to bander: hypocrisy

[Bondo]

I never said the people who were killed deserved it or anything of that nature.  I said that the U.S., through it's foreign policy, pissed the people off enough to commit acts of terror.  I do not support the terrorists.  I feel the U.S. does have a bad foreign policy in many ways and that it should be protested by the other countries such as the Middle Eastern ones, but they should protest diplomatically, not violently.  I hope this clearifies things so that you can see where I'm coming from.

[Grifter]

Bondo, I know what you are saying, and where you are coming from.  I agree with some of it.... I think our forign policy is part of what pisses of some people... and I think that some people just always need a target... and who better then the "fat, rich, americans".

The point I was trying to make (which is the same point I was trying to make with Bander, which brought upon a heap of insults) is that the message can get lost in the text sometimes.  Leading with such a strong statement (visions of 120pt bold news paper headlines about "Mars Attacks" talking about a meteor shower) can often encite an emotional response.... and usually does.  Saying things like we brought it upon ourselves (not a quote at all.... but how most people probably *heard* it)... makes people see red... not read some valid points that followed.  

To give you another example... Bander made some great points early on.  But once he got pissed and wrote  so many of the messages that Blackie posted at the begining of this thread... people just stopped listening to the important messages, only hearing the insults he was throwing.  I'm gulty of it as well... and I've noticed when I've done it, I don't often get an intelligent comment regarding the points I was trying to make, but instead a reaction to the tone in which it was delivered.

So, what I'm trying to say is, your thoughts are very valid, your opinions seem to be well thought.... but with the emotion running high, nobody here seems to be able to talk about it without fucking up, getting angry and pissing others off in the process.

All that said, I still don't agree with you on some points... but that's ok.... we aren't all supposed to agree on everything.  So take this as what it is... advise that how you say something can be as important as what you mean.

[bander fjjkf]

Heyas -

To Bondo: In my (stupid) european eyes u are a very patriotic american (also when others will deny this by taking ur arguments as "insults"). But i think: If people honestly think about the doings of their goverments and (if necassery stand up and say: NO! stop!) - this is freedom for me - to not be ruled from some "almightys" - if the people stop taking their right for free speech - what happened to true democracy then? I am really a fanatic - a fanatic democrat (not meaning the political direction - i mean the basically concept for what it stands). Austrian politicans do also a lot of stupid things (among good things) but the consequences on what "we austrians" do arent that BIG than a superpower can cause em. Its the reponisibility of people like bondo in every strong nation to keep them strong in future too. this is MY opinion. c?mon give me names ...

To the education systems in euroland:
In europe most schools, colleges and studys are all one like the other. (sure there are also exceptions). this means u dont have to send ur kids to a "better" high school - u just have to take the one next to where u live.
Due to our (expensive but worthy) social systems here - most of your costs for schools and studys are paid by the goverment. (From social taxes). So also "poorer" euros can send their kids into the same shools like the "richer" people. and for some reason euros permanently discuss (and inform themselves) about world politics. (this was a report for bondo from the eurolines).

Ace: lol - apologizing to u? for what reason?
I apologized to Black for my ungentle personal cursing on him  during some stressed times (we could argue for long here now - who started it - but blabla). I was VERY surprised for that "bander" thread of him - really cool blackhand much respect for that cool step.

but hey man (ace) - about the swim-time: why do u get so upset when some guys here mock on that time. (ur problem seems to be u always have to be the best). its not a bad time - and we dont have imminent need fow a swim-champion here. i must say i know some smart guys here who CANT even swim

better concentrate back on me ace - u didnt call me asshole the last few post. grifter - u always claim "i defended those people etc. etc.". lets end this. u think im an idiot - i think same of u. I remember really good what u called me during our "discussions" here. so just lets say: ignore each other. iff poss. this would be very cool for all i think.

bondo: scout for a save plane and then move ur ass over here to vienna u cowboy - so we can quarrel a littlebit about politics, then go out and drink loads of austrian-beer followed by clubbing time and a chillout afterwards (and so on and so on - euro style man!).
i think u would like it -

