America = owned

["Sixhits"]

Frankly there's a whole aspect of terrorism that Bush has forgotten about and the press has quietly buried. Domestic terrorism. That's American's blowing up Americans.

When do you think domestic terrorism is going to become an issue again? Soon. And what will happen, if we as good citizen's, haven't spoken up for foreigners and their right to not be finger printed like a common crimminal and have their personal information filed away? What will happen is, one day, when a white guy from Alabama blows up a nuclear plant, it will be you and me who will have to get finger printed. It will be you and me who's various rights to privacy, our liberities of speech and free movement revoked, and our personal information will be filed away in a Washington database.

The goal of the Bush administration is to control the country, then the world. Not administer it, control it. Remember when Bush joked how much easier it would be if he was dictator? Remember when he said he thought Americans had to many freedoms? Bush uses the notion that our national security is more important than our national liberty, set against the backdrop of perpetual fear, to control us. Security over liberty. Protection over freedom.

Benjamin Franklin put it best when he said, "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." The road we walk down when we say, "it's just a foreigner" is the one Christians and average Germans walked when they saw the Nazi's come for the Jews, for the communists, for the anyone who was not themselves; The thought that ff it's happening to someone else it doesn't affect me.

It does affect you because every time you don't speak up for someone's rights, every time you bow before oppression, every time you turn a blink eye to another civil rights abuse or dissapearance or corruption of the Constituatio you cheat freedom and betray liberty and wage war on yourself.

finish the below peom -

First they came for the Muslims,
and you did not speak out
because you were not a Muslim
Then they came for all foreigners...

"First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me."

Pastor Martin Niem?ller

[BFG]

Ok bucc, it was a stupid subject title and i shoulnd't have posted anything in it if id known people were going to freak out

When perhaps people start talking about The UK and these forums are not dominated my american topics then i might ahve the opportunity to voice my oppinions about how f*cked up this damn country is.

We could go back in history and i could mention how stupid the bloody Crusades were. How we had a horribly dangerouse mix of politics and religion... how (i believe) this mix is still present and a problem in so many countries.
At one point we were the most powerfull country in the world. We must have one of the bloddiest history's around. Our behaviour over many many hundreds of years has at times been horrific. I do not and would not deny that.
Yes your right we managed to screw the Middle east over big time. We created Israel after the second ww. Oh no now im 'bashing the uk'
To say we have supported them more than the US i find hard to agree with in recent times. We aren't selling the israelis Armour, bulldozers etc or vetoing any attempt which is made to bring israli to order.. However i couldn't believe it when i heard  that people in the Bush eadministration in the US have been putting pressure on sharon, I wait in hope for this to happen to its full potential, but its a great start

So, the IRA was right?? The Basq Separatists were right?? Because they are stupid or crazy enough to suicide bomb makes them right?? Do you yet realize how stupid your statement was, or do I need to talk about using conclusions to prove your postulates being a logic trap?
Have you ever actually read any transcripts from Bin Ladin's speeches?? Heard what and why he hates the US?? Or do you just read the headlines and blame 99% of it on our backing of Israel (which is really funny coming from a Brit, one of the nations that backed Israel more than the USA has).

Here we go, you see i really don't know if you actually read what i posted. who the hell said they were right? You? I certainly didn't. The IRA is not right to kill innocent civilians becasuse a handfull of them don't like being part of the UK, Eta is not 'right', nor were the hijackers aboard the planes on september the 11th. No neither have i said its all down to the backing of israel...
These people DON'T have to be right, they aren't. Perhaps the IRA is a stupid exampe - its very clear what they want, and very obviouse they wont' get it as a very small and unpopular minority who resort to violence.  what i was trying to ask in general is why do these people do this? The IRA can be understood through history.  Why has this hatred for the west become so strong? America is seen my some as an icon of the western world, so what is it that the west has done to have resulted in this situation. Things are getting worse not better. like i have now said TWICE My issue with the news item is not a 'bashing' at america. Its me saying that i think this is not the right way to solve problems. If everyone increases security more and more, and more and more, communication between countries fails and we become more and more isolated. That i believe is a mistake where what the world needs more than anything is some sort of bridge between east west.

