Workaround for the NF block

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Bluefire, understand that there are a few differences.

1) Microsuck claimed that you couldn't uninstall IE, that it was built into the OS.
2) Microsuck was also the OS, and they were using that leverage, which the government thought was unfair because there wasn't enough choice in OS.
3) NetFone still works, just not with GR.  You can use NF any other time.

[spike]

does anyone actually know how much evill pays for bandwidth each month? people use the assertion that he pays a kings ransom each month for bandwidth, id like to find out what the ball park is.

[KoS.Rebel]

Why is hazard defending evill? There are more ways of getting money then for charging us to use apps that we might have paid for. What a whore evill is. Why dont u GR guys just not use GR to war and just exchange IP's for servers and then join up?

[*DAMN Hazard]

Why is hazard defending evill?

I'm not defending him, I for one am against the NF banning but I am just trying to show both sides of the story.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I don't know how much Evill is paying, but I know that a typical server farm charges about $300-$500 per month for the server itself, which gets you like 10GB of data transfer a month, add another $10-$20 per GB of data transferred each month.

That's typical, GR isn't.  GR's servers have a high bandwidth that's burstable (say it's normally T3 speeds at 44MB/s, under heavy load it can increase to OC3 speeds of 155MB/s or OC12 speeds of 622MB/s).  With hosts like that, you get charged a premium depending on bandwidth per hour.  

These speeds don't come cheap.  Figure a T3 costs anywhere from $5000/month to $30000/month.  OC3 comes in at $20000/month to $60000/month.  

It's kinda like your cell phones.  You sign up for a plan of so many minutes (so much bandwidth/hour in this case) and if you go over, you pay through the nose.  

So, I'd be surprised if Evill wasn't spending more then $750 - $1000 per month, and it could be much higher (I don't know what bandwidth he actually uses).  It could easily go as high as $3000-$5000 a month.  All depends on how busy GR is, how many people download updates at once, etc.

Now this isn't counting his own internet connection, or hosting the GR web site.  Those are both extra.  

And it doesn't say anything about the time he himself puts into it.  Both slinging code to make it work, and being the babysitter-in-chief.  That time is worth a bucket full of cash if he was working for someone else, so he earns it (if he ever sees it).

[Mr. Lothario]

     Because GR is good enough to use, therefore it is good enough to support. Besides which, as a wannabe developer, I appreciate the amount of work Evill has put into GR over the years, and what a good job he's done from a technical standpoint. Besides which again, I happen to like Evill personally. I'm plenty willing to spend $50 per year to a) pay for an app I've used for thousands of hours, b) support a hardworking and skillful developer, and c) help remove a little of the financial burden from a guy I like.

     $50 is an entirely reasonable price for any service that you use as much as most of us here use it. As has been stated, Evill could have been a total hardass and closed GR to nonpaying users. But the leeches are still allowed to use it, albeit with some handicaps. So quitcher bitchin' and ante up if you want to have a right to complain.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

There are more ways of getting money then for charging us to use apps that we might have paid for. What a whore evill is.

Spoken like someone that doesn't pay for his own meals yet.

After years of pouring time and money into GR, what in the hell is wrong with him wanting to make money from it?  It's not being a whore.

Why dont u GR guys just not use GR to war and just exchange IP's for servers and then join up?

Because, there's something very very nice about leaving GR running in the background while I'm doing work, being contacted by a few buddies to play a game when they are on.

I've come from the PC side, and let me tell you, GR is a community that they just don't have.  There are some small communities, that collect around a web site, or a specific game.  But there's not a great place to hook up with this large of a group, with so many games across the board.  

It's a hell of a lot easier to meet on GR then it is on AIM or any other substitute.  

Yes, if GR went away, it's basic function could be replaced.  Everyone could meet up on MaG or even a KDX server.  If you could get the word out to enough people.  But it would be an ever shrinking community.  And without all the other perks of GR.

