Difference Between Liberals and Conservatives

[BFG]

Hathcock i think the current number of Broken UN resolutions by Irael stands at 113 (i think).
Personally if i was palestinian and i lived in the same conditions in which they are living in now, and under the same brutality from israeli forces... Not being funny but i would do everything and anything to try and help defend my family and my country.

Lets face it. Nothing will be done about Israel because of the strong power of the jewish vote in America and the fact that the Administration would be extreamly unpopular.

Don't know if your guys media was allowed to tell you about this secret prison base they have found in israel (which the israeli's deny existing)... Its a bit like their equivelant of Gwantanamo (sorry shocking spelling) but there they tourture, electrocute, gang rape, and murder those unlucky enough to be chucked there.

Regarding Bosnia i think acri has a point - yes it could have gone a lot better, but the reasons for doing it were much clearer (no hidden agenda) and the country's involved really did try to help people rather than just secure some oil that they want to ship to their country so they can help pollute the rest of the world a bit more

[Cutter]

and yes, america hadn't paid their U.N. dues for a long time. it was in protest. just about every single resolution that america had put before the U.N. had been veto'd or been threatened to be veto'd by one country for many years. during the cold war russia had made it a point to give us trouble wherever they could, the U.N. was the only place they could. so then bush puts the order in to get current on our U.N. payments. only to have france threaten a veto on every single resoultion put up by the U.S. it's a huge joke! libya on the human rights commision, iraq almost on the disarmament commision and a security council that is made up of a bunch of countries whose only desire is to see each other fail. as i like to call it: L.O.N part 2

[c| Hathcock]

Acri, While we may start receiving oil sometime in the next decade from Iraq, how does it look for the three biggest importers of Iraqi oil to be the biggest critics of war?  Perhaps Europe thought more of Bosnia because its right next door as well?  Sadaam was as well known for killing his own people as Milosivitch was.  

Time is going to have to tell in Iraq I believe though.  At the end of World War 2, reconstruction of Japan, and Germany was also met with contempt by many of their citizens.  Nobody really remembers those days anymore of course but it has yet to be a year in Iraq, and it took many years to get Germany and Japan to trust us.  The modern generations just don't realize what real hardship used to be like.  They said we were bogged down in Iraq when in fact it was one of the fastest invasions ever if not the fastest.  The world has changed and has been without a major conflict for a long time.  Don't forget our past and what those wars were like with their tens of thousands of casualties.  I'm not saying even a single soldier, airman, sailor, or Marine dying is a good thing but in the history of the world that will follow I hope this can be viewed as a good and noble act.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

However, this whole Iraq thing is not wrong as such, it is just handled badly. I could care less about the UN.

I couldn't agree with you more on that statement Acri.  I always said he was doing the right thing, but for the wrong reasons.  And his motives and claims are what really casts a bad light on the whole thing.

Fah: The UN would die without US funding? Funny... I thought the US didn't pay anything to the UN until Bush came along. Maybe I'm wrong...

There are different ways of funding.  The US was withholding it's dues (along with quite a few other nations).  It was a political statement.  But they were still putting money into it.

I think american motives in iraq are questionable and they werent in bosnia. This is why i dont mind bosnia. It was never about stealing the resources of the oh-so-prosperous bosnians.

Anything is questionable.  Russia was saying that we were looking for a forward base back then.  And I don't think Iraq is going to be a case of stealing oil either.  If nothing else, it would be impossible with the focus of the world stage upon them.

I consider the US to be ignorant and proud.

Ignorant??  Bondo tried that one on me to.  If you look at the only real source for such things (The UN) You'll find that America has top scores for education (along with a handful of others, including European).  As a nation, we are not ignorant, but like all, we do have our share of dumbasses.  

I consider the US to shoulder too much credit for world affairs

I don't.  But the credit goes to the US because of Europe more than any other reason.  We weren't considered a world power at all before WW1.  We were a joke (yes, the French laughed at us).  Until our entry in the war really added enough mass to turn the tables.  WW2 was much the same.  The UK really knew we could help and wanted us there, but much of the world still thought we were a joke.  Then we mobilized over 4 million soldiers, not to mention fleets, tanks, planes, etc.  We were even making much of the equipment for other countries.

