyone, term limits exclude, not me.

Second, it all depends on how you want the Admins selected in the first place.  See, a few months back, people were pushing to have representation from all clans equally (within reason, like new clans would have to wait till next seasons etc).  There was a lot of talk about that.  Now, that's pretty much where we are right now, or at least that's the idea.  With people moving about and clans coming and going, it will never be 100%.

Well, if this is the way you want it (and not just you Fusion) than why should you, a member of another clan, tell my clan who can represent them?  And vice versa.  

Now, if the Admins got together and said that Admin for clan X was abusing their position, or not doing their share, and ask Clan X to submit a new Admin, I see that as being the only acceptable way for other clans to be involved in this decision.

Third, the people at large, that do not have access to what happens behind the scenes can't make an informed decision.  It's not like politics, where things are a matter of public record.  You can't tell me for sure who voted which way on what decision, or was abusing some of their responsibilities, not without looking into the Admin section.  Without that ability, some people will just jump on the band wagon and go after the Admin that is posting a decision, even if that Admin voted the other way.  

Now, that's the system that was pushed for.  That's the system that is more or less in place.  

But that doesn't mean that there isn't recourse if you think an Admin is abusing their powers.  We have guidelines as Admins, that we are supposed to follow.  Those that can't follow them, as I have said, should be dealt with by the Admins as a group.  

To give a couple lose examples here, and Fusion, since I know the air is clear between us, I'll just use myself as an example.  That way nobody gets bent out of shape:

Let's say that BTs and MP have a dispute in a CB.  There isn't much I can do to actually abuse my Admin position.  I could delete posts in the forums, but that would be noticed quickly and hurt my case, not help it.  I could ask some of the other Admins to do me a favor, and see things my way, but, does that have anything to do with me being an Admin?  Couldn't you do the same thing?  Especially the Admin from your clan?  See, there's nothing I can do.  I'm not allowed to vote, and if I go against the guidelines and start preaching my case in private, not public, I will only be hurting myself.  

Ok, next case.  Let's say that BTs has a CB with SiX (they don't CB, so I'm not worried about pissing them off by using them as an example).  There's a problem.  Now let's say that Gemi comes to me and lays on the old "come on buddy, you hate Fusion's guts, just rule in our favor, you'll be better off on the ladder anyway".  What happens?  And how would you ever know for sure?  There is only one thing that can help prevent that (well, besides scrapping the whole system and making it like the Supreme Court, appointed for life, and no conflicts of interest) and that is to have members from all the clans voting.  If I were to do something low down and dirty like vote for a buddy just because I didn't like you, the only possible way you could tell is if I wasn't posting my opinions in the Admin section at all, or if they just made no sense.

Well, I may not agree with some of the opinions of my fellow Admins all the time, but I can't say that any of them has given me reason to suspect they are doing something underhanded.  And if one were, that's one out of the many that need to vote.  

Hell, if anyone really thinks some Admins would sink to this, than it goes both ways.  For every Admin that votes on one side of an issue to help out a buddy, you would have an Admin doing the same thing in the other direction, wouldn't you?

Those are the big things, and I just don't see how you can improve on the system without chucking it and just going back to letting Mauti run the league.

As for the little things.  Are there Admins that cross the line?  Yep.  Gotten pissed off about it myself too.  Admins have deleted posts they shouldn't have, without asking or leaving a reason.  They have flamed when they shouldn't have, and they have not been as active as they should have.  Problem is, do you know which ones they are?  Hell, would you even agree with me on who they were, if you had all the same info as I do?  I doubt it.  And that right there is the reason in my eyes that cleaning up the Admins, should in itself, be one of the jobs of an Admin.  

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I think that less clan admins and more less-biased admins (not in clans) would be a good idea. This is only however my suggestion, and I'd like to stay out of this further, please don't flame me.

Crypt, that's more or less the system we used to have.

I for one agree that I liked it better.

[BTs_FahQ2]

I for one would just like to point out to everyone that it is still just a goddamn game.  There is nothing really to lose here but ego and reputation, and even that is disputable since hardly anyone here knows the other on a personal basis.

I mean, for as long as I remember people just go nuts as if there is really something at stake here in this league.  For the past few seasons I haven't really seen a decline in anything but fun and gaming.  I am 26 for christ sakes, I put in a hard days work and I like to kill computer people instead of killing my actual coworkers (i am still not sure which one would be more satisfying).  

*Damn and the rest are just trying to give us a place to do it in the most functional manner.  Let's all just sit back and relax and put things into idle for a while.  I am tired of just seeing so much effort put into things that are so futile when you step away from the computer and enter realism.  I mean, I wasted a bunch just trying to get through the last episode of disputes.  I am not saying that it was all for nil, but in the end, will anyone care.

Just put up the best fight you can with your buds and have a good time dammit.  Be constructive in argument knowing that we are all here just to have some fun.  If you want to take it to another level, maybe we should start putting some money on the line.  At least then there is something really to lose and we can enact some policies that make it all worth it.  Until then, have some fun.