Binladan has used the Koran and religion. Complete bull shiting from it of course, i don't know how many of you know much of what the Koran says but the 'holy war' bull shit that he used  is not it. I am disguested at the though of people carrying out violence in "the name of allah". It is not in his name, it is not what the karan preaches. . People twist religion to fit their requirements.  
I won't talk about bush's language like "the crusade of good against evil" again"... other than to tsay that is a perfec example of creating a gap between east and west, and a dangerouse mix of religion and politics... I'd have thought everyone would hav elearnt that 'crusades' are not a good idea given our track record!

And tell me, oh wise one, where has the UK stood on those same issues?? France?? Come on, take a good guess if you don't already know.? This is just one of those fingers you shouldn't be pointing, if you know what I mean.

Don't start with the "oh wise one" bullshit please, i have never and never will claim it and having you say it like i was inplying it is just shit. yes i know what you mean, yes i think we were unbelievably STUPID to rush into iraq. Blair basically lied. He fucked things up so big its unbelievable. Our goverment basically fabricated the truth in an attempt to gain support for a war... Because blair wanted to be bush's bestest buddy... We went to war on the 'understanding' that we were going to 'disarm' saddam and remove these weapons of mass destruction he had. We are still waiting. I won't be voting in Blair again... Nor will i or can i defend what my country did. It is a great thing that Saddam has been captured... it will be far greater when Iraqi's with help can restore their country, export THEIR oil and not be tied by western pressure to do our bidding.
Franch and Germany did not want to rush into a war. They wanted to give the weapons inspectors the time to do the job that they had gone to do.. And becasue they did not support the war people like bush called them "cheese eating peace nazi's". Pathetic behviour like calling French Fries "freedom fries".

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Next I would like to address Bucc's view on America.  I dont know if I would call u a Liberal heh, in reality the views that you usually state are mainly one of a Republican, but hey, nothing wrong with that, just some different views that I share from yours.

Sab, Sab, Sab,

Libertarian, not Liberal.  There's a difference.

And I'm a moderate (aka centrist), not a Liberal or Conservative.

Call me a Republican and I may have to kick you in the ding-ding.  Same goes for Democrat.  Can't stand party politics.  Not one bit.  I'm not a Libertarian either, I've just been accused of it many times here because I do agree with many of their core values (just not enough to actually consider them a viable choice).

Hey guys, I think I'm the only Militant Right-Wing Extremest Conservative Rebublican on this forum.

And if you don't like it, I really don't care.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

["Sixhits"]

Hey guys, I think I'm the only Militant Right-Wing Extremest Conservative Rebublican on this forum.

And if you don't like it, I really don't care.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

God bless you Ghost. You do make life more interestin. ;-)

[abe the baboon]

Wow,
I find it repugnant when people dare to compare America today to Nazi Germany. Its not just stupid and uninformed to make those kindof comparisons, it also displays a monstrous lack of taste....
Equating the victims of nazi atrocities with non-US citizens who have to wait in line and get their picture and prints taken....hmm. Being inconvenienced by increased airport and border security isnt the same as ending up in a mass grave with your entire family, so dont draw such moronic paralells. By making those kind of comments, you not only make yourself look like a class A dipshit, you also disrespect the memory of those who were truely the victims of repression and persecution.

When they came for the terrorist
I didnt speak out because i wasnt a terrorist,

You people need to get the knot out of your panties and start thinking. I find it odd that so many europeans talk about how much these shitbags hate americans, when in reality the entire western world is the target of islamic terrorists. I guess it's comforting to delude yourself into thinking that youre not a target....maybe if you people looked at the some of the terrorist attacks since 9/11 youd notice that germans, brits, australians, and french people arent too popular among terrorists either.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

When perhaps people start talking about The UK and these forums are not dominated my american topics then i might ahve the opportunity to voice my oppinions about how f*cked up this damn country is.

Bullshit.  You have every opportunity to do so.  You can start a topic any time you please.  Hell, you could easily pop in your views instead of talking about Bush on many of them.  But that would take more than a bashing mentality.

Yes your right we managed to screw the Middle east over big time. We created Israel after the second ww. Oh no now im 'bashing the uk'

Not even close to your actual bashing of the USA.  Just the lack of insults sets it apart.

To say we have supported them more than the US i find hard to agree with in recent times. We aren't selling the israelis Armour, bulldozers etc or vetoing any attempt which is made to bring israli to order.. However i couldn't believe it when i heard  that people in the Bush eadministration in the US have been putting pressure on sharon, I wait in hope for this to happen to its full potential, but its a great start

Two quick points here, and I supply links to UK sites if you don't happen to believe that these reports came from the UK.

