Questions & Concerns pertaining to Season 5. **Caution - EXTREMELY LENGTHY**

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Ok first of all...

The script only allows one challenge at a time.. the #1 team can decide not to take this challenge which then becomes a forfiet for that team meaning the challenging team moves up..

Challenge feature, not rank scoring.  There is a difference between the two.

It's not a rule its apart of the script its automated this way.

A script is just an automated rule.

As for the "want more" i was in 3rd place on the 1v1 and beat the #1 ranked player an moved into 1st place.

Then your explanation of the rank based system isn't accurate either, is it?  Even on your site it says you move half the distance, but half the distance between first and third is second, no?  So it's not the black and white simple that you have said.  Where does it cut off?  You are touting the system without giving out the information.

You don't go down for loosing... you move down when someone else earns a spot ahead of you. You stay inactive and you move down rankings... as to not hog up the ranks...

Like I said, you can lose and lose and lose, and still be in first place.  How is that right?  So if 1st loses to 20th, 20th is now 10th.  1st loses to them again, 20th (10th after last win) is now 5th.  In the mean time, 1st loses to 3 other low ranked clans.  Tell me, in what universe should a system let a clan stay in first after losing to low ranked clans like that?  It may not be likely, but it sure as hell is possible as you have laid the ranking system out.

By not having a cb limit, each team is encouraged to cb more and not worry about moving down the line... making for a ladder that will be more in use... especially with all these new clans already doing practice cbs....

Depends on the rules of the challenge system.  If you are only allowed to challenge within so many ranks, then that limits the number.  And how much time to complete a challenge?  That limits the number of CB's too.

Here's another problem.  It relies on the challenge system too much.  There is nothing in the Rank system that encourages CB's.  If the higher ranked clans have nothing to gain by CB'ing lower ranked.  They may not have anything to lose, but also nothing to gain.  So it's up to a challenge system to make it work.  

Now, why don't you spell out all the rules about the challenge system, and we can point out all the abuses that can take place with it?  And don't say it's all automated.  Scripts are just automated rules.

I'm not saying that a challenge system is impossible, but I'm saying the rank / scoring system should be able to stand on it's own, without the need for a challenge system.  

Something DAMN isn't doing nor does it seem like its coming in season 5 either.

And it doesn't seem like you are contributing to it being better either.  Seems like you are just trying to get people to switch.  

I hope i answered your problems with our current ranking/league system.

Nope.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Just a little addition, since I decided to go check out what rules were posted on your league.

First thing I noticed.  Since the challenge system isn't in effect for the siege league, The first ranked clan can pretty much just sit on top, never CB'ing anyone that could beat them, and no way to bypass them.

Now, onto the challenge rules.

You can challenge up to 8 ranks above you.  But not below you?  So, basically, The best team can get knocked out of first just by nobody challenging them in the set amount of time, right?

A team has 4 days to respond to a challenge, and that's just to give possible dates of when.  Then, the challenging team has up to 4 days to pick a time.  But then, there is only a 12 hour window to do the CB?  And I'll quote here:
? A challenged team must then respond to your challenge selecting 4 time/dates and 1 maps.
  ? The earliest a match can be scheduled for is 12 hours after the latest finalizing time.
  ? The latest a match can be scheduled for is 1 days after the the latest finalizing time.
  ? Match times can be between 12 am and 11 pm EST.
  ? You must then finalize the challenge within 96 hours of the challenged team accepting.

Ok, so let's figure this out.  Latest finalizing time is 192 hours (96 +96) from the challenge time (8 days).  But, what it really seems to be is 96 hours after responding with the dates and time. 9(4 days).  Now, the earliest it can be scheduled for is 4.5 days after responding (96 hours being the latest finalizing time plus 12 hours) and the latest can be is 5 days (96 hours plus one day).  So, that's a 12 hour window according to the rules there.  

Match times only between 12am and 11pm EST?  So, what's special about 11pm to midnight that you can't have a match in that one hour??  And if that's just a typo (which would be funny, because it's the same on each page I checked), then you are saying noon - 11pm EST?  Shit, even my clan, all in North America doesn't CB that early, and you are punishing people in different time zones if that's the case.  Oh, and here's an interesting thought.  What if that 12 hour block of possible time happens to be in the black out period?

You give over a week to schedule a match, but a forefit is only 10 minutes?

Did you say simple?

[BTs_eight]

ok first on to your last post...first...

Well in regards to the siege ladder... if you noticed there are no rules for the siege ladder as of yet so no need to have clans challengin each other...