[BTs_Colin]

Things fair (or right) about evill banning nf for non-premiums:
It helps pay for an app we all love and NEED!!!!!!

I have no problem with that. I just happen to have no money for that either. I'm a student. $50 bucks is goin' to food, a good time, saving for college, my girlfriend, a new Mac (G3 is old!!!) a new game maybe, and then somewhere under all that is GR. I understand it's important but to me other things are more important.

Things that are unfair (or morally wrong) about banning nf for non-premiums:
It's bad for PR and business. It alienates users.
It's not the problem!!! It's a solution to his money woes but it's not the source of them!
He has targeted Haxial. IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL TO CHARGE FOR THE RIGHT TO USE ANOTHER DEVELOPERS SOFTWARE!!! What if I used NF for my business?

Maybe he'll reconsider (Unlikely) and realize that NF isn't the problem!!! It never was. People don't use the ingame chat because it barely works!!! Most people I talk to have intermittent delivery of their chat's. Just not acceptable.

[Blufire]

Colin, if you used NF for business, why would you be playing a game on GR at the same time? That's the only time when NF is restricted.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Guys, you're missing hte point of what's wrong with this. It doesn't matter if for some stupid reason he could legally get away with this (Windows to Mac isn't the same) the point is he is doing this without thinking about Haxial.

For me GR premium would cost about 85 dolalrs Canadian
(which GR currently doesn't have a method for Canadians to pay...err easy way)

And Netfone roughly 35 dollars (both based on .75 exchange rate)

Which I could afford but the turn off is 80+ dollars per year to get to use a 35 dollar application.

Hazard, we're not forcing him to do GameRanger, no one ever did. He obviously can pay the money, the advertisements could cover the costs alone. I'm not angry that the guy offers a 50 dollar service, I'm angry that he forces it like this.

Buccaneer you 3rd point wasn't valid, you could run netscape on a PC running linux, just not when windows in running.

There is a big difference between no supporting something and, as Evill has done, blocking a application. This isn't Premium vs Non-Premium, this is just a issue of fairness and morals. NetFone is a promising application. This seems like a good way to kill it.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

the point is he is doing this without thinking about Haxial.

1) NetFone isn't marketed as a game chat system.
2) I'd bet a month's pay that the vast majority of people that use NetFone on GR have not paid for it.  I've seen whole clans share a single sn, plus I've seen how many people have to wait for it to stop nagging.
3) Yes, he should think of himself before another company.

For me GR premium would cost about 85 dolalrs Canadian
(which GR currently doesn't have a method for Canadians to pay...err easy way)

And Netfone roughly 35 dollars (both based on .75 exchange rate)

1) Credit cards will do the conversion for you, at that day's conversion rate.  So it is easy.
2) Go back to school and learn your math.  Based on a .75 exchange rate, GR would cost you $67 canooks, not 85.  Way to inflate the numbers to fit your outrage.

He obviously can pay the money, the advertisements could cover the costs alone.

And you are basing that on what?  Where did you get this fact??

I'm not angry that the guy offers a 50 dollar service, I'm angry that he forces it like this.

So you'd be happier if he just closed GameRanger down?

Buccaneer you 3rd point wasn't valid, you could run netscape on a PC running linux, just not when windows in running.

GR isn't an operating system.  NF wasn't made to work with GR.  The point stands.

This isn't Premium vs Non-Premium, this is just a issue of fairness and morals. NetFone is a promising application. This seems like a good way to kill it.

What makes you think that NetFone sales are based at all on GameRanger?  And when TeamSpeak or Ventrilo come out for the Mac, are they just as evil?

Give it up.  You wouldn't have GameRanger without Evill's generosity so far.  He's not asking for too much, so just quit the whining already.  

[Typhy]

How much Evill loses on GR shouldn't be what we're talking about. Someone with Evill's programing skills could go out and get a high paying job with ease. Instead, he devotes tons of time to doing what? Making something that even people who've been taking advantage of for years refuse to pay for?

