Gentlemen and Sportsmanship

[Acri]

I hereby invite all clan leaders to a chat that is going to be held Thursday 16th October at 22 CET and one on Friday 01 AM CET. Here we will discuss the following issues:

Gentleman's Code for Clan Leaders
Code of Conduct for Clan members

Basically, I think we should set up a clear set of rules for clan leaders. Clan members as such are NOT invited to the chat. You must ask for my permission to invite anyone else, otherwise it will be come too crowded.

I hope you will all attend. If you want to participate or just want a chat transcript, contact me in GR.

[BTs_FahQ2]

hahahahahaha, nice Valdar.

The interclanitary summit of 2003.  May we be informed of how many emmisaries are allowed, the official language of the summit, how many bodyguards are allowed and will we need netfone or premium.  What dishes can we bring?

[Saberian 3000]

Well, to be honest I think that the clan leaders get along better now then they ever have in seasons before.  I do believe that we discuss issues and resolve more of them this season out of the forums then was ever displayed within the past.  So I agree that this is a nice idea, but I do not think that this meeting is necessary.  Maybe last season this meeting would have served some purpose, but this season seemsto be panning out just fine for the time being unless there is some issue that you personally would like to share, and if that is the case, then that is really what the DAMN forums are about.  Every leader reads the posts that are posted here and every leader is aware of issues with other clans and whatnot thru this forum.  So in a sense, dosent the forums here basically do the same thing as a meeting cause in the end all the clan leaders will read something on here that is directed towards them anyway?

+MOD+Saberian

[Acri]

On October the 16th, a meeting was held to adress problems encountered in Season 5 of the *DAMN Battle League. The meeting was attended by high-ranked players and leaders from nearly 10 clans. They agreed on writing a Code of Conduct for clan leaders to try to minimize the problems. Below is a list of the set of rules that they agreed on.
Note that these are in no way competing with rules made by the *DAMN admins. These rules will not be enforced, it is merely a guide line.


CODE OF CONDUCT
Rules formulated by GhRa> Acri, the host of the meeting. The rules have been verified by Vectorman of SL and Eight of BTs.



FORUM ISSUES:

Anything not related to BL admins should not be posted in the Battle League forum thread.

Each clan leader is responsible for ending flame wars that their clan is in.

Do not post in threads not connected to your clan.





GAME ISSUES:

Problems in a CB should be handled by the leader and/or the highest ranking player in that CB.

Each clan leader is responsible for his members when it comes to glitching.

If a glitch is discovered in-game, you save the replay and notify the other clan.

If you discover an unintentional glitch after the cb is over, report to the other clan leader. And ask him for a rematch of that round. If the other clan members denies you a replay, you should post it in the forum.




REPLAY ISSUES:


You must send replays within 15 minutes if requested.

You should remind the other clan after each round to save that replay.

If both clans forget a replay, it is no one?s fault and you should not demand a forfeit.

The replay should be named [Guest] vs [Host], [Guests? score and host?s score] [map].

Set the After-Action timer to at least one minute.

[Krush]

I attended and am now verfying that i was at the meeting, i believe Acri wrote everything down  

[BTs_eight]

I attended... an agree...

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Each clan leader is responsible for ending flame wars that their clan is in.

This is what the moderators are for.  Let them keep the forums as they see fit.  It's their responsibility, not ours.

Do not post in threads not connected to your clan.

I completely disagree with this one.  The whole concept of forums, and talking about things in the open, is so that all parties can give input.  Let's face it, some issues in cb's (like glitches) and the punishment have an effect on every clan.  

There is no reason that anyone shouldn't be able to contribute to the conversation (and it's up to the moderators to keep the thread on topic.

If a glitch is discovered in-game, you save the replay and notify the other clan.

Instead of just telling the person they are glitching and giving everyone the opportunity to just restart that round?  Why do we need to do anything different then the rules here? (which are still being sorted out).

If you discover an unintentional glitch after the cb is over, report to the other clan leader. And ask him for a rematch of that round. If the other clan members denies you a replay, you should post it in the forum.

I have a huge problem with this.  So everyone start going through the replays, looking for a way to salvage a win.  That's just stupid in my opinion.  

So many people don't seem to understand the purpose of replays.  You can ask for a replay if you suspect someone of cheating or glitching.  You aren't supposed to just ask for them so you can examine them later, looking for these.  Where's the honor in that?