First, I don't know if you are stupid or just ignorant (or just a lying sonofabitch) when you claim the UK isn't selling Israel armor.  Leg irons to tear gas to rocket launchers, according to your own press on November 5, 2003.  

Don't you love it when they know more about what America's government is doing than their own folks?

Second, in another article, it polled UK voters about if the USA was applying enough pressure on Israel to solve the issues.  And close to 40% said the USA wasn't doing enough.  Why the fuck would you poll on the USA, poll on if the UK is doing enough!  I love how people ask why the USA thinks it's the world police, but their own countries EXPECT us to be just that.

One more thing, I don't blame the UK for helping to create the state of Israel, but I do blame them for manipulating Israel into attacking Egypt.

Here we go, you see i really don't know if you actually read what i posted. who the hell said they were right? You? I certainly didn't. The IRA is not right to kill innocent civilians becasuse a handfull of them don't like being part of the UK, Eta is not 'right', nor were the hijackers aboard the planes on september the 11th. No neither have i said its all down to the backing of israel...
These people DON'T have to be right, they aren't. Perhaps the IRA is a stupid exampe - its very clear what they want, and very obviouse they wont' get it as a very small and unpopular minority who resort to violence.  what i was trying to ask in general is why do these people do this? The IRA can be understood through history.  Why has this hatred for the west become so strong?

It's not hard to understand either, just read some of the transcripts.

However, your tone sure implied that you think the USA could have done things to avoid it.  You flat out said something along the lines of 'perhaps if American changed the way it interacted with the world, things would be different.', and you said this in regards to the terrorist threat.  That's like me saying 'perhaps if the british weren't so pig headed in dealing with their occupation of Ireland, things would have been different.'  Both are utter bullshit.  Terrorists are terrorist, and there is no right about it.  Your statement pointed at the USA and it's actions as a REASON for the attacks.  And I'm saying reason and terrorism don't go together.

like i have now said TWICE My issue with the news item is not a 'bashing' at america. Its me saying that i think this is not the right way to solve problems.

And like I have now said THREE TIMES (omg), yes, it was bashing.  Why? BECAUSE OF THE WAY YOU SAID IT ASSHOLE.

perfec example of creating a gap between east and west, and a dangerouse mix of religion and politics... I'd have thought everyone would hav elearnt that 'crusades' are not a good idea given our track record!

There's an example of the problem I have with your slant.  Bush, however wrong the asshole has been, isn't "creating a gap".  The gap is there, and was created long ago.  The gap has been made much wider by assholes like Bin Laden and his followers.  But no, it's always Bush's or America's fault, at least that is the way many of the assholes here write it!!

Don't start with the "oh wise one" bullshit please, i have never and never will claim it and having you say it like i was inplying it is just shit. yes i know what you mean, yes i think we were unbelievably STUPID to rush into iraq.

Actually, you didn't know what I meant at all.  I was still talking about the UK and France's actual stances on Israel.  You talked about the USA backing Israel in the UN, what about the UK and France?  They've both done so as well.  But only the USA seems to get your blame.  This is what I mean by bashing!

Franch and Germany did not want to rush into a war. They wanted to give the weapons inspectors the time to do the job that they had gone to do..

Really?  That's all?  Nothing about Frances contracts in the oil fields?  Everyone is so quick to point out America's interest in the oil, why do they overlook EUROPE, and it's interests in the oil?  After all, Europe needs that oil more than the USA does (we have our own reserves that weren't being pumped).  Why does nobody point to that?  Because it's much easier to BASH the USA, that's one reason.  Because you don't want to actually think, just react.  

The weapons inspectors were stonewalled for 10 years.  That was plenty of time to do their jobs.  Saying that France and Germany just wanted to give them time to do their jobs is just as fucking dumb as saying oil played no part in the war.  

