Is there a God? / Plagiarism in the forum

[tasty]

Although this seems a rather odd subject for a message board, I'll chime in my two cents. I was raised in a liberal christian church and although I took a few years off as an atheist I have slowly been finding my way back in. I still have reservations, especially when I consider all the awful things done in the name of religion. Yet all those things were done by people, not by religion. Religion has a lot of potential -- to make people behave ethically, love their fellow man, and seek social justice.

What draws me to religion is a vague belief in a higher power. There is a lot of philosophical thought that to back this up. I see the bible as a spiritual guide, but recognize that it is written by humans and reflects the cultural norms of its time. I believe that a historical figure named Jesus did exist, but I find a literal ressurection and some of the other dogma a bit hard to believe. Not all my religious beliefs are fully formulated -- I've gone through many changes, and am very likely to go through more as I learn more and make more decisions about what I believe. Right now, the main meaning religion has for me is service -- I do a lot of community service with a local church and I think it's a genuinely beautiful thing. Religion for me has no circles of exclusion as many of you have complained about. The critiques that many of you provided deal with very specific questions that seem to have frustrated you. I don't think religion is here to solve all our problems. The bible cannot answer all your questions. At some point, you just need to have faith.

At the same time, I have serious problems with most religious people. Specifically, evangelicals, fundamentalists of any type, and anyone who wants to bring specifically religious ethics into the rule of law. I am a strict church-state separatist. Christianity in America has been coopted by bigoted idiots -- when most people think of christians, they think of morons like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. The bible cannot be interpreted literally. It's a historical document about the development of christianity that is largely metaphorical. There are many oppressive things in it that reflect the times, including supposedly "anti-gay" scripture, slavery, oppression of women and the like. To support things like this in the name of God is wrong and disgusting.

[spike]

I would state that, yes, I do believe in God. I cannot imagine living on this earth for no purpose, wasting my on a small planet in a vast ocean of dead space. If I believed there was not any higher power or any meaning to my life, what would be the point of living? It is comforting to believe that someone is watching over us. I believe that I will be able to live my life as a better person if I have a strong faith in a higher power. Both as a force to set me on the right path, and something to compare myself to.

While the above may sound like the rantings of a religous fundamentalist, keep in mind that I was raised an Espicopalian(see, I can't even spell it) and that I seldom attend church anymore. I am also not a simpleton, who accepts whatever is told to him. These beliefs are things that have been percolating at the back of my mind for my short 17 years.

[Mr.Mellow]

Well, I guess I believe in God, but since He/She hasn't revealed Himself/Herself to me yet, I can't say I know He/She exists. I don't go around saying "FUCK GOD!" or "I hate Christians" or "Fuck Towelheads" or anything like that, I try to be respectful of other people's beliefs. I do, however, think that a good 95% of Christians are hypocrites. Christianity teaches it's followers to be tolerant of others, respectful of other religions, not to kill your fellow man, and not to judge, etc. Now, I know that there's intolerance in other religions as well, but it clearly states in the Bible not to kill and to be tolerant of other religions. Just seems kinda funny how people run around calling themselves Christians, yet don't follow the basics of their own religion. Anyways, I'm done ranting. Didn't mean to offend anyone, and if I did, I'm sorry.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

For sake of comparison I've compiled a short list of interesting quotes from the Bible, Koran, George W. Bush and Osama Bin Laden.

"We come before God to pray for the missing and the dead, and for those who loved them.... Our purpose as a nation is firm, yet our wounds as a people are recent and unhealed and lead us to pray.... This world he created is of moral design. Grief and tragedy and hatred are only for a time. Goodness, remembrance, and love have no end, and the Lord of life holds all who die and all who mourn.... Neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities, nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth can separate us from God's love." - George W. Bush

"Tyrants and dictators will accept no other gods before them. They require disobedience to the First Commandment. They seek absolute control and are threatened by faith in God. They fear only the power they cannot possess -- the power of truth. So they resent the living example of the devout, especially the devotion of a unique people chosen by God." - George W. Bush
 
