Bush Goes to Iraq!

[ak-47]

1811694, your post speaks more about your ignorance than I have to point out. Educate yourself further on the topic and you will find the propaganda harder to swallow.

Cutter, I agree, If Cheney and Rumsfeld took control it would be the start of the Apocalypse. Honestly though, have you ever heard Bush make a speech? If that isn't enough to convince you he is unfit to be the MOST POWERFUL MAN IN THE WORLD, then I don't know what is.
 
To quote the man himself:
 "This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while." -George W. Bush

To be fair and balanced here's a quote from the other side:
"Here is America struck by God Almighty ... so that its greatest buildings are destroyed ... I swear to God that America will not live in peace before peace reigns in Palestine, and before the army of the infidels depart the land of Mohammed." -Osama Bin Laden

[Cutter]

and oh yeah...FREE TOMMY CHONG!. americas drug policy should worry you more than it's towelhead policy. in some states you can have merely a seed, stem , or residue trace of weed and be convicted of a felony. that means you can never vote or be a lawfull gun owner, until you can hire a good lawyer years down the road and hope to get those rights back. and in states that have the three strike law people like us could get a life sentence. just for smokin weed. sad ain't it?  and it isn't just the "republican regime" spetz...i lost a year of my life and many rights givin to every american while clinton was in office. i was around your age when it happened. that's the fight you should be going after, thats a war i'd like to win

[ak-47]

Cutter, agreed, check this out if  you havent already http://www.guerrillanews.com/crack/qt_hi.html , props to Revolt for the linkage.

[c| Hathcock]

The very reason we do not in any circumstance agree to a terrorists demands is that once you do you have set a precedent.  And every terrorist will expect to get his goals met.  And in my opinion, you will not see terrorism go away.  It will grow.  And that same group you appeased will be so proud of themselves that they will start up again to get more.  

If you want an example just look at North Korea.  I'm not associating N.K. with terrorism just an analogy.  Clinton appeased them, he gave them food, and they halted their nuclear ambitions.  So what happens?  They keep it going in secret.  But when we find out and stop our shipments of aid, they complain of this great injustice and start negotiating for even more aid to stop their programs.  When does it stop?

I see what you're saying and if everyone was level-headed, and had common sense it would work.  The problem is the majority of the world is not a nice place.  Radicals and dictators whose only ambition in life is to rule over everyone else control a lot of it.  And they don't give two shits about human rights, just furthering their own agendas.  you can never stop a man like that through appeasement.  And you spoke of learning from history.  Well what did Europe do in the 1930's?  They appeased a madman and look what it got them.  5 of the bloodiest years in the history of the world.  

And in regards to Sweden.  Why would they?  They get nothing out of it.  But somebody has to be the big kid on the block so he is the one everbody targets.  It does not matter what are foreign policies really are in the most part.  To people like Osama, the United States is the example of everything they hate.  Like Freedom, woman with power, and everything else their radical beliefs disagree with.  All Sweden looks like to them is a bank.  And they have money so whats the point?  

To close, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have been probably the least bloody the warld has known.  Yes innocents have died.  Thats a given in war.  But the casualties on both sides have been minor compared to virtually any other war.  It still sucks but until the entire world comes to it's senses and realizes that force will not get you anything when there are those to oppose you, then war will always be a possibility.  

Oh and Ak, I know a few hundred people personally who went, and they suport the war.  Would they like to go back?  Not really but they will, and I willl join them.  Their are actually worse things in this world than war.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

I see your point and it makes sense. The only point I have to make is that the so called war against terrorism is doomed to fail if it is continued in its current manner.

In the United States the culprit can often be found by following the money. Let me be frank, money is what makes this country go around. What is more important in an election year than the economy? Nothing. What is one of the best things for an ailing economy? War. What is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in America? The military industrial complex. And what does the military industrial complex need to survive? War. This is just my opinion, I will admit to having a more pessimistic view of life, but the truth is more often than not the unthinkable.

In regards to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq being the least bloody in history, Im not sure about the figures but im pretty sure Bush senior's war back in 91' had less deaths.

