A new idea: I sure hope you all read this!

[Aramarth]

Guys I had a thought the other day.  Most everyone has played Revolt's command and conquer mod right?  Have you noticed that a team wins right when a player hits the smoke, and thus that team's score advances from 1 to 2 (it counts number of control points)?  What if we made a mod that would allow for all 5 of the smoke points, like in domination mode, but it played like c&c? You could then win by killing the enemy, or by total, camping-impossible map control. As some have suggested, make each game win worth points. One for each map location controlled at the end, and one for winning kill-wise.

Scenario 1: Team A camps at their spawn, and kills the enemies as the come in, 2 points
 Team B is wasted save for their last guy, but has 4 control points, and thus wins the match.

Scenario 2: Team A and B advance, A gets more kills, but B has 3 of the 5 locations, score is a tie at 3.

Scenario 3: Team A tries for a smoke rally, and gets 4 of the smoke locations. However, at the last smoke location is team B, and A takes casualties trying to rush the smoke. The last member of A decides to camp it out with his 4 smoke locations (for the win). All B is required to do is take one more column of smoke to tie, or two to win.  Assuming team A has a perfect sensor net, their last player (in my estimation) could resist at two locations running back and forth, unless a simultaneous assault was made on the two.

Scenario 4: Team A has bottled up B by taking 3 of 5 smoke locations and killing 2 while losing 1 their own.  At this point they camp.  Assuming a 4v4, B now has to take one location, each sure to be guarded by 1 enemy (with his buddies on call), using 2 men.  I see several options for B here: they can focus an assault on a single smoke column, and bank on slow reaction time of the enemy's buddies, or they can try their luck on two at once.  If B suceeds, more power to them!  However, if A wins (while camping) haven't they earned it?  They took the fight to the enemy, won by combat, and by territory.

Scenario 5: Team A kills all but one member of team B, after team B has taken 4 locations. They know the location of the last B, and they have a pretty good idea that he is gimped. Question: should we make the points count for just the win in each game, or for a running total in the cb?  Assuming the latter, it now encourages team A to hit the remaining smoke locations before trying to kill the last poor f%^& on team B.

Already I see something that I did not cover, what if the teams have the same number of guys (the classic tie from lms), and no one takes the last (probably the center) column of smoke. Fix it this way: make the center smoke worth more, since it will be the most contested. Two or even 3 points.  That will even eliminate most of the tie game issues I raised above.

Now since this mod would have to be made, we do have some options.  In seige, the assault team does not win automatically if the defense is killed, they must still take the smoke.  We have this choice to make (unless the code is harder than I am aware of for one way or the other).  If we do leave the game running for the victors to take all bases, then the points system as a running cb total I mentioned above becomes a much less worthy debate in my mind.  Granted, I haven't ironed out all the bugs, and you gentlemen will be sure to tear my every word to pieces as is usual of a forum, but gentlemen, this solves the reasonable complaints against warzone that have been raised The only remaining arguments against, in my mind, are those of the people who close their eyes and shout to the heavens, "don't change it," simply because they are too anal to shut up and play a better game.  See guys, all we have to do is make make map control a priority, at least equal to enemy elimination, and the camping issue is solved. It can still be performed, sure, but it is no longer advisable, unless you have already won the battle as in scenario number 4.

And while we embark upon this mission to mod Ghost Recon to reward its competitors for ground gained and enemies killed, why not consider the other thorn in my flesh about the game, and fix the kits which issue a second set of binoculars to a self-respecting soldier of the US Army.

[Aramarth]

I have already had a comment raised that I do not want to have to repeat myself defeating more than once, so I place it here since that is what this is for.

The comment was made that no mod allows a lone player who has lost his teamates a fighting chance for victory.  Gentlemen, he had no better chance in LMS either.  My idea does not concern itself with a time limit as in the warzone mod, you have the full 10 mins.  Nor does that arguement have bearing.  I can't tell you how many times I told my teamates after I was shot, "kill one of them or we lose, and be quick about it."  You can't claim that the last guy should have a chance, his team was already wasted, so he deserves to lose!  How any mod can be expected to allow the last guy a fighting chance when any time limit (or the map, for another topic and time) is involved is beyond me.

The opinion was also presented that the games should be about "kill, kill, kill."  This guy, while good intentioned for gaming purposes, shows he knows nothing about combat.  Location control is the only priority in our wars, unless you count keeping your men alive.  People, if any troop leader in today's world took 50% casualties to his force, he would be treated worse than a war criminal.  It isn't done by kills anymore, you have to go back to the first world war to find that! And even then and before that they fought over places on a map, not for just killign the other guy. One more dead enemy doesn't get you squat, its taking that enemy's home, his wife, his food, his beer, and his lifelong accomplishments, teh burial ground of his fathers, and HIS MOMMA'S COOKIN that really gets you somewhere!

I beg you people to think reality, and think what people actually fight over.  If anyone acted as we do in a war setting, it would be seen as barbaric.  I don't know if i covered it, but let me change something from above: no points should be awarded for having more kills unless you kill ALL the enemies.  Leaving any to fight another day gets you no points in combat, what gets your somewhere is controlling ground and total elimination of the enemy.

US troops die in Iraq today because we had the victory my opponents call for, number of kills, instead of total ground control or total elimination. Yes that is off color, but its about time for it.

[Jeb]

i'll have to think about this more... But i know that the C&C mod is make a whole lot better (its the one that won't allow spawn kills isnt it?).
It seems that a cb would turn into a race to get the smoke if it was only a 2v2, but i'll have to visuallize this better. I think this would show a whole lot more potential for multiclan cbs perhaps.
The only other issue is who can make this? Most of us mac users are noobs when it comes to igor, or even mod making.