[Saberian 3000]

ok heh, sometimes it seems that I just cant get that word Lbertarian right damnit heh.  In either event I am not really into politics either, just have my own opinions about certain topics just like every other American I suppose.  As for the job layoff issue with iblisajinn that he brought up saying that Bush wasnt the cause.  Well, I beg to differ.  I might not have been completely accurate on the timeline to the start of layoffs, but even before Bush got into office the workings of the layoff issues were already in the works because of the shit that was unfolding because of the election that he won.  As for layoff's it was very easy for me to see that one cause I was in one of the hardest hit cities when it started to happen.  Shit, it happened to me and I lost my job with about 100,000 other people in Western New York.  We knew then the cause of the layoffs, and we still agree today.  if you ask most people that were layed off the reason why it happened almost all of them will say it was Bush that had a hand at it.  I would get into more details but the simple fact is that it is 5am where I am at now and I am freaking tired as shit  Many of my friends and whatnot not only lost their jobs because of the lack thereof but their careers as well, as I did because of what had happened during and slightly before the Bush administration.  You dont really know how hard it hits until you feel the sharpness of the axe yourself.  In the Clinton administration there was a very high employment rate in Buffalo.  Whereas now, take a good look at what is left there.  How about nothing.  How about a town that since the Bush admin, has lost two seats of the house of Representatives because people lost their jobs and left cause they couldnt afford to live there anymore.  Plus they are most likely gonna have the Sabres move to Rochester and the Buffalo Bills might move as well.  The town because of unemployment has lost over 1/3rd of it's population.  Not to say it was ever a nice town, but think about it.  If Buffalo was hit that hard, how was the rest of the US affected by his admin and his higher focus on foreign issues over the employment of his people right here in the US.  Again, I am an American that believes that the people of America and their well being must come before issues outside of the country.  For without the people in the US, what is the point of protecting freedom when we cannot even deal with our own domestic issues  at hand.  Mainly unemployment and the explotation of large companies to underpay people to where they cannot live, at the same time financing an 87 billion dollar war that is now taking out benefits for our elderly as well.  All in the name of freedom.  Typical of Republicans as well as the Bush family  I guess the real question is when will the concerns of our nation internally be more of a focus then what is going on outside our nation.  And I fear only a Democrat in office will be able to solve that problem.

Again, srry if I rambled on there, i am tired and frustrated all at once.

:MoD:Saberian

[kami]

Actually Bucc, I've been to Brazil, and a whole lot of other countries in this world. I never had any problems when I went to Brazil, we could walk on the streets of downtown Rio at night without having to be scared of anything. We weren't warned by anyone, and I really doubt anyone would want to shave the hair off my fathers blonde head to make a wig...

Secondly, this topic wasn't about bashing America, it was a funny piece of news and I truly regret the title, perhaps it came out a bit offensive to all you patriots out there.

Oh and the fact that you ask 'who the fuck wants to go to Brazil anyway' just shows your fucking ignorance, that country is beautiful and I really recommend going there. It's not just waiting 10 minutes to go on the plane, apparently there had been checks like that on American cruisers that had taken 2 hours.

I'm really fucking disappointed with the whole lot of you idiots who take this offensively, I thought you'd know better than to think I was anti-American, I love America, and Americans, I really do, I might love Sweden more but still.

This makes me want to stop using this forum, no fucking humor here.

[westamastaflash]

Call me a Republican and I may have to kick you in the ding-ding.  Same goes for Democrat.  Can't stand party politics.  Not one bit.  I'm not a Libertarian either, I've just been accused of it many times here because I do agree with many of their core values (just not enough to actually consider them a viable choice).

Bucc, you sound like one of the newly-termed "South Park Republicans" - people who may vote for the GOP as the "lesser of 2 evils" etc etc. Tech Central Station's Stephen W. Stanton put out 2 interesting articles on this idea - that people can agree with freedom, indvidualism and smaller gov't but not be deathly afraid of pop culture - and hey, they might not even be rich white guys - after all, somebody's voting for the GOP, and there are sure a lot less rich white guys than the rest of the general populace. I consider myself in this group - Bush has a lot wrong, especially on religious issues (IMHO), but who's the alternative? Dean (with his angry rhetoric)? Kerry (who by the way served in Vietnam)? I think perhaps the best would be Liberman, but he's not near the front anyway.

Check out these articles:
http://www.techcentralstation.com/100702A.html
http://www.techcentralstation.com/111402A.html

Oh, and for a laugh - can you imagine what would happen if someone in the GOP suggested an intelligence test to vote?
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/155107_firstperson05.html

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Actually Bucc, I've been to Brazil, and a whole lot of other countries in this world. I never had any problems when I went to Brazil, we could walk on the streets of downtown Rio at night without having to be scared of anything.