Face it, how many large issues has American gotten involved in and pushed to conclusion that wasn't happening before our involvement?  While that doesn't negate the efforts and contributions put forth by other countries, it does make for a bit of arrogance.  You'll also notice that the US doesn't bad mouth the UK about WW2, because they took on the battle even more than we did.  If it wasn't for them holding out, WW2 probably would have gone the other way.

I consider the US to take too little blame for their mistakes.

I think the US gets more than their share myself.  I think all countries try to duck the blame, I just think the Euro governments are better at it.

[Acri]

Buccaneer: You just said something very ignorant yourself. If you had given it some thought, you could conclude there are very few countries with good education. We have europe, some asians and north america. What does that add up to? 20 countries tops with good education? That's like saying "Dude we ended 15th in the DAMN league so stfu".
And being ignorant has very little to do with education anyhow.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Acri, your last sentence is wrong. To be ignorant is to lack knowledge. Imparting knowledge is the primary goal of education. A stupid person--that is, a person lacking intelligence--can acquire knowledge. On the other hand, one's intelligence can never change. A person with an I.Q. of 80 could get a Ph.D from the most challenging university curriculum in the world if they were willing to work hard enough. It would not mean that their intelligence had increased, but rather that they had gained knowledge.

     Ignorance depends entirely upon education.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

One more thing Arci, I think you missed the "top marks" part.  America didn't finish below anyone on education.  It had top marks, ie tied for first.  

Oh, and Europe isn't a country and different countries in Europe score differently.  

Anyway, in your analogy, it would be like 15 out of over a hundred tied for first.  But you were the one that called us ignorant, not the other way around.

Loth covered the rest better then I could.

[BFG]

Sorry was someone telling a hilarouse joke about America as a nation getting top scores for intellegance?

Hold on im just going to go outside to laugh my guts out. Oh tell me another one please please....

Oh my, you behave like your gods given gift, you wont teach the theory of evolution to kids in some states ( you tell them that god made the world in 7 days), you abandon the Kyoto agreement, you eletrocute, posion and gass your own citizens, you believe it is a persons right to own a gun... hell i don't have enough time to write it all..... Bust best of all... Look at your President! LOL I cant take it anymore plesase no.

Bravo Bravo well done well done.

[Acri]

omg of course I don't count europe as a country.

btw

Sweden has best welfare according to whoever it was. There are two ways of counting:

One way gives sweden the best
The other gives norway the best.

[BFG]

Acri please please, do tell where did america come?

[|MP|Buccaneer]

And wellfare has what to do with this conversation?

Sorry was someone telling a hilarouse joke about America as a nation getting top scores for intellegance?

Hold on im just going to go outside to laugh my guts out. Oh tell me another one please please....

BFG, thanks for showing a grand lack of intelligence and reading that wrong.

The word is IGNORANCE, and the discussion is it or the lack thereof.

Arci called us Americans IGNORANT.  As loth pointed out, there is a difference between Ignorance and Intelligence.  

What I pointed out was the UN numbers that showed that America's EDUCATION (as a nation) ranked at the top, along with other countries.  

Now EDUCATION is tied to IGNORANCE, you remove ignorance through education.  

Do ya get it now?

So both you and Acri show some ignorance in both how you've used the words, and how you've stereotyped America.  BTW BFG, how many students (give me a %) in all of American aren't taught evolution?  

And don't get me started on how you think the right to bare arms has anything to do with ignorance or intelligence, because you'll never be able to connect those dots.

[c| Hathcock]

Well Bfg, perhaps when evil people leave this world there will no longer be a reason for the death penalty and the right to bear arms.  For my tax dollars I would much rather save some cash and put someone to death who deserves it rather than kill him through a prison term anyway.  

Hell, i'll never go out in a major city without a form of protection.  Slam the US for that if you like, but there's not much to be done about those that don't give a shit about others.  Better to live and deal with the aftermath than be put 6 feet under.  But hey, you stop the guy with your fists if thats your choice.