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother..." - Matthew 10:34-35 (AV)

"... all who are under the yoke of slavery ... who have believing masters ... must serve all the better since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. If any one teaches otherwise ... he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy..., which produce envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among men who are depraved in mind..." - I Timothy 6:1-5 (RSV)

"I'm fighting so I can die a martyr and go to heaven to meet God. Our fight now is against the Americans." - Osama bin Laden

"Here is America struck by God Almighty ... so that its greatest buildings are destroyed ... I swear to God that America will not live in peace before peace reigns in Palestine, and before the army of the infidels depart the land of Mohammed." - Osama bin Laden

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement..." -The Koran [5.33]

"Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve." -The Koran [5.73]

The only logical conclusion of a struggle between two religious radicals with contrasting faiths is annihilation. Should the future of humanity rest on faith?

[elite]

Although I do think this is a weird topic this is what I think.

"You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you, says the Lord."

No, the Lord has not revealed himself to someone yet, but you must have faith in order to believe that he is our creator.

Our universe is so complex one can only think of a certain "superior one"  For example our earth it is a perfect size, the Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases over the surface of the earth. Only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface, our atmosphere contains the right mixture of gases to sustain life. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere appropriate for plant, animal and human life.  Our earth is also exactly the right distance from the sun if you consider the temperature.

Our water although displayes no color, or taste, no being on the planet can survive without it.  Our planet is the only one known with this substance.It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point, allowing us to live in an environment of constant temperature changes, keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. Take a full glass of water, add a cup of sugar, and nothing spills over the edge; the water simply absorbs the sugar. This property of water allows it to carry thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.(6)

Water is also chemically inert, not affecting the makeup of the substances it carries. Food, medicines and minerals are all absorbed and used by the body, while water remains as a neutral carrying agent.

Water has a unique surface tension. This, combined with another property of water, allows water in plants to flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, allowing fish to live in the winter.  Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that has sustained life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

My last example is the human brain. "Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could create a human brain."The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Fortunately, your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function of the brain is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information . . . can we say mere chance assembled such an astounding organ?

Another point is the inherent sense of right and wrong cannot be biologically explained.  Why is it that their is a universal code that says murdering for fun is wrong.

God has not revealed us to him but he shows us him in the Bible.  Archaeological findings continue to confirm the accuracy of the Bible, rather than refute it. For example, an archeological find in northern Israel in August 1993 confirmed the existence of King David, author of many of the Psalms in the Bible. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archaeological discoveries continue to substantiate the historical accuracy of the Bible.

cheers,
elite

[c| Hathcock]

But Elite, if the Earth had not evolved this way than we would not be having this conversation.  This somewhat goes back to my belief of religion being an explanation.  We don't quite have the means yet to research our universe in extreme detail but it is coming.  The big bang theory is an early attempt at a scientific explanation that will take years to prove or come up with an alternative.  Should I pray to a god who has much less proof of existence in the mean time?

And if you look at apes you can tell fairly easily tell where our brain comes from.  It was just a matter of time, not some mythical being.  

And some people have no sense of right or wrong.  Does God just skip some people to piss the rest of us off by having them kill the innocent?  Your inherent sense of right or wrong is imbued at childhood by ones parents, its not in your genes.

And our lovable water was created when two hydrogen sisters met an oxygen male and they lived happily ever after as a married threesome.  (Don't you all wish you were as lucky as oxygen guys?)  It was a matter of chemistry, not a manifestation of some ideological superpower.

[elite]

And if you look at apes you can tell fairly easily tell where our brain comes from.  It was just a matter of time, not some mythical being.  

And our lovable water was created when two hydrogen sisters met an oxygen male and they lived happily ever after as a married threesome.  (Don't you all wish you were as lucky as oxygen guys?)  It was a matter of chemistry, not a manifestation of some ideological superpower.

True, however where did the ape brain start.  Was it made out of magical wand dust... no it was not, the brain must have been constructed before it began evolving.

