Domination, should it be used for small and DAMN BL Maps?

[Saberian 3000]

Admins or any map moders Plz read,

Well, I have recently discovered an issue that is quite disturbing.  As we have been cbing, we have noticed a few issues with the gameplay and maps by the use of Domination.  As we all know how domination works we also know that the only way for the map to be evenly spaced apart with the domination points is that the spawn points are also spaced apart accordingly.  Here is the issue:  My problem is that this domination has been used on the DAMN BL mappacks which again have not gone thru proper testing because if it had, then people would obviously notice the mis-placement of the domination spots.  Only a couple of maps have decent spawn points for the domination zones.  Why is that?  Well, it's quite simple actually. It all falls under the premise of the issues that Revolt and myself have been trying to sort out with the DAMN BL mappacks.  The one thing that the DAMN BL mappacks was not tested for was the simple use of the Domination zones.  The reason that the zones are so "fucked up" in mis-placement is because there is no official spawn points.  As you will all notice that the Prison map for example has no official spawn points for the game.  Example:  The map is random respawn when playing multiple spawns.  This is the reason of the misplaced zones and for that reason should NOT be used for Domination.  Yet it was still accepted by Mauti for the use in DAMN BL.  I am still trying to figure this out, but since there is no point in crying over spilt milk I would just assume to fix the situation.  i will be "attempting" to remedy that situation soon with Revolt, but more then likely I would just put a limit on the maps that can be used for Domination.  The reason being that first off:  Domination should only really be used on bigger maps for gameplay.  And second: is the fact that we might not be able to fix the zones cause it requires some serious porting of the original map which most of these maps can no longer be read properly by IGOR even if we were to use a PC which again I frown apon.  

So my solution is easy:  Either fix the maps that need to be fixed for Domination, or take them out all-together for more fair gameplay when it comes to the use of Domination.  ie: Not using Domination for ANY DAMN BL mappacks (just to make it easy), and not using Domination for any maps used by CQB.  Cause of the issue of the maps being too small for the use of Domination.  

:MoD:Saberian

P.S.  This is not a flame but an attempt to get to a solution of obviously a messed up situation because of the lack of testing with the DAMN BL mappacks and the use of Domination.  Both are deadly to the BL.  

[Acri]

As a pretty decent player, I find domination's uneven zoning quite intriguing. It adds more tactics to the game when some areas of the map have higher priority than others. Actually, I quite enjoy that there is a spot on Chalet with two zones, because if the enemy gets it, you HAVE to focus.

Unfair maps bring out the best of a good team!

[Stripes]

i havn't played domination (in a cb) yet.. but im sure it would be good, then i can use my gl more ;-) ... but ofcourse there will be some spawnkilling...


Dont uguys think that?


Stripes..

[Aramarth]

By the same token acri, unfair smoke points can just as easily give the win to a lesser clan.

The key here isn't to take out domination. Sab has the idea. Any map that qualifies for the cqb ladder just doesn't play nicely in domination. Follow me around the block for a moment. The cqb maps are often inside buildings, with a lot of doors. One team can, with the proper spawn, section the entire enemy team into one corner of the map, with only one smoke location. They can take the rest at their leisure. Now all they have to do is sit on their butts and wait for the trapped team to try and break the blockade. Well, it doesn't work.

Simple solution? Until the day when the spawns and smoke locations are fixed, any cqb map should not be valid for domination. It sort of defeats the purpose of dom anyways, don't you think? Domination is at its best with a lot of space, not in room by room combat.

Aramarth

[Acri]

I don't agree at all. That is like saying LMS shouldn't be allowed on smaller maps, because the lesser clan might win.
Reservoir is allowed for CQB but it is so awesome as domination!
What I miss, in all honesty, is CQB Domination!

[Saberian 3000]

Well, LMS is allowed on the smaller maps because each team has an equal possibilty to win the game, and that is where the true skill comes to play.  Unfortunately for the spawn points of domination, the maps were made available for them without proper testing by the clans that were involved with the making of these maps for DAMN BL because first off:  Domination was not in use before the maps came out, and second off, whoever decided on the domination being used for CB's obviously didnt look at these maps for issues with how the gameplay was gonna be affected, especially on smaller maps.   That is the difference Acri, the skill should be based on the clan, not the start position.