So when we get the siege ladder working then yes then u can challenge.

next on to the challenge rules...
YOU CAN challenge a clan the old fashion way.. according to the rules no schedule matches are allowed...

and yes 4 days...
Imagine if your the leader of your clan... and only u take control... like most clans... You play at the office and decided to go home for the weekend... if we set this to less days you can be forfieting matches without knowing....

And with the power of gameraner youd be so suprised  at how quickly one clan will tell another that they have been challenged.

Now the challenge system.. since you never tried it...
1. A person challenges you
2. You then get to choose 4 dates and 1 map.
3. The one challenging then chooses 1 of those 4 dates and then finalizes the challenge...
4. once both parties have finalized an agreed with everything, they even could do it before the date schedule if wanted....

Yes still simple.. unless your a monkey...

As for the league again i say, that it was created for more styles of gameplay so clans dont get stuck playing other games (dungeon siege) being bored of one style of clan battling.

And as for me not contributing to this league? I played over 55 cbs this season alone... I try an help keep this league alive by playing as much as i can... Yes i went out an started another league... But at least i was upfront an honest about it (magleague?)


and once im done eating ill respond the the post before last...

[BTs_eight]

Ok..

I'm not to keen on that qouting stuff so im going to # each little blue box and respond to em.

1. That is the challenge system... and the result is scoring for not acceptng a challenge.

3. You move half way up... So if your in 3rd an you beat #1 u move halfway which should be 1.5... Which then the script rounds upwards.. In this case moving #3 to #1 spot. Instead of the 1.5 spot.

4. You scoring system doesn't allow for penalty points for loosing right? As in you don't loose points for loosing a cb right?
Well if a person/team is in 1st place and if you can't loose points using your system.. then the guy in 20th place would need to play 1st a few times in order to move up the quickest by gaining the max amount of points correct? Same as the ranking system only less numbers by not using Points... Points make things a bit more difficult... why look at points when you see who is ranked what...


5. Since i explaind the whole challenge thing in the previous post... ahh lemme just say it again...
You can do the old fashion way of chalenging someone... Just goto Gameranger and ask... Meaning that the rules allow for no schedule matches... It's in the rules... trust me i know...

6. I am contributing by trying to giving damn suggestions as to what has worked so far on our league... Again what have you done for DAMN? other then make up this purse system for magleague only to be rejected and now coming here like your DAMN's saviour? And making me look like the bad man for mentioning it all here...

Hey i remember awhile back another member of our fine league (DAMN) posted some rule suggestions and posted a link to another league which is one of the finest PC leagues around.

Dude... Seriously... Don't knock it till you try it..

You all have said that there are alot of problems with the ranking system yet i still have yet to see one. Especially since most PC ladders (some of the more successful ones) run this script.

Now i think i have re-answered everything for you...

If you have any questions be sure to read the small Help/FAQ on our site and if you need further assitance you can msg or email any of the BTL admins...


Thnx Bucc..
Peace

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Well in regards to the siege ladder... if you noticed there are no rules for the siege ladder as of yet so no need to have clans challengin each other...

But, you said this was for different game types, and you don't have the siege game type in there?  Ok, that makes sense.

YOU CAN challenge a clan the old fashion way.. according to the rules no schedule matches are allowed...

That change a thing about the problem I brought up.  Since one can't use the challenge feature, if nobody challenges them (or agrees to play them) they drop out of first.  Let's see if the monkey can figure that one out.

and yes 4 days...
Imagine if your the leader of your clan... and only u take control... like most clans... You play at the office and decided to go home for the weekend... if we set this to less days you can be forfieting matches without knowing....

What does this have to do with what I said?  What are you answering?  I pointed out that it takes 8 days to set up a challenge according to your rules, but there is only a 12 hour window to play the actual game in.  12 hours.  hmm.  

Way to not answer another question at all.

Now the challenge system.. since you never tried it...

Ah, I love it when people make stupid assumptions and look like complete idiots.  So, I've never been in a league with a challenge feature, is that what you are telling me eight?  Nice try to dismiss me, but it is not the case.

1. A person challenges you
2. You then get to choose 4 dates and 1 map.
3. The one challenging then chooses 1 of those 4 dates and then finalizes the challenge...
4. once both parties have finalized an agreed with everything, they even could do it before the date schedule if wanted....

Yes still simple.. unless your a monkey...

Well then, maybe I should ask the monkey, it would probably answer the problems with that <sarcasim> simple</sarcasim> set of rules.  Way to ignore the problems I pointed out with the rules pulled from your own site.  Congrats.  Want a banana?

And as for me not contributing to this league? I played over 55 cbs this season alone... I try an help keep this league alive by playing as much as i can... Yes i went out an started another league... But at least i was upfront an honest about it (magleague?)