Can science explain why every human needs molecules of water.  Why not hydrochloric acid or a different combination of hydrogen and oxygen?

[Mr.Mellow]

Scientists are pretty ignorant when it comes to knowing what exactly organisms need to live/survive/thrive/etc. There could be life on many other planets, but because scientists are just looking for signs of water, oxygen, and the proper amount of sunlight, I'm positive they've overlooked quite a few places. For example, scientists said that there must be sunlight for life. This was proven false when an entire ecosystem was found at the very bottom of the ocean around an underwater volcano/vent sorta thing where methane gas and such was spewing out of.
Anyways, I'm getting off-topic. Elite, the ape brain came from a long period of evolution. The brain was not constructed before it began evolving. Nature simply kept changing and adding onto the brain until it became what it is today.

[tasty]

The only logical conclusion of a struggle between two religious radicals with contrasting faiths is annihilation. Should the future of humanity rest on faith?

Those quotes are interesting, but they don't really prove all that much. Yes, there are radicals in religion, but there are radicals in almost any belief system or ideology. The vast majority of Christians and Moslems do not espouse such radical beliefs. And although I agree with you wholeheartedly that Bush is not a very good president, I don't think his views are extreme as you make them out to be. Religion in one form or another has existed for almost the entire history of man, and we have yet to annihalate one another.  Here you are just using religion as a scapegoat. Quoting the very worst elements of any movement is not at all an accurate way to represent them.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

We live in an age where total and utter annihilation is a grim possibility, generations before have not been faced with such a crude reality. This is a world where the ingredients for disaster can be concocted with relative ease. Accurate representations of Christianity and Islam were not my aim, that would require more typing than I can afford myself to. My aim was to simply point out that there will never be resolution to this conflict. You say the very worst elements are Bush and Osama? It was my understanding that each is revered in the light of their respective followers. I tend to break things down into a more black and white manner, in that way it is less difficult to understand the underlying truth.

[tasty]

My aim was to simply point out that there will never be resolution to this conflict. You say the very worst elements are Bush and Osama? It was my understanding that each is revered in the light of their respective followers.

Fewer than 10% of Moslems believe the same things as Osama does. Somehow I don't think that they are about to bring about the end of humanity. Your concern on this issue is warranted, however the extent to which you are taking it seems a bit paranoid.

I tend to break things down into a more black and white manner, in that way it is less difficult to understand the underlying truth.

My point was that the underlying truth is that these issues are not and cannot be black and white. You are right that there will never be resolution to different religions, but I don't think it is a cause for catastrophic concern.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Spetsnaz is right. Weapons powerful enough to kill every human on Earth have been in existence for only about three generations. It simply wasn't possible for even the most devotedly genocidal groups to kill everyone. The advantage of such weapons was that they were obvious and by their nature, difficult for anything smaller than a government to wield. The tenuous balance of mutual annihilation kept those weapons from being used. Now we have weapons which can kill a city, and possibly a nation, and which are man-portable, stealthy, and relatively cheap to develop and construct. Biological weapons are what will finally put the capacity for efficient genocide within the reach of many fanatic groups.

     Elite, terrestrial biology uses water as a medium because it is plentiful and has numerous chemical properties which make it highly efficient for biological purposes. Life tends towards maximal efficiency in terms of design. Life is expensive, so the most efficient designs tend to prosper because they can do more with less energy. Why aren't humans 10 meters tall? Because we don't need to be to survive--it would simply waste energy.

[elite]

I hope you fools believe in God because if you make the mistake, and their is one, and you  do not choose him as your Lord and Savior, you will spend eternity in Hell, with the most evil thing that is 10 times worse than human kind can imagine.  But if you do follow him, you will live in paridise for eternity.  The choice is yours.


cheers,
elite

[-SW- Baz]

When comparing religions, there are usually two considerations:

Logic and Revelation

Logic is the human thought process that displays how much "sense" a religion makes. Logic also co-insides and checks Revelation. Revelation is the amount of revealing a religion's god has revealed to them. The best religion is the one with the most logic AND revelation.