There are worse things in this world than war? Off the top of my head, I can't think of  many. Perhaps STD's and famine, but are those really worse than war? I have the utmost respect for anyone who has ever served for this country. Where my respect runs thin, is for those who are in Washington making decisions in the interest of personal gain, rather than for the betterment of this country.
 
I leave you with one final thought, how many troops have to die for it to be apparent that this war cannot be won? 10,000? 15,000? 20,000? or will our government as it did in Vietnam, realize that this war cannot be won until some 55,000 plus die?

[c| Hathcock]

I agree with you that money makes this world go round.  Hell, Economy was one of the only classes I really felt was worthwhile in high school.  And it is also true that war brings out the best in the economy.  The great depression ended due to WW2, and this one has undoubtedly helped in pulling us out of this recession.  But I have to believe that this was fought for a greater purpose than that.  I know Bush has pulled some shady things like every president, but to me Sadaam did represent a true threat to the world so I don't believe the conspiracy theorists when it comes to this.  

And the occupation of Iraq has turned out much like the occupations of Germany and Japan.  Newspaper reports from the time paint pretty much the same picture that we are seeing in the new now so I know this is a battle that can be won.  It just takes time.  The only militants in Iraq are the Sunni minority that had a cushy life under Sadaam and the normal radicals that hate everything American.  Hopefully we will see a change once the Iraqi's begin to truly govern themselves and the Iraqi people understand our true intentions as right now they have every right to be skeptical.

To me the things that are worse than war do not necessarily cause death.  It's indiference, and not believing that there is nothing that is actually worth fighting for.  This may seem like an underdramitization but is there nothing that you personally have that you would fight for.  That you would rather die than give up?  Not necessarily just a pocession.  

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Geez, I've been away all weekend and come back to THIS!  I'm really much too mad to post anything right now.....I'll come back later after I calm down a bit.

-GhostSniper Out.

[Fridge!]

okay hathcock, come on, I think you've been way too blinded by propoganda.  The war in Iraq is not a war on terrorism, do you know of the means through which they conveyed that message to the public?  Let me inform you, George Bush asks a speechwriter to develop a link between Al-Qaida and Iraq so that they can develop it as a war on terrorism, and what they come up with is the Axis of Evil theory.  Let me give you the gist of it... Through the axis of evil theory there is a direct link between Al-Qaida and Iraq as Al-Qaida doesn't like the united states, and lo and behold, neither does Iraq, poof, Iraq is definitely involved in terrorism against the united states throught that crystal clear connection.  There was no terrorism coming from Iraq to the United States, George Bush used sept 11th to achieve his goals, he used it to get the support he needed and previously couldn't obtain without the patriotic anger and desire for retribution that the events of that day sparked.  

[Cutter]

a couple numbers to keep things in perspective. first, any life lost (on either side) is terrible. however, until nations start learning from us and start cb'ing for bragging rights. war and death is how they do it.

WWI - 112,432 american soldiers dead.
           $112 billion spent (how much would that be now?)

WWII - 300,000 american soldiers dead.
            $2 trillion+ (again, how much would that be now?)

American civil war - 620,000 american soldiers dead

Vietnam war - 58,000 dead american soldiers (3,000 per day)
                      $40 billion

War in Afghanistan and Iraq - less than 600 dead american soldiers.
                     $120 billion and counting

like i said every single life on either side is horribly tragic. but  people need to stop comparing iraq to vietnam. there really is no comparison. the difference is the constant news coverage of every single injury and death that occurs on the battlefield. think about that for a minute....less than 600 dead in two years compared to 3000 dead every single day.

[Cutter]

and fridge, i remember bush saying after 9/11... that anybody who provides shelter or support for terrorists, is just as bad as the terrorist and will behunted down and taken out.
how long did it take for saddam after that speech to announce a $15,000 gift to the family of suicide bombers in israel? i also remember that within two weeks after that, saddam raised it to $25,000.

thats's just about all i'd need to go into iraq.

lets not forget that clinton was the one who pulled the inspectors out just to launch some missles into iraq. (with-out going to the U.N. first) , bush did at least try to go through the U.N. which in reality was just a nice gesture that back-fired in his face. (FTF!)