[Aramarth]

Jeb, if it gets ome decent gaming around here, I will learn IGOR and use vpc to make it work.  C&C is basically two way seige, each team has smoke, and the team to hold both wins instantly, without the normal 5 secs it takes in seige.  When applied to 5 bases as I suggest, everyone would have to attack and defend and use their heads to win.  The 2 on 2 I didnt consider (nice catch), and I am thinking tht maybe a 3v3 is minimum for this to be worthwhile.

[1ine]

 
This is the dumbest idea yet.....
Who the fuck thought of this....
Obviously only a handfull have read....
Think before you speak.....

[Aramarth]

Revolt, not afraid to try and deface a guy who is and has dedicated his clan to doing the right thing. I'm sorry if you simply can't handle someone trying to make a difference, but your childish retorts get you nowhere.

I will make my little mod, and I will play it.  And if some people cant handle the fact that I believe effort ought to be put into improving the *damn bl, well they can go breathe propane and try to light up for all I care.
(interesting mental image, eh?)

[Ssickboy]

PLease make the mod!!  


it does really sound interesting.  But for any majority of people to understand what you're talking about, they need to play it.  

here's my initial opinion:  The adding of points at the end of each round sounds like a pain in the rear.  Would be nice if the final result was all inclusive.  winner and loser  

[Jeb]

Hell,
i dunno what the deal with revolt is, but why not welcome inovation in games, thats what mods are for.
However I couldn't concieve of this being done before the next season (if mauti ever gets back from vacation). But its a good idea and it would be interesting to see.

[Rampage]

Aramarth m8, i think everyone would agree that your eagerness for improvement and good changes, are always welcome. u are detailed about everything(i should know) but....Pasting that pm convo between you and Revolt is as childish as you say he is m8. If there is a gripe between you and him, it should be handled in private, not here.

But back to the mod - its a cool mod and your suggestion is a good one. i'd like to see what you do with it. we could host it on our [one] server to see if it pleases the crowd, and maybe after i Talk with Revolt, and u and him find out that your differences are as small as a little love affair and distance teenage crush for eachother and no one has deared to admit their passionate love for one another, will make a wholesome relationship that can work on a great mod together.
i'll be the first to admit that i think that Gambit is a hot piece of ass  

My humble thoughts

[one] Rampage

[PLOPje]

sounds interesting but I can't say much untill I played it
would take some time before it is made maybe something for season 6

[Aramarth]

I can explain it more simply if that is what the people need.  Think seige, you know, smoke to guard or take. OK. Now think 5 smoke locations, one at each spawn, and one in the middle of the map (the hamburger location). Each column of smoke counts for a point. When your team get all 5, or 5 points, you win. I did throw many more ideas in there, like increasing the point value for the center smoke, but now you should have the basic idea.

So basically, you cant rush the center, as that is one main complaint against warzone, you have to take control of the entire map, despite the enemy's efforts to stop you. Oooh, it could really get exciting without sensors...lol

Yes I will make it, no arguements there.

Rampage: ^{_{Revolt made it public by saying much more offensive things on GR, I was just trying to show how irrational he was. Though, it should be widely known already...AHEM! I will take down the quote, because you are absolutely right.}}

[BFG]

Aramarth, sounds good fun, love to play the mod if it ever materialises... The more variety and game types available the more fun (i think). Go for it.

(ps. CTF is also great fun ;0)   )

[Fusion]

After Speaking with Aramarth for great links tonight, I think these mod is a much better alternative to warzone. If you camp you lose easy as that. Many details still need to be worked out, but after talking to Some of my guys tonight, if it works out like we think it will, we would support that as an alternative to warzone. Mauti I hope you would consider this mod as you are considering the warzone mod. We are hoping to see a beta very soon. Possibly even before these season starts. Please give your ideas about the mod.

[SAR(VoLaTile)]

I think its a great idea ara!

[Aramarth]

Well, it looks like I have sponsorship now.  I know you guys don't understand exactly what all of my text means, from the questions fusion asked.  

So here it is, the Absolutely free ask-aramarth session! Go ahead, don't be shy. Ask me what you do not understand about the mod, and I will answer it.  

You could even email me if you don't want the public criticism this forum will provide aramarth@vt.edu

[GEN BILLY]

make it up aramarth

sounds like a great alternative to the game

wouldnt hurt to try it out and if we all like it voila another mod others will cry about

so just make it to piss off the rest

lol

[Saberian 3000]

I applaud Aramarth for wanting to make a mod, but before you guys get all bent about mods being introduced into cbing check out fridge's statement.  it makes sense.

[Ssickboy]

How Does This Sound?

What if we allow the lesser ranked team to choose initial game type?
Once in the match:

By BL rules, the Game Type is forced to stay the same each game.  Or...

By BL rules, between rounds the losing team has the option to choose...
                1. a new map with the same Game Type,
                                         OR
                2. a new Game Type (and winner chooses map)

[.::|N| DIESEL]

After all the clan battles throughout the season sick,  it sounds much too complicated.  

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

Once I get my mod running, I will have an opinion on if it is a possible improvement. LMS, in its current form, is something we can no doubt do better than.

I cant wait to try out the mod... I tried out war zone.. didn't like it. I will try out your b4 passing jugement. It sonds like a good idea.. just need to see how it "plays"... let me know if you need some one to help test mod!!