Colin, in regards to in game chat - how is that relevant? Us premium members - the only people who could use in game chat - can use NF, so that point is invalid. The only change is that non premiumers can't use NF, nor could they ever use GR's in game VC.

It doesn't matter how much Evill asks for premium. Most of the people who are willing to pay have paid. Those of you who refuse to pay would do the same if it were 25 bucks, it's not the price, it's an unwillingness to pay for something that you think should be free.

Personally, I could care less what Evill's costs are for GR; the point is, that he's losing money. Even if he were making money off GR, it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask people to pay - if he took the amount of work he's put into GR and put it into something else, he'd be making a fuck load of a lot more.

[*DAMN Hazard]

if he took the amount of work he's put into GR and put it into something else, he'd be making a fuck load of a lot more.

That's what I'm trying to say. Put yourself in his shoes for two seconds. Most of you would have given in sooner.

But you know what it boils down to? His app, his choice, and there is not a fucking thing you can do about it. May be unfair, may be morally wrong but you can't do shit.

Hazard

[BTs_Mysterio]

I hate these type of posts but it needs to be done:

1) NetFone isn't marketed as a game chat system.
2) I'd bet a month's pay that the vast majority of people that use NetFone on GR have not paid for it.? I've seen whole clans share a single sn, plus I've seen how many people have to wait for it to stop nagging.
3) Yes, he should think of himself before another company.

Thats BS bucc, what does how it's marketed have anything to do with this? GameRanger wasn't marketed for chatting..."owned." You can't use a single serial number, 1 person uses the number and haxial shuts it down. There is no way what you said is possible. Why should he do that? Haxial is a very small company with probably less sales than GR premium. Then again he is Evill...

1) Credit cards will do the conversion for you, at that day's conversion rate.? So it is easy.
2) Go back to school and learn your math.? Based on a .75 exchange rate, GR would cost you $67 canooks, not 85.? Way to inflate the numbers to fit your outrage.

Well first off thanks for the tip I'll try that. Well when I type 50 * .75 I get 37.5 and hmmm, 37.5 + 50 = 87.5 so it would appear I went lower (50 * 1.75=87.5). Way to deflate the number out of rage.

And you are basing that on what?? Where did you get this fact??

Well based on what you said abotu the cost of GR and the fact that almost every mac gamer uses it, I figure advertisers must pay a fair bit. Given it is based on common sense (you may not have that). I would rather see 4 banner ads than see NF blocked.

So you'd be happier if he just closed GameRanger down?

My statement in no way implied that. I said he could offer this service in a less forceful way.

GR isn't an operating system.? NF wasn't made to work with GR.? The point stands.

What are you talking about? That had no relivant points. NF wasn't made to not work with GR, it obviously did before this so thats irrelevant. My point stands because GR is forcing it, not unintentionally having problems.

What makes you think that NetFone sales are based at all on GameRanger?? And when TeamSpeak or Ventrilo come out for the Mac, are they just as evil?

I know alot of people use netfone and buy it for use with games. It's only fair to conclude this will damage NFs sales. I don't think that would be evil, those are 2 applications witht he same purpose. Voice chat isn't GameRangers main purpose. If it was it wouldn't be premium only. Another lame at best comment.

Give it up.? You wouldn't have GameRanger without Evill's generosity so far.? He's not asking for too much, so just quit the whining already.

I say good for him, he did a greta job. But, I ask, why is it his place to willingly damage another company?

[*DAMN Hazard]

NF serials can be reused. There is one serial that pretty much has made it's way around GR.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Typhy, well said.

Myst, grow up.

You can't use a single serial number, 1 person uses the number and haxial shuts it down. There is no way what you said is possible.

Yes, you can.  People do.  I can even name a few (but I wont).  And haxial doesn't shut down serial numbers, because it doesn't have any spyware to tell it.

Haxial is a very small company with probably less sales than GR premium. Then again he is Evill...

And you base that bullshit on what?