If you read correctly, I was in Sao Palo, not Rio.  Big difference.  Like mistaking Miami for Detroit.

Secondly, this topic wasn't about bashing America, it was a funny piece of news and I truly regret the title, perhaps it came out a bit offensive to all you patriots out there.

Perhaps?

Oh and the fact that you ask 'who the fuck wants to go to Brazil anyway' just shows your fucking ignorance, that country is beautiful and I really recommend going there.

I asked that??  Where??  Point it out now please.  Because you can't seem to fucking read if you think I wrote that.

It's not just waiting 10 minutes to go on the plane, apparently there had been checks like that on American cruisers that had taken 2 hours.

That's not new, I went on a cruise 4 years ago and it took that long to clear customs.  Cruise ships that stop in other nations always have to go through customs and pay duty.  My sister's last cruise took 4 hours to clear customs, and that was before 9/11 as well.  All depends on how many on the cruise, and how many border agents on duty.

I'm really fucking disappointed with the whole lot of you idiots who take this offensively, I thought you'd know better than to think I was anti-American, I love America, and Americans, I really do, I might love Sweden more but still.

I'm really fucking disappointed in you for writing it too.  It was insulting and the title says it all to me.  Sorry, but I don't find some things funny.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Bucc, you sound like one of the newly-termed "South Park Republicans" - people who may vote for the GOP as the "lesser of 2 evils" etc etc.

Actually, I voted for Gore as the lesser of two evils, not Bush.  I hate Bush more than most of you guys.  It's the slagging of American I don't stomach.  Non-republicans can be patriotic as well you know.

Bush has a lot wrong, especially on religious issues (IMHO), but who's the alternative? Dean (with his angry rhetoric)? Kerry (who by the way served in Vietnam)? I think perhaps the best would be Liberman, but he's not near the front anyway.

Right now, nobody has my vote.  I hope the reformists come up with someone good.  Jesse the Body for Prez?  He'd probably get my vote over these other losers.  

["Sixhits"]

Wow,
I find it repugnant when people dare to compare America today to Nazi Germany. Its not just stupid and uninformed to make those kindof comparisons, it also displays a monstrous lack of taste....
Equating the victims of nazi atrocities with non-US citizens who have to wait in line and get their picture and prints taken....hmm.

First point: No one equated America with Nazi Germany. And just to make it clear, I think the US has little in common with Nazi Germany these days.

The loose equation, which was kidding on the square (means, joking, but joking in half-truths) is that Bush's policies and actions are remeniscent of those of Hitlers. If you'd like it simpler, Bush is acting in some of the same ways Hitler acted.

A very important and explicit comparison between Bush and the Republican Party's activities and Hitler's and the Nazi party's activies lies under the manufacturing of consent and the marginalization of dissent.

Sure, Bush's isn't rounding up Jews, invalids, gypsys, and gays and killing them. But, he is waging a war of aggression in Iraq after misleading the public about the threats of our supposed enemies (much like Hitler did in regards to Ceckosolvakia and Poland). The comparison is not literaly a one for one transfers of meaning: Hitler clearly had different purposes for waging war than Bush does, for example. The comparison comes under the themes of "liar and aggressor".

When Bush called Democrats in the Sentate or Congress unpatriotic because they disagreed with him for trade union protections in the Bill that created the Homeland Security agency he was acting like Hitler. When Bush lied to the American people about why this country went to war, he was acting like Hitler. When Bush buried investigations that might turn out badly for him, like the 9/11 commision or the Valarie Plume CIA leak investigation, but turned around and assaulted people like Paul O?Neill who are critical of the Administration and were, indeed, once part of it, he's acting like Hitler.

Bush is not nearly as bad as Hitler.

He is starting down that road. That's the point.

If you don't like the Hitler comparision (and the point of the comparision is to both disgust you and draw a comparison pointing out where we could end up) then subsitute Any Dictator with Hitler.

As for a lack of taste, that's a matter of opinion. I think it's tasteless, to say the least, for someone to support Bush these days. I think it was more than tasteless - it was treasonious - when people on the Right criticized those on the Left's patriotism during a debate about going to war. It's treasonous because Debate is a cornerstone of Democracy. Further, it's hypercrtical of the Right and Bush to criticize people when they practice Democracy whilst simultaneously professing to criticize their practice so that they may spread Democracy. It in fact reveals that they have no interest in Democracy persay, just an interest in co-opting the mental potentcy of the Ideal of Democracy in order to carry out their dreams of enhanced Power. It reminds me of Hitler's manipulations in the early years of his Chancellorship.