You should remind the other clan after each round to save that replay.

If both clans forget a replay, it is no one?s fault and you should not demand a forfeit.

You guys are acting as if replays are expected.  Remember, a replay has to be requested after you suspect something.  So that second part is just utter bullshit.  One clan has to ask for it in the first place, it's just not supposed to be automatic.

The replay should be named [Guest] vs [Host], [Guests? score and host?s score] [map].

OK, this just is not going to happen as far as I'm concerned.  First, you have a time limit to send them, now you are asking for them to be renamed.  Bullshit.  If you want them cataloged so you can go over them later like game tape, name them yourselves when you get them.  Whatever GhR names them is how they should be sent.  UNALTERED IN ANY WAY.  If you can't keep track of all the replays you ask for, then it's your problem.

Maybe the biggest problem in Season 5 is people trying to get the cheap win, and caring too much about replays and things outside the actual CB.  Win or lose, |MP| has not asked for a replay yet, and unless we really think someone was cheating, we wont.  I simply don't believe using a rule meant to catch a cheater as a cheap way to win a CB, or as a tool to "spy" on another clan's tactics.

[Acri]

Thanks for the input Bucc.

I would like to point out obvious errors:
A lot of clans already look at replays looking for glitches. You will be surprised, but:

I suggested that a replay FOUND after the game should not be  a reason to demand a forfeit. I think you and I thiink the same here. No honor. The other clans however wanted to be able to look through the replays to find glitches. I am not Mauti or anything, I just wrote down what we agreed on.

When it comes to the forum issues, you have clearly missunderstood. A flame war can take place in 10 mins after a cb. Np. A moderator can't stop it. The rule was made on almost 100% of the votes (SignTist being an exception). We want to make sure that everyone stops giving their "2 cents" and we want to prevent that a whole clan gets involved in one of their members personal flame wars. We should not press the moderators patience. Of course you can post in other threads if you actually have something to add (which is unusual(.

About the naming of replays: You name them like this IN-GAME! It is not something done after the game. Set the AfterAction timer to one minute and save the replay with a correct name. It's nothing! Don't be lazy!

uote from: GhRa> Acri on October 16, 2003, 10:10:05 PM

uote from: GhRa> Acri on October 16, 2003, 10:10:05 PM


If a glitch is discovered in-game, you save the replay and notify the other clan.
I agreed with you Bucc but the others wanted the cb to be finished before any rematches were played. I have no idea why. I acknowledge the voting though.

Last of all, about the replays:
What you just said is the reason we made this rule! Some people take replays for granted! IF you want the replays then you have to bloody make sure you ask for them. I was requested to forfeit after saving a replay that we both forgot! There are scumbags Bucc. The rule is hopefully going to prevent that scenarios like this happens. The BL rules say that you must ask every specific round for a replay. And there are other reasons to want a replay:

Let's say I play vs MP and we get totally owned on a map they chose and that we are unused to. We want to know what tactics they used!

On another note: The meeting will continue 01 AM CET. Be there to change the rules.

[Saberian 3000]

So far it sounds good to me even though I did not attend this meeting.  Srry, but in the end I do have a life to attend to.  As for what Bucc said, i do agree with everything that was stated.  Even though most of this stuff to be honest is already being followed by most clans.  Although the flame war stuff I do agree with as well.  That should stop.  

+MOD+Saberian

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Thanks for the input Bucc.

No problem, this isn't a flame, just me using the forums for what they are meant for.  Input to something I wasn't involved with =D  (goes to proving my point about other clans posting).

I would like to point out obvious errors:
A lot of clans already look at replays looking for glitches. You will be surprised, but:

That's not an error.  I know some do.  I'm saying it's just plain wrong and disgusting to me.

I suggested that a replay FOUND after the game should not be  a reason to demand a forfeit. I think you and I thiink the same here. No honor. The other clans however wanted to be able to look through the replays to find glitches. I am not Mauti or anything, I just wrote down what we agreed on.

We think alike in theory, I just believe that if you don't think they glitched in the game, you shouldn't even ask for a replay, or to go over them later, or to demand to play that round over, or a forefit.  I think that's just bull.  Some people are just looking too hard to find ways to win not in the game.