I'll stay out of the rest of the arguments.  Bucc and Loth seem to have it well in havd.

[Brain]

i'd just like to point out as well that while America's primary and secondary education systems are being questioned here, our post secondary (i.e. collegiate level) institutions are with out a doubt among the best in the world

[Acri]

Indeed, Brain. Thanks.

[BFG]

Bucc:

THe Judeo-Christian conception is still the most popular theory of human nature in the United States. According to recent polls, 76 percent of Americans believe in the biblical account of creation, 79 percent believe that the miracles in the bible actually took place, 76 percent believe in angels, the devil, and other immaterial souls, 67 percent believe  they will exist in some form after their death, and only 15 percent believe that Darwin's theory of evolution is the best explanation for the origin of human life on earth. Politicians on the right embrace the religious theory explicitly, and no mainstream politician woul dare contradict it in public. But the modern sciences of cosmology, genology, biology, and archaeology have made it impossible for a scientificaly literate person to belive that the biblical story of creation actually took place. As a result, the Judeo-Christian thoery of human nature is no longer explicity avowed by most academics, journalists, social analysts, and other intellectually engaged people.

"God bless america"

Hath what you just said really amazes me. Evil people... evil? This mix of religon i finid extreamly disturbing - bush's statments about the crusade of good v evil are terrifying.
If you are happy to kill a person well i can find no way to understand that. How can a 'civilised' contry execute people... I find it hard to conetmplate how people can be prepared to do this. The fact that 100% of the people on death row are not guilty of the crimes they have been convicted of makes it even worse.

I would much rather save some cash and put someone to death"

- I can't find any words to answer that stament. I just feel sick.
An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth?

If that is the sort of society that you now life in when you feel you must carry a weapon then i am truely sorry - that is a terrible thing. Perhaps if you didn't feel it was your 'right' to carry a fire arm and they were made illigal then you might find there was less need for this sort of action.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

THe Judeo-Christian conception is still the most popular theory of human nature in the United States. According to recent polls, 76 percent of Americans believe in the biblical account of creation, 79 percent believe that the miracles in the bible actually took place, 76 percent believe in angels, the devil, and other immaterial souls, 67 percent believe  they will exist in some form after their death, and only 15 percent believe that Darwin's theory of evolution is the best explanation for the origin of human life on earth. Politicians on the right embrace the religious theory explicitly, and no mainstream politician woul dare contradict it in public. But the modern sciences of cosmology, genology, biology, and archaeology have made it impossible for a scientificaly literate person to belive that the biblical story of creation actually took place. As a result, the Judeo-Christian thoery of human nature is no longer explicity avowed by most academics, journalists, social analysts, and other intellectually engaged people.

BFG, nice quote, but I say "so what".  It has nothing to do with education or what is taught in schools.  Since CREATION isn't taught in schools.

You didn't answer my question.  I asked what % of American students aren't allowed to be taught evolution.  You responded with a percentage of Americans and their faith beliefs.  The two are not connected.  Your christian churches there teach the same as ours here.  And people still have their faith.  

[c| Hathcock]

I didn't refer to "evil" as any sort of biblical reference.  I'm not even a religious man myself.  Maybe next time I'll refer to them as "bad people"  And as for 100% of death row inmates being innocent, where do you get your information.  And I do happen to believe that in most cases, murdering someone makes your life forfeit.  So why the hell should I let you live for the rest of your life when you just ended someone else's w/ no reason?  Just does not appear logical to me.  This world is not a civilized place in the most part.  Until it is harsh measures must be taken at times.

So say Osama Bin Laden is captured.  He is well known to have caused thousands if not tens of thousands of deaths.  But you would not give him a death sentence?  

And the right to bear arms has been an argument for quite a while now with a lot of countries outlawing them.  The problem with this is that the outlaws still have the guns but now a law abiding citizen is basically fucked.  There have been many studies in which the crime rate actually increases in a society without weapons.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

So why the hell should I let you live for the rest of your life when you just ended someone else's w/ no reason?  Just does not appear logical to me.  This world is not a civilized place in the most part.  Until it is harsh measures must be taken at times.