Finally, no one equated the "victims" of Bush's policies to those victims of the Holocaust or Hitler's wars. No one. That's your comparison.

Waiting in line sucks. But it's not waiting in line to be gased.

What is remenicent of Hitler is that each and every foreigner is being treated like an enemy. In fact, to simply, Bush treats everyone who differs from him as an enemy. Each and every foreigner is being finger printed and their information goes into a vast database. It'll likely help bust a few bad guys - that's good. But it's also marginalizing every single non-American who comes into the US. It makes them feel like crimminals, it makes them look like crimminals, and it costs them more money and time. In the scheme of things, one man being delayed and finger printed isn't much. But tens if not hundreds of thousands ... It is a Big Deal. It puts Security over Liberty. As a patriot it is my Duty to question my government and my president when he does things I think are un-American. I will do so in the strongest terms. If he doesn't like it I hope he resigns.

[westamastaflash]

Bucc, I'm with ya. Jesse the Body all the way!

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Sixhits, the problem I have with your analogy isn't that it's wrong, but that you could have found many a leader closer to Bush than Hitler.

Yes, I hate the Patriot Act, and think the Bush is slime, but you could have compared him to so many others that don't share the other history of Hitler, couldn't you?

Using Hitler is a great way to get an emotional response, but not a good way to get an intelligent one.

Hell, Stalin is a better analogy to Bush right now.  No war but also, Hitler boosted the German economy, brought them back from ruin.  Not so with Bush or Stalin.  

Bush is a fascist, just compare him to another fascist besides Hitler.

["Sixhits"]

That's a very tellign point.

I guess I want the emotional reactions because I have an emotional reaction.

[kami]

Bucc I wasn't pointing it to you directly, you weren't the one saying all of that, and there was someone who said it would only take 10 minutes extra, I just relayed what I had read about it. You should stop acting as if you have a pack of goats up your ass.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

As soon as you stop acting like you'd enjoy that particular fetish.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

To keep on topic, found this article:

RIO DE JANEIRO, Jan. 12 (Xinhuanet) -- A top level Brazilian judge Monday ordered the suspension of fingerprinting and photographing operations for US citizens arriving in Rio de Janeiro.

The President of the Federal Tribunal of the First Region, judge Catao Alves, took the decision on the grounds that "fears of terrorist attacks is not part of the national life" of Brazil, as is the case in the United States.

The measures would also "cause millions of dollars in losses due to the lack of US tourists," he said.

For the time being, the suspension will only apply to Rio de Janeiro, the only Brazilian city appealing the judicial decision for the entry-control measure on visiting US citizens.

Brazilian judge Juler da Silva last Wednesday ordered US citizens entering Brazil to be photographed and fingerprinted in response to similar requirements Washington imposed on Brazilian travelers.

The US Department of Homeland Security officially launched on Jan. 5 the US-VISIT (US Visitor and Immigrant Status Indicator Technology) program at 115 airports and 14 cruise ship port terminals.

Under the program fingerprints and photographs of visitors on US visas will be taken and checked instantly against a national digital database to prevent terrorists from entering the country.

Visitors from 27 countries, mostly European nations, are exempt from the program as they are allowed to enter the United States without a visa for up to 90 days. Brazil is not exempt.

So I guess America is "disowned"?

[iblisajinn]

Sure, Bush's isn't rounding up Jews, invalids, gypsys, and gays and killing them. But, he is waging a war of aggression in Iraq after misleading the public about the threats of our supposed enemies (much like Hitler did in regards to Ceckosolvakia and Poland). The comparison is not literaly a one for one transfers of meaning: Hitler clearly had different purposes for waging war than Bush does, for example. The comparison comes under the themes of "liar and aggressor".

Bush is not nearly as bad as Hitler.

He is starting down that road. That's the point.

If you don't like the Hitler comparision (and the point of the comparision is to both disgust you and draw a comparison pointing out where we could end up) then subsitute Any Dictator with Hitler.