I am not saying that domination should be banned from all maps, but what I am saying is that most of these new maps were not based around the possible use of Domination.  I can guarantee that when these maps were made, their intention was never to be used for Domination.  More of less LMS, King of the hill types of games.  But even the fact that there is only random respawn options for these maps tells you the limits to what the maps were made for.  The reason they are random respawn is because these maps had a specific purpose only.  For CB style of the above mentioned purposes with only one life.  Not Domination, because Domination, for it to be fair and even playing fields needs specific spawn spots to use as the domination points, which these random respawn maps do not have.  As you can tell by just taking a Screen shot of a DANN BL map while in domination mode.  Plus in reality on Domination there is only supposed to be 5 smoke spots when on many maps there is 6 depending on how many random insertion zones were made for the map.   So ya see these maps in DAMN BL mappacks were NOT made for Domination.  Plain and simple and therefore the use of Domination was not thought out well enough to introduce it to DAMN BL without some actual testing done on it.

To be honest I do believe that things should be voted on in DAMN BL before they are placed into scenarios that only seem to hurt the BL when it comes to useage.  The thing we want to avoid, and I think Acri can agree on this point, is that we want to avoid the finding out of these issues BEFORE we start using them in BL, not while in the BL season.  Plus I do not believe that new maps should be placed into a battle league season in the middle of the season.  That is also another issue I must contest.  As we have seen these maps were NOT tested even slightly for gameplay in Domination on BL and therefore this whole thing should be re-thought BEFORE the start of a new season.  

To specify a little more on the issue of Domination.  I do not believe personally it works for the CQB or small maps because of the obvious one sidedness of where you start within the game.  All a clan has to do is start with more smoke spots available to them in a smaller more contained map, and then one goes around getting them while the others in the team cover the 2 or 3 possibly entry positions with sensors and men.  All literally eliminating the possibility of a turn around or win.  I dont see the skill in that.  It's just like the issue with the spawn on Chalet being at the bottom with only literally 2 entrances to get in from.  And one sensor can eliminate ALL possibility to getting into the smoke for the opposing team.  All Domination does for CQB style maps and these DAMN BL maps that were not ported for the game of Domination is make the game completely one sided and the winning goes from skill to just plain who can get to the camping spots faster to take the more spawn spots and hold them from the two or three max entry points.

Another issue that I forgot to mention is the simple fact that many of these maps have only 3 spawn spots, therefore a 4 vs 4 cb would be out of the question on these maps.  Again, something not thought thru when it comes to BL gameplay.  This should also be addressed.  As a matter of fact these issues can almost go hand in hand.  Anyway, something to think about.

:MoD:Saberian

[Acri]

Saberian, I disagree a lot on almost everything there.

There are, in my opinion, no issues. Winners adapt. Unfair maps are fun. I love being outnumbered and trying to break a hard deadlock is my favorite pass-time. That there are only two entrances to the WZ in Chalet is FUN!
How is there any real difference between domination and LMS? It stops people from camping. It's good.

LMS Chalet is WAY more campy than WZ Chalet.

And yes, a skilled team can turn around ANY situation.

Winners adapt

Most clans (not counting MoD) think very straight... no alternative tactics ever. We of zt love trying different approaches to known situations and finding out the most unpredicatable tactic for the new maps.

[BFG]

All im gonna say is we are here to provide a fair and level playing grounds for players and their clans to compete on. Recently its become very clear that the playing ground has a resident mole... there are a few lumps and bumps. Speaking purly from an Admin point of view, i think the current set up could do with a few hours rolling.... those lumps and bumps need smoothing out and that mole needs a new home.

mr mole go bye bye

[BFG]

nothing im sure to do with recent decisions that have been made...

[Saberian 3000]

Umm, actually Acri, your assesment with warzone Chalet is incorrect only because that is one of the issues with the Chalet map and whatnot because only 2 entrances to the Warzone camp spot underground.  That, first off is the reason that the Warzone is gonna be moved to the top.  That way more variance of possible solutions to the Warzone can be achieved and that allows less sucessful camping tactics for the clant that holds the Warzone.  Now as for LMS, well, it's hard to sucessfully camp a warzone when you are constantly on their sensors.  I do not think that you have played too much of the 2.0 maps because if you even tried it on CQB mode without sensors you would realise that even without those pesky sensors the Warzone can be easily sucessfully camped with just two people.  

As fot the rest of the maps, well, the issue is not so much with warzone or LMS as it is with the testing for Domination, and since Domination came out with the 2.0 DAMN BL mappack I jsut cant see how Domination was even tested.  

I have talked with some people that created the mappacks and they agreed that Domination was not tested out for any of these maps and therefore should not have been entered into the equasion unless they had been tested, which they were not, specifically for playability in Ghost Recon team cb's.  As for CQB I could see how they would work, but as for team cb's, well, all they do is promote camping of the only possible entryway points to the other side of the map, especially and specifically on smaller and mainly indoor maps.  Using the testing with a 4 vs 4 game or more you can realise specifically while playing Domination on for example the reservoir map that the team that starts higher on the map or on top persay is the team that has a 90 percent chance of winning.  This is mainly because that since you know where they start you can sensor the place and cover the only 3 possible entryways that are located throut the map. This BTW is only one example. Very easy to cover the 3 entranceways when you have 4 guys.  Hmmm.  Anyway, something to think about.

