France Just Doesn't End the Strange Behavior

[Supernatural Pie]

French Fume Over Proposed Ban on Beards

...a government minister's call to ban beards and bandannas from classrooms along with Islamic head scarves, Jewish skullcaps and Christian crosses...

Give me a break...

[Noto]

I really do not think we can blame France as a country for this one.  We really should blame that guy's parents.  Anyway, he's obviously in his own little world, and I'm sure France will not pass such a measure.  They get enough shit for everything else.  I do not think they would want this hanging over themselves as well.

.::|N| Noto

[Jeb]

As a devout atheist, i even think they are going to far.

The french don't like the A-rabs either, maybe our countries will get along one day

[BFG]

What a doo lally crackpot. keep religion out of the eduction hell yeah but ban beards? what was this guy smoking?

This isn't france...this is some mad dude who hasn't got a freaking clue.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

What a doo lally crackpot. keep religion out of the eduction hell yeah but ban beards? what was this guy smoking?

This isn't france...this is some mad dude who hasn't got a freaking clue.

Ferry made the comments during a parliamentary debate, where lawmakers questioned whether the wording of the bill was tough enough.

President Jacques Chirac says the law's goal is to protect France's secular underpinnings.

It sure sounds like France to me BFG.  The lawmakers questioned if it were "tough enough"?  What makes you say it's just one extremest?  

[BFG]

Holy Cow bucc i didn't notice that bit.. Are these guys for real? Banning beards?!.... In principle i agree that mixing religion with education at a young age is a mistake... but "protecting France's secular underpinnings" i do not understand...

maybe 4 or 5 or 6 extreamists?

mind you i don't have a very high oppinion of Chirac... its almost as low as Tony blair... but not quite.

[Jeb]

If the french are able to ban beards, would this be their first victory?

[tasty]

I actually argued against this point on the phone with my mom. It seems like a pretty far stretch, but my mom insists that it is reasonable for them to demand secularity in every aspect of their state. You guys probably should learn more about the cultural conditions in Southern France before making up your mind too quickly, even if I am leaning toward agreeing with you.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I'm of two minds on this.  First, I don't like it when non-american citizens tell us how our country should be run (usually in the form of telling us we are wrong), and I think other countries should be able to govern themselves as they see fit (with the notable exception of cases like Bosnia and Somalia, where wholesale murder was taking place, and some other cases which justify wars)

On the other hand, I know how I feel about the separation of church and state, and how it should be applied here, in the USA.

You see, there is a difference between teaching a religion and allowing one free practice of religion.  What France is doing is not allowing the free practice of it.  For a more home bent example, prayer in schools.  I don't think that schools should lead prayers, but I don't think they should stop kids that want to prey from doing so either.  It's not their place.  

Separation of church and state does not equal atheism, but some people seem to think it does.  It means the state shouldn't influence you, one way or another.  It shouldn't be involved in the church, and vice versa.  By denying the rights of people to freely practice their religion, they are, in fact, influencing a religious decision upon these people.  How can that be right?  I'm lucky enough to have been educated all over, in different countries.  I've even attended some religious schools.  Just to point out a simple fact, they do teach evolution at the catholic school down the street (They teach both sides of the issue and let the kids see it for what it is), and they also have quite a few moslem students enrolled, and respect their traditions / devotions.  I realize this is a little off topic, but I'm a bit tired of hearing from the uninformed thinking that schools can't teach both.  I'll let you netfone with a teacher from that school if you don't believe me.

So, I say, let the French be fascists, it's their country, and fascists need a home too.  As long as they don't start "nationalizing" their belongings and killing them off.  

But I also say that people who beat the drum about separation between church and state should look at HOW it was meant when it was written, not at just the words.

[Supernatural Pie]

I agree with each of your points. Separation of church and state should be interpreted as: You can pray in school, and you can learn in church, but we won't force you to pray in school, and we won't force you to learn in church.

Ok, maybe that was oddly worded, but you get the idea.

["Sixhits"]

Wait, I thought the French were already busy banning red scarves of something. Like the frogs have any fashion sense.

Did anyone see the recent "Frodo" clothes lines outa Frogland?

[Toxic::Joka]

Hey snipe...fuck you

Congrats, im sure you scored high points in the anti-france posse

[Jeb]

He is now our leader joka,
he hasn't gone though enough puberty to grow a little mustash,
but he soon will and france better watch out.

[abe the frog]

I think you guys are sortof missing the point here. This rule applies to publicly funded institutions, which includes schools, but also hospitals and the like (and it's France, so theres A LOT of other stuff). The issue is allowing religious symbols in places that are funded by the (secular) state, so if you want to open a private religious school in which everyone can wear headscarfs, bigass crucifixes and yarmulkes you are more than welcome too. The issue of the headscarves in schools has been a big one in France for a while and there was no clear policy on the issue from the top. Furthermore, France is one of the few countries to have genuine separation of church and state. If you think about the context, as tasting was saying, this makes a lot more sense.

[BFG]

Bucc talking about religion and eduction.... how do you feel then about the fact that, as i am aware, some schools in some states in the US refuse to allow the theory of Dawinism to be taught... Insead children are basically told that god created the world in seven days!