Well first off thanks for the tip I'll try that. Well when I type 50 * .75 I get 37.5 and hmmm, 37.5 + 50 = 87.5 so it would appear I went lower (50 * 1.75=87.5). Way to deflate the number out of rage.

LMAO.  Nice math skills.  And people bitch about our education system?

Where in the world did you learn that formula for converting money?  This may be a little too difficult for you, but you just divide 50 by .75 to do the conversion.  You can even check the conversion rates online.  Today $50USD is equal to $65CAD.  Here's the link: http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic

Well based on what you said abotu the cost of GR and the fact that almost every mac gamer uses it, I figure advertisers must pay a fair bit. Given it is based on common sense (you may not have that).

First, don't forget about how many months there was no advertiser on GR.  Second, no, the ad rates for GR are very reasonable (I asked Scott what they were, as we were thinking of advertising).  

I know alot of people use netfone and buy it for use with games. It's only fair to conclude this will damage NFs sales. I don't think that would be evil, those are 2 applications witht he same purpose. Voice chat isn't GameRangers main purpose. If it was it wouldn't be premium only. Another lame at best comment.

The only thing lame is your lack of understanding.

Voice Chat is a SELLING POINT of GR.  That's the whole point of it being premium only.  You seem to have a hard time understanding that.  

I'll cover the damaging of NF sales next.

But, I ask, why is it his place to willingly damage another company?

1) Any company that markets a product that has the same features is willing out to damage the other companies sales.
2) NetFone still works with GR, if you pay for premium.  So if you prefer NetFone to GR chat, you still get it.
3) You are missing the point (as usual for you) that in game chat is a feature, one that he has decided will only work for premium users of HIS service.  

That means if you want to voice chat in games you can either pay for premium or not use HIS service.  

So, go use netfone, just not on GameRanger, if that's the way you feel about it.  Or pay up.  

But in either case, go back and take remedial math.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

He has targeted Haxial. IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL TO CHARGE FOR THE RIGHT TO USE ANOTHER DEVELOPERS SOFTWARE!!! What if I used NF for my business?

Colin, as stated before.  NetFone works for premium users in games still.  Also, more to the point, for non-premiums, NetFone still works until you launch a game.  So as long as you aren't playing a game, NF works for you too.  Even if GR is on.  So if you used it for your business, or calling your aunt Sally, it still works.

[[OZ] Jedda]

What really needs to be separated is the difference between not SUPPORTING an app, and deliberatly killing it.

If Scott's app wasn't in the same business realm, or didn't offer the same services (voice chat) as NF, it might be a different story, but this is blatant killing off of the competition.

Last time i checked, using someone elses app as a "selling point" of your product without their knowledge wasn't cricket, and wasnt looked upon well by the legal system.

Evill's feature crush (instead of expansion) reminds me of a recent situation involving Apple introducing iTunes for Windows.

At the keynote, Steve talked about MusicMatch, the program that was previously bundled with iPods for Windows.

Similar to what Evill appears to be doing here, MusicMatch tried to persuade users to buy THEIR premium service by CUTTING features already available, instead of adding them.

(burn speeds reduced after 5 burns, mp3 encoding reduced after 5 encs.)

I have never done a major in Business or Economics, but im pretty sure that the way to enhance a user base is NOT to cut features to non subscibers. I am sure that Evill is a hard working and dedicated guy, but if he wants to persuade the average Joe or Jill into buying his product he shoulod be adding features, not diminishing them.

Sure, some of the more hardcore GR users will understand Evill's prediciment and BUY BUY BUY, but other users are looking for true value, and killing other apps is not viewed as valuable.

Please Evill, don't diminish the intelligences of your user base by telling them that:

'due to some unfortunate new coding clashes, NF is and will not be supported by future versions of GR'

'if you buy premium however, i might be inclined to fix the problem" just doesnt make sense.