(funniest would be if u take postal with u hehe - that would ROCK! the most explosive damn mixture (bondo and post, who sometimes dont check what a awesome team they make too - hehe) on their way to vienna! ha!)
remember: once u re here NEVER climb into a red VW-GTI whos owner founded a clan named *DAMN

btw. i am stoned (i am the reason to not smoke pot - someone said. i must deny hehe (obvously, had a hard day at work and DESERVED that - btw. i am STILL at work - all alone. just me and my friend Ubada - a very cool palestinian dude) - but its really hard to keep your english together in that state of chillout

ahm - and what would fit better than a
love, luck and peace on earth now?

just one thing:

lol

[Bander jkvjkbv]

Moment. One important thing - also for the records bondo dude:

this is what u said:

"...but I think our government's insistance in attempting to Americanize the entire world brought it on..."

and this is how our nice translator-machine "ace" turned it around now:

"...you said something like "America brought this on themselves" you are full of shit. No civilian ever brought this on themselves."

no comment

[Grifter]

grifter - u always claim "i defended those people etc. etc.". lets end this. u think im an idiot - i think same of u. I remember really good what u called me during our "discussions" here. so just lets say: ignore each other. iff poss. this would be very cool for all i think. - Bander

Well Bander.. glad you have kept your trend of not listening to me at all.... I never said you were an idiot, nor do I think it. ?I happen to think you are pretty smart. ?However, I also think you are a hypocrate asshole. ?I've gone back and read "our discussions"... have you?? ?It all started when I thought you were getting a bit emotional... and tried to calm you down.... telling you that I'm losing respect due to insults you threw at americans in general. ?You then threw more at me.... just for telling you I don't like your stereotypes (the fat americans that don't know what goes on 10 blocks away... looking for the next Burger King). ?

So you just find whatever it is that you think I called you... and read back to the post I'm responding to.... ?Then I'll consider your words of letting it rest... and if you aren't smart enough to read those posts and see for yourself what I'm talking about (or show me what you are talking about) then fuck off... you are just another little man that has to be right. ?So you tell me if you can, what did I ever say that was so idiotic? ?But you wont... because you wont be bothered to do so. ?In the meantime, I'll just continue to post my opinions on everything, including you, as I please.

Oh, and yes, I do claim that I defended your opinions... in fact... I can read the posts right here... so why the hell shouldn't I state that fact?  The shame of it is, you are smart enough that I'd enjoy talking to you, if you weren't such an arrogant ass.  I tried to talk this over with you.... I'm trying here again.  Doesn't seem like you are interested in intellegent conversation...

[Bondo]

Well Bander, the invitation sound great but I don't think it will be happening for a few years.  Maybe I'll have to spend a summer in Europe sometime for "educational" purposes and I can fly over there on my education fund rather than my hardly earned money.  And BTW, I do mean hardly earned instead of hard earned.  
Anyway, after I graduate from college in 3.5 years I am strongly considering calling myself and expatriate and moving to England (or possibly another Euro country but England is most likely due to my monoligualism.)  If that was the case I'd definately have to take a vacation in Austria to meet all you DAMN guys.

[Grifter]

So Bondo, why the wish to become an expatriate?  And why England?

This is not a mock.... the reason I ask is because I'm purchasing a cottage over in Canada right now... and thinking about the merrits of moving over there full time... if it wasn't for the pay and the taxes over in Canada, I'd probably move to Toronto... but as it is, I like my 58cents to the dollar exchange rate and getting paid in US Dollars.  But of all the big cities I've visited (all the top 20 plus in the US, plus London, Kolon, Paris, Sao Palo, Sidney) I think I'd like to live in Toronto the most.  I like the change of seasons, being on a Great Lake (that's the Michigan boy in me) the more relaxed attitude of Canada (over the US).  Also, Toronto is one of the cleanest bigger cities I've seen.

[Bondo]

I'd like to go to Liverpool because I've become a big futbol fan of theirs, but I woudn't mind Canada I suppose.  About the expatriate part, it is just more fun to consider yourself one than not in my case.  I don't know if there is an official filing to become one or not.  The biggest problem I would have moving anywhere but in the U.S. is that I'm somewhat of a selective eater.  I eat simple things but they may not be easy to find in other coutries and also, I've heard that food isn't as safe to a degree outside the U.S. because we have the strictest standards (Go FDA)

[Grifter]

Bondo, when in doubt, go to a jewish deli and eat Kosher.... very high standards.  Ok, this won't do you much good in the middle east... but in most of Europe, you'll be able to find them.