[|GM| pink rat]

this just sux  

french are about to demonstrate
nobody agrees with this law except some fucking politics  

lets make the revolution  

*** a french rat

PS : someone gets a razor for me ?

[th.Sentinel]

The issue has grown out of proportion.

I heard in the news they made the decission to ban scarves in schools out of health (safety) reasons. The girls who wear 'em even wear 'em during gym class, which is way to dangerous. The governement doesn't want to get the blame of a death kid. That hung herself up during a trampoline exercise, because her scarve got stuck on the basket.
To ban beards would be a bit to much... But they prolly had a good reason also. This isn't about a religious thing, its about healthcare (and safety) during special classes where the scarve (and mb beard) can cause damage to the pupill itself.

Everyone in France has a right to exercice his religion, hell I never saw so many religions in one country, even in one city like Paris.
Kids will still be able to exercice their religion in school, they even have special classrooms to pray.

Some ppl saw this thread as another way to start flaming France. Others found it a good point to start argueing about the fact of religion in schools. Let the argueing continue and the flaming stop!

th.Sent, belgiumese

[Cutter]

when i first heard about this a couple weeks ago i hadn't even thought about the separation of church and state, right and wrong debate. instead i can't stop thinking that this is gonna make france even more of a target, not from americans here on the forums, but from islamic extremists all around the world. and more importantly from within their own borders. doesn't france have europes largest muslim population? how are the protests going? any suicide bombings yet? this is exactly the sort of issue that if america had done it, you could bet your grandma's sweet ass that we'd be called the most evil and disguting nation ever by all the middle eastern nations and european countries just like france, and a world-wide jihad would be called (another one). for security and separation of church and state issues i understand why they'd do it. don't approve of it, but i understand it. but at this time in history i just think it's a bad idea and will only bring france problems, more specifically terrorist attacks onto the french people.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

If you think about the context, as tasting was saying, this makes a lot more sense.

Abe, please go back and read my post about context of "separation of church and state".

Separation of church and state never meant at "godless" state.  It meant that no church would have political power.

I don't know much about the French constitution.  BUT, here, the government is not allowed to make a law prohibiting us from our religious freedom.  So making us take off religious garments or icons is unconstitutional here.

I realize we have a lot more athiests now then ever before, especially amongst the young, however, that does not change "separation of church and state" to equal an athiestic state.  That was communism.  

Remeber, I'm a liberty nut.  And nobody has the right to tell me what or how to practice my faith (or not to).  As for the French, I don't know if they have this protection in their constitution.

I heard in the news they made the decission to ban scarves in schools out of health (safety) reasons. The girls who wear 'em even wear 'em during gym class, which is way to dangerous. The governement doesn't want to get the blame of a death kid. That hung herself up during a trampoline exercise, because her scarve got stuck on the basket.
To ban beards would be a bit to much... But they prolly had a good reason also. This isn't about a religious thing, its about healthcare (and safety) during special classes where the scarve (and mb beard) can cause damage to the pupill itself.

I don't buy that at oll.  Not one little bit.  I live in the largest moslem concentration in America (look it up), and they do not infringe on rights of the students with an excuse like that.  Any teacher that put the tramp under the rim should be lynched, not to mention that the whole scenearo is beyond far-fetched.  And I'd love to hear a real safety reason to ban beards.

Bucc talking about religion and eduction.... how do you feel then about the fact that, as i am aware, some schools in some states in the US refuse to allow the theory of Dawinism to be taught... Insead children are basically told that god created the world in seven days!

Couple things.

1) These are localities, not States (not since the monkey trials long ago).  So it's not very wide spread.
2) These are in the "Bible Belt".  Not just a bunch of very religious Southern Baptists, but Redneck Southern Baptists (yes, there is a difference).  Which brings me to my mixed feelings on it.

I think it's a shame that kids are shielded from any education.  They should be exposed to as much as possible, even if it's just theory (as religion and darwinism both are, btw.  There are still holes in Evolution).

However, I also believe that it is every parents right to bring up their children their own way.  And if that includes only the teaching of one side or the other, I think they have that liberty, even if I don't agree with it.  So, it's ok that they have gathered in communities like this.  It's no different than the Amish communities, or any other religious community.

The only stipulation I'd like to see is that they don't get State or Federal funding if they don't teach a core curriculum (and evolution would be part of it in my opinion).  I don't know enough about these communities (because I haven't lived in one myself, just have some relations that do) to know if they get government funds.

[BFG]

totally agree.. Although i do feel to an extent that it is a childs right to choose themselves. kids go to school to be taught how to learn, and we should be giving them the options and choices that let them choose whatever path they may decide on....
I respect parents wish's that they children be taught in a certain way but even if there was no funding i would disagree with them simply being able to teach whatever they liked. Do parents have the right to choose what knowldege their children are going to be allowed access to? i think thats a difficult one to find a clear line on...

And on another note when do you decide when and when not someone is practising a religion? @ one point ( don't know if this is still the case) thousands of people tried to form a new religion of somthing stupid of star treck or star wars.... it was rejected despite the hundreds of thousands of followers... Who has the write to make these desicons?