Hey Hathcock, even though you and I are pretty much on the same side of this argument, I'll answer that little bit for you.  And it also has little to do with moral beliefs, no matter where they come from (religion or otherwise).

It's simple, none of us wants to kill an innocent man with the death penalty.  So we have all these measures in place to ensure that it doesn't happen (and even then, we've been wrong at times as proven by DNA tests of late).  So, speaking in terms of pure economics, it's cheaper to keep someone in prison for 50 years (a rough average of the rest of their lives) then it is to jump through all the hoops to kill them.  It's not that I think it's wrong to kill someone like a Hitler, or Bin Laden, just that in most cases (most) it's just good economics.

On top of that, I say make the bastards suffer a bit.  Give me back some of the older prisons, where the convicts were made to work at hard labor, and the prisons actually broke even or made money in some cases.  Fuck giving them weight rooms and basket balls, give them shovels and stamping machines and let them earn their keep.  

If you believe in hell, then they are going to rot in it eventually.  If you don't, then why not make them suffer or pay a little back before you just snuff them out?

[BFG]

Regarding good and evil... I don't know about others but i always think of it regarding religion..

I hope your right bucc, but like you said it does happen. Hathcock you cant hontestly tell me you believe 100% of deathrow inmates are guilty of the crimes they have been convicted for? - your basically saying you belive the american justice system is 100% proof???

Im rather with bucc regarding the make the bastards suffer... not to extreams but nothing like beeing locked up for several years of your life - i mean properly locked up like bucc, not let us give you bed and board and a snooker table and a gym, fooball pitch etc etc.

So more guns in america = less violence? Ok.. True in britian we have incedents of gun crimes - normally related to drugs. People occasionally get shot. When people do you tend to hear about it on the National news.... Its not very often. I cannot agree with you that if america made guns illigal and it idfficult for people to own them you wouldn't get less people being shot.

its not a civilised place.. Hell i got to agree with you about that. Perhaps if you helped set a presidence and stopped frying your own population? I won't mention Camp X-ray (oops) etc etc... I can't agree with the "well they behave like it so its ok if we do" attitude

[|MP|Buccaneer]

So more guns in america = less violence? Ok.. True in britian we have incedents of gun crimes - normally related to drugs. People occasionally get shot. When people do you tend to hear about it on the National news.... Its not very often. I cannot agree with you that if america made guns illigal and it idfficult for people to own them you wouldn't get less people being shot.

BFG, different states, and even different counties in America (and yes, even some cities) have different laws on gun control.  But, what I can do is direct you to some old threads here where we debated this.  In them I posted reports from a few universities, and stats from the UN showing a few things like:

In America, in places with a very liberal gun policy (meaning anyone can carry that isn't a felon), there are actually many less violent (ie rape, assault, murder, etc) then in places with very tight gun control laws.  There have been quite a few studies on it, by universities.  The conclusions after it was that criminals like to be the only ones with guns, therefore, they go elsewhere and look for easier prey.  

Other stats showed that both in England and Canada, after their strict controls or bans, violent crime went up.

Now remember, violent crime doesn't have to be with a gun.  Knives, bats, crowbars, ropes, fists, anything, They are just violent crimes.

Also take note that yes, Canada and the UK both have less violent crimes per capita then the US.  But in both cases, after gun bans, their own rates went up, not down.  That was the wrong direction.

Now, you can scan back and find the links to the studies if you don't believe me (I'm not going to fish them for you right now, but Tasty for one knows I posted them before).  

Now, you tell me what conclusions I'm supposed to draw about guns making it safer?  I asked the guys at the time to find anything saying that guns make it less safe for the average citizen, and all I got were stats showing that it was safer in countries with gun bans, but those same countries were safer before the gun bans.

Think about it.  If it's illegal to carry guns, then only criminals will.  Why do you want to give criminals an advantage like that?

Oh, one last thing.  I think the UK does a much better job of enacting tough punishments on criminals that use guns.  We could stand a lot of improvement in that regard here.