First - considering that almost any dictator you can think of to name wantonly kills his own citizens without due process, I would think that Bush is automatically disqualified from those ranks as he has singularly failed to execute people for political dissent.

Second - Mr. Bush is also disadvantaged compared to any number of dictators in having a legislature through which he must work to draft legislation and see it through to law, plus a nearly balanced supreme judiciary that must approve the legislation that passes.

With regards to "a war of agression in Iraq..." - the war in Iraq is and has been national policy for over five years, since the  Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998 was passed overwhelmingly by Congress and signed into law by then-President Clinton.  Since that time, it has neither been challenged nor amended, and represents the desire of the nation.

With regards to the former Treasury Secretary:
Mr O'Neill seems to be retreating from and/or retracting many of the statements made by Mr. Suskind in his book, and stated he would probably vote for Mr. Bush in November.  As someone previously mentioned on this forum, it is somewhat dangerous to accept the word of a disgruntled former employee on his former employer's practices.

On dictators in general:
My parents fled the establishment of a dictatorial regime because my family was employed by the previous government - as such, their options were (a) flee, (b) get sent to a reeducation camp for the next decade, or (c) meet Mr. 7.62mm.  As neither of the latter options was particularly attractive, they chose the former.  Mr. Bush, for all of the criticisms leveled against him, has yet to even approach the abuse of power from which my family fled.

Apologies if in snipping I left out something I sought to address.

["Sixhits"]

He is starting down that road. That's the point.

That's really the kernel of what I'm stating.

Bush isn't killing Americans. But, he is imprisoning citizen's and withholding their rights to a trial by their peers, as well as denying them consul. It's not the same thing as offering up those he disagrees with a bullet, but it's the same path.

Again, my favorite quote:

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." Ben Franklin

Bush is making it one of the essences of his defence against terrorism that he take away basic civil liberties.

Worse, Bush is on record stating he believes Americans need fewer freedoms and that he believes his job would be easier if he were dictator.

The artful prose of the enacted Patriot Act and the proposed Patriot II are direct reductions in the individual security of each citizen versus the overt rights of the state. They make it clear that the President considers our safety more important than our liberty. I disagree.

Much like Hitler did, Bush makes policy that reduces citizen's rights. Right now, he's targeted immigrants and Muslims, and has begun to target all foreigners in general. There are thousands of people in prison right now who have no lawyer, no right to speak with their family, and few people in the public eye speaking out for them. If they are all truly guilty of some crime then Bush should try them. If they are considered dangerous, then they still have the right to be represented. If they are terrorists, kill them or turn them or throw them in jail ... AFTER a fair trial.

The rule of Force must never be allowed to trump the rule of Law, even if the argument is that Force is needed to protect us. Your family saw what happens when force trumps law. That is the road down which Bush has taken us. He is acting like a dictator and he is doing it right in front of us.

As for O'Neill, I think his remarks need to be taken with a grain of salt. But, I believe the proof is in the pudding - look how the Administration responds to his book, one which is ciritcal of Bush, versus Bob Woodward's overly praising book BUSH AT WAR. Both cite secret documents which where handed over to them legaly by the administration. Because Bush is displeased by O'Neill's book he's trying to have him put into jail. There is a vast disconnect with the administration's response between these two incredably similar processes. And just because O'Neill says he wished he's never spoken the remark that Bush was a blind man in a room full of deaf people, doesn't mean he's making a retraction of all the points he makes in his book.

As for the war in Iraq, support for the policy of regime change is not the same as support for the process by which it was done. Bush mislead us all by laying cause for invasion at the foot of WMDs. He lied to us when he stated and implied on numerous occasions as did his people that we were at imminent threat from Saddam. It's just so much poppycock. But more than that, it was calculated, planned, and exectuted.

Bush is not a dictator yet. But he's been eager to run his office as if he were one. Manipulating facts and lying to the public go hand in hand with politics. But when it comes to things of import and magnitude like War, to find our leader both blatantly misleading and unappologetic for it is disguisting. To continue to lie and spin and slander those that speak out is as far as I'm concerned repugnant. It smack of dictators. It brings forth memories of Germany before the Nazis ruled precisely because, and this is important to note and often over looked, the Nazis were voted into office. Hitler was elected Chancelor.

I am not comparing Bush to Hitler, I am comparing their process. I am critiquing similarities. I am noting the fearsome qualities within thier approaches that make me shudder with terror for the future.