When it comes to the forum issues, you have clearly missunderstood. A flame war can take place in 10 mins after a cb. Np. A moderator can't stop it. The rule was made on almost 100% of the votes (SignTist being an exception). We want to make sure that everyone stops giving their "2 cents" and we want to prevent that a whole clan gets involved in one of their members personal flame wars. We should not press the moderators patience. Of course you can post in other threads if you actually have something to add (which is unusual(.

Again, I understood what you were saying, I just don't agree.

1) there are two issues you are combining here.  First, flame wars, second, other people's involvement.  I have no problem with any intelligent, informed opinion from anyone in a battle league issue.  Sometimes an outside, non-partial opinion is a good thing.  Also, the outcome of that issue could effect every clan, as I already said.

2) Flamewars.  I don't care if one happens 10 minutes after the CB, it's still the moderators job to clean up.  I do not think it should be my, or anyone else's responsibility to check the forums after a CB for flames that aren't Moderators.  Face it, even if I did, and Ace had left a flame, I can't delete it, so all I can do is ask people not to respond to it.  And since that's been asked hundreds of times already, it doesn't seem like it's going to make a difference.  And I'm all for pressing the moderators patience.  They aren't forced to have the position, it's theirs, and it's also theirs to shape.  It's up to them to set the standards, not us.

About the naming of replays: You name them like this IN-GAME! It is not something done after the game. Set the AfterAction timer to one minute and save the replay with a correct name. It's nothing! Don't be lazy!

I don't believe in replays.  I don't believe in the need to name them for a catalog.  If you take them, they are to look for someone cheating, so only that round, and should be gotten rid of when done.  If some clans want to keep a catalog of all other clans, they can be cheap that way (and yes, that is my opinion) but I'll be damned if I'm going to help them with their cataloging.  End of story.  It has nothing to do with being lazy, it has everything to do with how wrong I think it is.

If a glitch is discovered in-game, you save the replay and notify the other clan.
[/b] I agreed with you Bucc but the others wanted the cb to be finished before any rematches were played. I have no idea why. I acknowledge the voting though.

Hey, this is the one legit use of replays in my book.  You think someone glitched and ask for a replay.  You play the rest of the CB, then look at THAT replay.  The two clans come to an agreement, no problem.  They don't, it goes to the Admins.  What's so hard about that?  This, to me, is how it should be.

Last of all, about the replays:
What you just said is the reason we made this rule! Some people take replays for granted! IF you want the replays then you have to bloody make sure you ask for them. I was requested to forfeit after saving a replay that we both forgot! There are scumbags Bucc.

And whoever requested the forfeit is an idiot.  The rules today already cover this.  All you guys did was agree to a guideline that restates the rule.  A replay has to be asked for.  

And there are other reasons to want a replay:

Let's say I play vs MP and we get totally owned on a map they chose and that we are unused to. We want to know what tactics they used!

Which is the worst thing in the world about replays.  That's my whole point.  YOU SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO ASK FOR REPLAYS JUST TO LEARN ANOTHER CLAN'S TACTICS.  This is a loophole in the rules, one I'd be very happy to see Mauti fix.  

I'll be very very candid.  It's the bullshit like the replays and people looking for glitches that is causing all the problems around here, and it's really making it not much fun.  

Now, I know that you, Acri, agree with me on the replay issue for the most part, I'm just saying that I don't feel that it is how the game should be played, and I want no part of the compromises to make it more about rules and who found what after the CB's then just a game.  Period.

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

Well as some one who was in the meeting.. the replay issue was stated if we do happen to go though the replays and we see someone doing a major glitch (like crawling into the houses in castle) to report it. Thats what i think that peeps were meaning by that.

As for getting the replays... my clan likes to have all replays.. we dont look at them all. but i use them to watch what my own guys do and figure out how we can get better. I dont look for glitches unless i think there was one in the game.

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

Oh and i was the one who metioned the thing about tell other clan member not to post in treads that were not related to you. (things were kinda hectic at times in the meeting so i think some of my point was lost). What i said we to not post in a tread unless you r directly involved or can put in valid statments into the probem. As in 3rd party experience to the prob. (whitch means any clan). But to tell our clan members to please post on topic if they post in the BL forum.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Lee Harvey, I agree that all the comments should be relevant to the discussion, and it seems that we agree on that point.  I'm just saying that it's the moderators responsibility to delete some of those posts that are just throwing gas on the fire, and aren't serving another point.