If your service was more stable (ie, i wasnt afraid of giving you my cash and you shutting it down tommorow) and you didnt try to monopolise the market by being a sneaky prick, you would have my money, but until you can prove that you are offering a service ON TOP of GR and not 'the features that we previously had', you simply wont.

- J

[|MP|Buccaneer]

What really needs to be separated is the difference between not SUPPORTING an app, and deliberatly killing it.

It's not killing it, NF still works.  It's just not working with it.

but this is blatant killing off of the competition.

Spelled BUSINESS.  

What really needs to be separated is the difference between not SUPPORTING an app, and deliberatly killing it.

It's not killing it, NF still works.  It's just not working with it.

Last time i checked, using someone elses app as a "selling point" of your product without their knowledge wasn't cricket, and wasnt looked upon well by the legal system.

The way some here are saying it, Haxial is doing just that, using the GameRanger app as a selling point.  

But it's all rubbish.  GameRanger users are not the bulk of Haxial's customer base.  Especially since their apps work on Windoze too.  So they are not killing off, or screwing up Haxial in any great way.

I have never done a major in Business or Economics, but im pretty sure that the way to enhance a user base is NOT to cut features to non subscibers. I am sure that Evill is a hard working and dedicated guy, but if he wants to persuade the average Joe or Jill into buying his product he shoulod be adding features, not diminishing them.

Actually, giving something away for free, then making it a pay service is a long standing and successful business model.  It's worked for much of recorded history.

You also miss out on P&L.  He's been in L, he needs to be in P.  Marketing and bad PR is something you can get over, but if you are continuing to lose money, that's something that you eventually can't get over.

Sure, some of the more hardcore GR users will understand Evill's prediciment and BUY BUY BUY, but other users are looking for true value, and killing other apps is not viewed as valuable.

Want to see the value in GR.  Try to game without it for a month.  Then tell me it's not worth it.  The voice chat is one feature in the whole app.

and you didnt try to monopolise the market by being a sneaky prick, you would have my money, but until you can prove that you are offering a service ON TOP of GR and not 'the features that we previously had', you simply wont.

Jedda, you miss the whole point.  You, and many others here are acting like you deserve the old free GR for free always.  You think that just because it was free, it should stay free.  Give me one good reason for that?

Like I said, giving something away to drive demand, then charging for it later is a solid business model (and I have gone to business school).  It's not evil, it's making a buck.

[[OZ] Jedda]

1. Jedda is right on the point, and it hurts.

Not at all Bucc.

I'm simply saying that if Evill wants to kill off the competion in a bitchy manner, he won't be getting my money. I'm not including anybody else in my argument.

I just think that hacking into the processes of my mac just to promote my purchasing off his product is unethical and immature.

When Microsoft did this to Netscape, they got in shit. Why is Evill exempt?

2. Don't insult our intelligences.

It's not killing it, NF still works.? It's just not working with it.

What a load. Please don't think that Evill will get away with saying NF simply isn't supported any more.

If it used to work, why will it now not?

I'll tell you why:

People say - "Why get GR premium? We have NF, and iv'e heard that Evill's solution for voice chat is slightly behind technologically speaking (ie, no chat before game, ect.)"

Shit, I know I did.

Perhaps Evill says - "Wow, i'll block it and all my problems will be solved."
(note the perhaps to stop me getting myself in quote-rebuttal trouble)

I'd really ike to get premium, but not when there is blatant, unsound business crud going on under the table.

I think my main point, addressed squarely at the man himself, is -

"If you take away features, I really think the average GR user will leave. If you want more premium users, find another way, because I can really see this heading towards premium only, which will only consist of some of the GhR community. I really don't think i'd be prepared to pay for such a service, which some of my friends and clanmates couldn't (or wouldnt) afford.

If premium was cheaper, i'd buy it, because as a student, with no real income, i'd be really struggling to afford 80 AUD a year on a gaming service, and don't give me shit about buying heaps of games and not caring about GR, because I only own 2."

Peace out - J