A good example: Way back when the Modern Church of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) first started, a man called John Smith went around preaching how Native Americans were actually Israelites who canoed across the Atlantic Ocean and settled America. He claimed God revealed this to him, and God gave him two golden tablets for the Faith.

Now, this belief system is ENTIRELY Revelation, because one must blindly believe what John Smith tells you. It really doesn't make any logical sense because there is no hard proof behind any of it. (He was never able to produce the golden tablets)

Im not bashing Mormons (in fact i think they're some of the most honest people around these days), but the religion is entirely based upon Revelation rather than Logic.

The best religion is the one with the most Logic AND Revelation on their side.

-BaZ

[c| Spetsnaz.]

Tasty, my naturally pessimistic ways prevent me from sharing your optimistic view of humanity. The unexpected and unthinkable often become reality as time takes its course. Paranoia is often the difference between survival and demise. I admit suffering from psychotic paranoia but it keeps me company when im alone.

Elite, if there is a hell and sins send you there, then we're all burnin. Wake up. All the fun stuff in life is a sin anyways, so how bad could hell be?

Baz, you can pick up your free copy of The Book of Mormon by contacting your local The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints like I did.

[Ace]

I'm Catholic.

I'm mostly going to stay out of this argument, but I do have one bone to pick. A bunch of people are talking about how organized religion is bad because of the stuff purportedly done in its name. Now, maybe I was hungover during the homily covering this, but last time I checked Christianity does not condone violence, war, etc. Ditto for basically every major religion (except a few sects of Islam from my limited knowledge of it). Now, given this fact, how can you blame organized religion for the actions of some whackos? If I went out and killed a Windows luser in the name of Steve Jobs, would Apple all of a sudden be evil?

[Blitz]

Here is my two cents. In The Simpsons, Homer finds out that there is no God by doing tax reforms.  Some people believe certain religions are CULTS.  I believe there is an upper-being, but not sure why... Most of the people that are religious are because of troubles in their life.  When they think they have no hope left, they go to a religious place to find guidance.

An example is today, I was walking in Denver (16th Street Mall), and this guy had a sign that read "Jesus Saves" and was chanting "Be saved from fire and brimstone!"

I think he was a loon, then again they were a block away from a christian science store. Heh.  That is my 2 cents.

Blitz

[Cossack]

Here is a quote from Andrichones and the Lion (or however it is spelled). A Christian is about to be killed in Rome and a centurian asks her why she is willing to die and beleive in something she cant understand. She tells the Centurian that if her mind can understand god than he is not worth beleiving in. This is the beleif I take when I hear other religions explaining god to the letter of the law.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Ace, there is a difference between the Word of God and the agencies which enforce and relay that Word on Earth. The Bible says to be peaceful and groovy, but the Church said to go to the Holy Land and kill Muslims for fouling Jerusalem, and thus the Crusades were on. Believers in a church are tools of that church. Believers in a faith, and the faith itself, are a different matter entirely, and I'm not talking about them.

[*NADS Lo$eMoney]

I just don't feel that I should have blind faith in something that has purposefully caused just as much pain in life as good.  Should I be thankful and praise a creator that causes strife in the majority of existence.  Maybe I should curse the bastard and not thank him.

Do you enjoy life?  I mean looking into the eyes of your new born child, or sharing your dreams and passions with one you love, or simply playing your favorite video game, or tasting your favorite candy bar are all simple yet wonderful moments that evoke such powerful feelings inside people.  I like to look at life as a gift, I mean I have the oppurtunity to feel such amazing things that I wouldn't be able to if I was dead, and I believe all of the pain and suffering I endure is worth just those simple moments of tenderness.  I do admitt I've had an easier life than a lot of people, but I've been through a lot more than the average person.  I have no religious affiliations, but I would have to say I do love god (or whatever it is out there) for the gift of existance.  It kind of reminds me of the question is it better to have loved and lost then to never have loved at all?