As far as the crawling into the houses in castle, that stuff can be kept track of from normal games, not replays.  If we want a list of known glitches, start to compile one.  You'll see people doing it easier in normal games and can get the info from there.  We don't need to get it from replays.

One more point about glitching.  People are awefully liberal with that term.  It's not a glitch if they are just hiding like a girlscout and not shooting just because you can see them and not hit.  They actually have to be ATTACKING from that position for it to be wrong.  In other words, I can hide, lying down, behind a ridge, and not be glitching, even if you can see me, as long as I don't hit you from there.

That's when you call for a replay, that's when you look for it.

As for you liking to have all the replays, I think that's pretty cheap Lee, and I've said it before.  You can practice if you want to see what you clan is doing.  You don't need the ability to see what the other clan is doing.

[Saberian 3000]

Yes, sorry for putting my feelings here but I just dont agree with a meeting to where the forum can work just as well to solve the same issue since all clan leaders come here anyway to see what is going on within the community.  In any event I do agree with Bucc again on the replay issue specifically.  The only crap issue with that is the fact that the hosting team can easily save all the replays within the game and still use them as a tutorial for how the other team operates on certain maps.  
     to be honest I do fully agree though that people should not ask for replays unless they have to do with a possible cheat or glitch.  otherwise they should not ask for them.  We did try it last season and I do believe that it went well with mostly success.  Although those times that we asked for the replays were very tense as well for the simple fact that the opposing team would get all butt-hurt about us wanting to see the replays and would start serious tension thruout the rest of the game.  I guess my point is that there is really no good way to deal with the only taking replays for possible issues because if you did that they would try and immediately defend themselves about the issue before the game was done and possibly cause more issues in the end.  
     As for the flame war bit.  Well, I do agree that sometimes it gets out of hand.  To be honest it is up to the clan leaders to control their own members, and if it is the clan leader that is the issue then he or she should definitely use better judgement before posting anything that could cause a flame war with an entire clan.  I can say that when it comes to people attacking my clan, I do stand up for my guys all the time and sometimes I get out of hand myself.  This is part of the freedom of the forums to defend ourselves and whatnot.  By putting restrictions on this is only going to move the problem from the forum (where it can be somewhat controlled) onto the main chat room of Gameranger (Which cannot be controlled).  I do again awknowledge the fact that sometimes these clan bitch sessions get out of hand but I do think that in the end people should be allowed to express themselves on here and in the forum to prevent any unsaid problems that might explode later on between clans.  To be honest most clans do bitch at each other but in the end solve their issues when they finally hit reason within theirselves.  for example: in season 3 we had an issue with TRIBE, that I am sure is still on the forums somewhere.  We hashed it out pretty good, but in the end realised that we could solve this issue and now our clans are very tight.  It happens as well with many other clans and I do not think that this should be changed just because the people the arent involve read it and get butt-hurt cause they cant stand the issue of clans bitching at each other.  They should be following ure rule about clans or people not involved in the issue to stay out of it, but then again, that is putting a limitation on the rights that by any person from a free nation of the world should be allowed to express themselves.  I can kinda see where this is going with you acri, and I dont think you are a bad person for trying to solve these issues, but I just dont see how stopping clans from expressing themselves on the forums is gonna create harmony thruout the clan world.  I have a feeling it will create even more tension because these certain areas of peoples thoughts arent expressed and more repressed like what Germany tried to do in WW2 to their people.  
     It's like saying that AK Rapid cant say what he feels.  Now we all know that many people have issues with Rapid, but in relaity I dont have a problem with him in the slightest giving his opinion even though it is rude to some.  It is, after all, an opinion that is allowed to be made because he feels that he has the right to express himself.  That, in a strange sense, is why I love the forums.  They can solve issues and create good thinking way more then limiting it.  Plus let's face it, it's human nature to be able to speak ure mind, even though I might not agree with whatever they are saying.  Again, all we can do is try and do our best to tone it down, but to limit us from speaking to ten min after a cb if there is a lingering issue is kinda crap.  No one should have to time this, and no one should be limited to expressing themselves in the way they feel can be the most understood.