[c| Spetsnaz.]

I truly hope there will be no obvious similarities between Iraq and Vietnam, I fear this country could not take another tragic event on the scale of Vietnam. The parallels I draw between the two however, are that in each instance (in my opinion) they are doomed causes. Like in Vietnam the leadership of today has vowed to never give up.

Another comparison that in my opinion is justified, is the fact that in Iraq as in Vietnam we are facing an enemy on their home turf. We are facing a similar style of guerilla tactics, that were applied very effectively against our traditional military style. Time will tell.

Its too late to pull out now, we are there and we must fix what we have disrupted. The things that I find unacceptable are that we went in without multinational support and we had no actual plan for what to do after deposing Sadaam.This lack of forethought will ultimately doom this war to failure.
 

[jn.loudnotes]

Cutter - maybe your stats are a little off. . .I wasn't alive back then, so I can't speak for sure, but your numbers on the Vietnam war don't match up.  3000 a day for a total of 58000 would equate to only 20 days, and I know the war was longer than that. . .

Anyway, quick comment about Bush dead.  I think having Cheney in power would be a positive thing.  He's already running most of the show behind the scenes, so putting his machinations in the world view just might bring a bit of accountability.

[Cutter]

yeah you're right. i don't remember where i heard that, mb it was a different war. i was thinking mb korea which lasted 3 years with the close to the same number of dead. but even that wouldn't work out, by my math 15-20 per day in vietnam and 50-55 per day in korea. i have no idea where 3000 came from, i heard it somewhere recently though and it caught my attention. still in vietnam we lost 5800 per year and in korea we lost 20333 per year much different than 300 per year in iraq.
damn short-term memory

[Cossack]

Its around 600 and it hasnt been a year yet, but your point still stands. The rate and severity of the conflict of Iraq is very much different from Nam.

[c| Sssickboy]

--- Here is a pasted email I sent out today after viewing that crack video link. I think this is an appropriate place to add it in. ----

I've come upon some great quicktime videos from http://www.guerrillanews.com/:  
http://www.guerrillanews.com/redux/qt_hi.html
http://www.guerrillanews.com/crack/qt_hi.html

Personally,  I've read some really good material lately, books, webnews, some very reliable sources of material, and then others that are somewhat questionable but yet congruent with other reliable sources.  It's even occasionally apparent on national sources, tv, radio, and newspaper.  It's all really hard to fathom, because it is so against the grain of popular american belief.  But taken as a whole, it begins to add up.  Something is wrong.  And I don't believe the direction our world leaders are taking us is the solution we want for our future.  The reality of our situation is blurred by our leaders, and until the people can comprehend what is really happening the direction will never change.  

I still have interest in starting a web page that infuses art and politics.  However there are so many good ones popping up.  It's also just a matter of time.  

I still find that the best sources are:
http://www.moveon.org/
http://slate.msn.com//

And still my favorite, a great, enlightening book to read is "Rogue Nation: American Unilateralism & the Failure of Good Intentions" By Clyde Prestowitz

new found web page, all about george W:
http://www.thetruthaboutgeorge.com/

[macuser1984]

I just visited some of those web sites SICKboy, and I have to tell you that that is some of the biggest liberal bullshit I've ever seen.  Now, anyone who really thinks that what is contained in www.thetruthaboutgeorge.com is TRUE, you are the biggest idiot I've ever met.  Eat shit and die you fucking communist socialist cocksuckers.  I bet you cried the day the Soviet Union fell.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

lol!!! Bravo macuser1984!!!

[c| Sssickboy]

Chill out.  I don't preach that all these sights or info is the all knowing truth.  I breazed through there and saw this section where they excerpt news paper clippings. http://www.thetruthaboutgeorge.com/rogue/index.html

For my real news i go to the Onion.com.

How about you post a Bush lover link for me?

[*NADS Lo$eMoney]

Wow people get pretty angry at eachother for having different opinions.  No wonder there's so much war in the world.

[alaric]

Wow people get pretty angry at eachother for having different opinions.  No wonder there's so much war in the world.

Amen to that.