Also, I forgot to mention the number one reason I might move to Canada... I once said that if Bush got elected....

[Bondo]

I might have made a if Bush got elected I would do something, but I didn't want any others elected either so what can you do.  Now if I was president, all of you would be moving to Canada, well except for the pot smokers, semi-isolationists, and other radical thinkers.

[jn.blackhand]

Don't you just hate pants? Let's all burn our pants.

[Bondo]

Yes, if I was president, it would be boxers and t-shirts for everyone.  Except hot girls, they would be naked...smack... ok, upon second thought, the hot girls can wear whatever they want as it is better to have fully dressed hot girls than no hot girls.

[*DAMN Bander]

Grifter: I didnt say "stop discussing" here (i am not the one who forbids discussions) i said: stop "discussing" with me. and i added "please".

So talk with everyone about what u like but its senceless to keep up "our" discussion ... i am stuffed to read cursewords in any of your post that is adressed towards me. Shall i really sum up here again what u called me? (some of u like to "compare" postings here, dragging them totally out of contex to make em appear different than meant. So - this is NOT my way of discussion or argumentation. And i will not list up the hundrets of new learned cursewords (in english) here - that u called me. Its not cuz i will not "bother me" - its just to avoid getting VERY pissed at u again. So i prefer a status of "ingnoring each other" (Grifter/myself)

Whenever i watch news from the war in afghanistan  i still remember my discussions with some people on this board here ... and when i see the pictures of these refugees and compare them to what i "heared" here sometimes im just ANGRY! But consider that as a statement of an afghan - so ignore it.

[Grifter]

Bander, forgive me for being unclear.  You asked me not to continue directing posts at you.  When I said I would continue to post what I please, it specifically meant that if I feel like directing a post towards you, I will.

Why.... because I feel falsely accused by you.  You accuse me of saying all these aweful things, yet I've gone through the posts... I see your name calling right there in the begining.  I've asked you to re-read them... I've asked you to tell me what was so offensive... you wont.  I don't care why you wont, but you wont.  You say it's because that's not the way to argue.. or debate these things... fine, bring forth some logic to your arguments I say.  Part of logic is a premise.... proving or disproving this premise is the next step in logic...  you know, if p, then q; not p; therefore not q.  The reason I call you a hypocrate is because you started the insults.. and the anti american posts... and then get mad as say we aren't discussing it when you get jumped on for doing it.

So, while you leave the insult hanging in my face... implying that I'm a liar... this continues to piss me off.  What am I guilty of... as far as I know, I'm guilty of throwing stereotypes back in your face, as you threw them in ours.  I'm guilty of calling you an hypocrate asshole (doh.. because that's what I've seen here..) but I've backed my arguments with what you've actually written.  You call me an idiot without anything to say, only that you haven't forgotten what I said.  

Well again I say, GO BACK AND READ IT.  If you are as smart as you think you are, you have to wonder if you could be wrong.  Nobody really smart is arrogant enough that they wont check their facts (even if it has to be in private, so nobody knows... they have to be sure).  I think you are mistaken in your beliefs that I attacked you.  I think I defended myself, using your own metephors and imagery against your arguments.  If you don't want to post them out of context... you can at least give reasons and examples.

As for freedom to speak... well, you have to remember that doesn't include a few things... like yelling fire in a crowded theater or SLANDER

So, as long as I feel insulted by you, I will continue to post whatever remarks I feel are appropiate towards you.  No, you asking please does not move me enough, since my personal sense of honor is offended.

[Bondo]

wow, that want over my head but I have two words for everyone
Forgive
Forget

If we can't do that after our little quarrles, then we are no good.

[jn.blackhand]

and you guys think I'M crazy for wanting to bury this thread?

bander, grift has a point. it was the same one i was trying to make before we made up, i don't think we've said some of things you've accused us of.

grift, pride can get in the way of progress. sometimes you have to let things go. maybe this is the fresca talking, but does it really matter to you what a guy from across an ocean posts about you on a forum visited mostly by computer geeks who are under the legal limit from alcohol, sex, and driving?

and as for the computer geeks comment, i'm one. so is mort. so is everyone here and that isn't a bad thing.