I apologise now if this sounds like I am starting a flame war.  In relaity I do think ure attempt at tring to make this better is noble, but when it comes to these issues, I have to state what I think is right as well.  So dont take this as an attack plz, just an observation about what it going on

+MOD+Saberian

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

I think that's pretty cheap Lee,

From my past experience.. players act diff in cb then in practices... I dont realy watch the other team (i know you think that is hard to believe). I like to see what my guys do under pressure (how they react). like i know that one of my playes in practices is aressive.. but when it come to cb... b/c of reviewing the replays.. i can tell that he camps when the pressure is on. It helps me in getting the guys to break there bad habbits. I have gotten good at catching the glitches during the games.. due to the fact of the list of glitches that i got from the link on the MP web site. I have found that what you have put down bucc has become a very good refrence when I'm tring to show my guys Y they sould not do something b/c it can be considered a glitch.

And the thing about them checking the replays to find some one going into the house glitch ect.. I was just letting you know why it was said.. it was not said by me. If me or one of my team members didn't see it in the CB then it never happened.. if we see it we check the replays to see if it was a glitch. But on the other hand i like to have to replays to game so if any of my guys r accused of glitching after the cb is over.. i can have a copie of the replay w/ in the set amount of time that the BL has deamed that no one could fuck w. it and chage stuff. The only time i have had a prob. w/ not getting a replay is on a map that i thought the other team had glitched and they didnt save the replay even after i asked.

[th.Sentinel]

I totally agree with Bucc on this!

The fact you have to name your replays according to your rules is total BS! If I want to name the replay ?BS Nr 1? then I?m gonna call it that way! Its part of MY catalog!

If you want to know the tactics of the other clan, observe them in game, but not on a replay! I only watch replays on my host to see where I could improve, what I did wrong. Not what the other clan was doing in the bushes while I was runnin in the open. That is why I play so much in Signtist?s room, to observe BTs and improve my tactics, so one day I can kill all of em!    

To Acri: To call a meeting like that only one day in advance and stating your rules is not nice... The rules were made by the admins and Mauti. If you want something changed put it in the forum and wait for response, but don?t go calling a meeting where half of the clans couldn?t be present. And where you were the one deciding who could join and who couldn?t!

And the name of your post is hilarious, I know why you posted that, you were angry! Why? Because you lost another cb... and you just can?t accept you got killed that much. Everytime you get killed you complain! 45 mins after the cb ended you were still complaining, and because I wasn?t giving in, you kicked me from the room, now that is the way a gentleman should act, not?
You probably think you had a good reason to boot me from the room, but you didn?t! Trying to use the ?fair? tactic on me isn?t going to work, oh, I feel sorry for the cheattest in the previous cb, but that wasn?t my call, but using that in another cb to change the result of that cb that?s pathetic...
And here is where WE were fair to you: You aksed us not to use netfone, because you weren't able to use it. So we didn't use it, when we actually weren't obligated to... so that's the way you repay us???

And one more thing glitches happen, get to live with it, onwig wasn?t glitching he just shot you true a tent, things like that happen! He didn't use it to his advantage so don't complain!

I?m still behind my Gen though, everything he thinks is good for the clan, is good for me.

Sent!

[.::|N| DIESEL]

I dont think I need to say much but I dont think a small gathering to discuss how "Leaders" should act is remotley appropriate.  If anything these "Leaders" are getting along more than usual.  As for the level in which people are taking these "clan things," I'm wondering if there are a lack of day jobs in some of the communities we come from?

As for Bucc's reply fromt he start, I agree with him fully.  Why the hell isnt he a Moderator.  

[Acri]

SentineL.
I was not in any way the one making the decisions. I was only at the pen. I wrote down what people said and made sure people didnt yell at eachother. Also, I state this a guide line and not a set of rules. No one is forcing you to bother. I do wish you would end your hostility now. this wasnt some kind of run for power and if you see it that way, then you are free to hold the club at the continuing of the meeting tonight at 1 AM CET. Really, sorry for the whining, i was out of line!

[Cutter]

   33 - clans in the team ladder
   25 - active clans in the ladder
     8 - people in the clan leaders meeting
_____
17-25 - unrepresented clans  

[Acri]

Cutter, that aint true. A lot of people came and then left cuz they had nothing to contribute. That aint my fault. I wish everyone would stop blaming me for this

I invited people to a gathering. I am not God. you didnt have to come
I did NOT make these rules up. I simply wrote them down
I do NOT agree with all rules
I SHOULD follow them more precisely myself
And I did NOT prevent people from joining at ALL
Everyone playing GhR IN THE LADDER was allowed to come. The pass circulated freely.

Anything you are unhappy is not my fault. Period. Quit blaming me.