:MoD:Saberian

[BFG]

Its worth noting with the Domination problem that it only really comes apparent on the mimimum of 3v3 games - and truely obviouse in 4v4 and 5v5 games. In a 2v2 its much less of an issue as you really can't cover everything at the same time... but with 5 guns on each team on these maps it is a totally different situation.  Perhaps one solution might be to only use domination for 3v3's or smaller if the clan is playing on the BL map packs... ?

[Acri]

I'd like to see bigger cqbs allowed. Sensorless action is fun 4 vs 4 too (absolute maximum) and allowing domination in CQB would be the leetness.

Sab, I still feel you are missing the point here   In LMS, people can camp the exact same way as in domination!

[crypt]

Acri, any rule may be changed if both clans agree, wanna have a 4v4 CQB? Then do it. I'm sure some clan would be up for it.

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

No you cant have a 4v4 cqb.. read the rules it says in the rules what rules can be modified

28. Rules concerning TIME LIMIT and DEFAULT NUMBER OF GAMES can be modified if both clans agree to it.

thats all that can be modded... 2v2cqb ladder would not be a 2v2 laddr if guys started doing 3v3 or 4v4

[Saberian 3000]

Well, again that is true that LMS they can camp, but here's the thing.  With domination, you are already aware of where the enemy is right from the get go.  It is basically putting in a completely different view of how a real battle would happen on the battlefield.  As for domination, it dosent follow the concept of actual war.  but to alleviate my point yes you can camp with LMS, but the difference is you dont know where they started from to begin with, you can really only assume.  As for domination the camping spots are just now more refined now that you know for a fact where the opposition starts, so basically whoever camps the entrances to the larger side wins.  This is how domination works with 4 vs 4 or higher and on DAMN BL mappacks, which again, were NOT tested for domination before the actual gamestyle was approved.  That is the problem that exists, is that you are unable to admit that this hasnt been tested enough.

The only reason we beat you on some of those maps in the cb we had that you chose, is because again we started with the better spot in the game.  If the reverse was true, which sad to say it was for the most part you would have won.  There is no skill involved in camping entrances.  Whereas you have to come into contact with the enemy first either by sensor or by sight in LMS so you really cant camp like that until you have their possible start location.  

Funny thing is that prison for example is the dumbest map to use Domination on.  It is true that LMS it blows as well because no one would be stupid enough to actually goto the center of the map for instance to try and kill the other opponent if he or she didnt have to.  That is where Warzone fixed that issue because both teams had the same goal which meant that camping was a harder issue.  But with Domination the one team with the better spawn spots will literally always make the other team be forced to go after them therefore creating a very easy camping scenario with the only two entrances available to get to the other spawn spots especially in prison.  And leaving only 3 entrances for reaching the upper level in  reservior that can easily be camped by two with one sensor and two guys.  Also that would leave only 2 entranceways on Aztec for domination as well which can also be easily camped.  so for you to say that domination  is fair and based on skill with DAMN BL mappacks I have to protest that for the fact that the maps were not meant to be used with teams of 4 vs 4 or more in team games.  Smaller games, sure cause more probablilities can be added into the map cause of it's size and the limited amount of players, but with 4 vs 4 all it becomes for most of the team that has the more spots is a camp fest to the max.

:MoD:Saberian

[crypt]

No you cant have a 4v4 cqb.. read the rules it says in the rules what rules can be modified

28. Rules concerning TIME LIMIT and DEFAULT NUMBER OF GAMES can be modified if both clans agree to it.

thats all that can be modded... 2v2cqb ladder would not be a 2v2 laddr if guys started doing 3v3 or 4v4

I doubt anyone would care, it's just a fun ladder afterall.

[Acri]

The script already allows more than 2 players... try submitting and you'll see you get asked for number of players.

[Acri]

This is thread 6000 btw. Congrats!

[Aramarth]

In LMS, people can camp the exact same way as in domination!

Negative acri, no they cannot. In dom, you can win by simply spawning and sitting where you are told to sit by your map. You can win with no combat whatsoever in dom. In LMS, you at least have to use your eyes to find the enemy, and shoot one to win.

[Acri]

Um... if you spawn camp in Domi you lose. I am yet to see a domi game with only one casualty, whereas I have seen a million lms games in season 5 end that way.