Ignores the point.  You are here in a thread where we are talking about how to improve THIS LEAGUE, and it seems you are just trying to advertise your league.  That's the point.

Oh, and what about magleague are you talking about?  I'm interested in hearing this?  It should be creative if nothing else.

So, where we stand on the first half.  What didn't Eight really answer?
- he still doesn't understand the difference between a challenge system and a score/rank system.  He keeps just talking about them like it's all one thing.
- he completely missed the point about it taking 4-8 days to play a challenge CB, but the rules only allow for a 12 hour window to pick the dates/times to play in.
- he didn't talk about the match time restrictions at all.

So, basically, he didn't really answer anything in that post.  Let's try for the second half now.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

1. That is the challenge system... and the result is scoring for not acceptng a challenge.

What I'm talking about, again, is that the challenge system is not the rank system.  You are treating it as one.  The whole RANK SYSTEM is flawed.  It's biggest flaw is that without the challenge system, it doesn't work at all.  I also keep pointing out that a challenge system can be added to any ladder.  So please stop using the challenge system to defend the RANK BASED SCORING.  Thank you.

BTW, what happened to #2?

3. You move half way up... So if your in 3rd an you beat #1 u move halfway which should be 1.5... Which then the script rounds upwards.. In this case moving #3 to #1 spot. Instead of the 1.5 spot.

Where did you learn that math?  That must be that new math.  If you move half way from 3 to 1 you end up in 2nd place by my math.

Let's see.  The difference between 1 and 3 is 2.  Half of 2 is 1.  Moving up one from 3rd is 2nd.  So, if you move half the distance from 3rd to 1st, you get 2nd.

Let's see, where did your math come from?  1.5 is half of 3.  I thought it was half the distance, not half the number.  If it works your way, if I'm in 20th, and I beat 19th, I move up to 10th, right?  Half of 20 is 10, right?  Well, that's the way you did the math there.  Half of 3, not half the DIFFERENCE, like you talk about.

So, is the math screwed up in your scripts?  Or the faq's that explain it?

BTW, the monkey thinks it's 1.5  =D

4. You scoring system doesn't allow for penalty points for loosing right? As in you don't loose points for loosing a cb right?
Well if a person/team is in 1st place and if you can't loose points using your system.. then the guy in 20th place would need to play 1st a few times in order to move up the quickest by gaining the max amount of points correct? Same as the ranking system only less numbers by not using Points... Points make things a bit more difficult... why look at points when you see who is ranked what...

Wow, you missed the base completely with that one.  In fact, I think you ran back to the dugout.  

First, my 4th point was how under your RANK SYSTEM, first could lose and lose and lose, have more losses then wins, and still be in first, as long as they didn't lose to #2 (or even #3 in your new math).  First could have 3 times as many losses as wins, and still be in first.

Second, in the system we brought up, 1st can get passed by other clans, just by them winning against other good clans enough.  The only way a team could be in first with many losses under our system is if they CB'd many many more times then anyone else.  And they'd still have to win more then they lost.

Third, Purse Points don't make it more difficult at all.  You know how many points you will get for beating them without doing any math.  I don't have to figure out what the half way point is of 38 going against 19.  Easy, but I don't have to do it.  All I have to do is look at the fact that 19 has X amount of purse points up for grabs and where will that put me.  A simple addition vs a subtraction and divide by 2.  I think the single step wins for simplicity.  Sorry.  No points for you that round.

5. Since i explaind the whole challenge thing in the previous post... ahh lemme just say it again...
You can do the old fashion way of chalenging someone... Just goto Gameranger and ask... Meaning that the rules allow for no schedule matches... It's in the rules... trust me i know...

Doing it the old fashioned way.  True.  But you touted that it "encourages more CB's".  Doing it the old fashioned way isn't really encouraging more cb's, it's doing it the same old way.  Hmm.  Didn't really answer the concern there either.

I notice that you continue to duck the point that the Challenge Feature should be separate from the Rank System.  That the Rank System should be able to stand on it's own.

Again what have you done for DAMN? other then make up this purse system for magleague only to be rejected and now coming here like your DAMN's saviour?

Hmm, that's an interesting take on it.  Want me to get the boys from MagLeague in here and ask them if they rejected this?  Since MaG is running on my servers, I don't think they'd reject it at all if I asked them to script it up.  Hell, I could even set myself up as the head of the ladder.  But that's not what I'm looking for.  Same for the rest of the guys involved with this (since, it's as much Loth, Jeb, Brain and Ace as it is me)  we all worked on it.

But that's ok, you can just print something like that out of your ass, and be wrong.  It's always amusing to watch.  Oh, I wont deny that we talked about offering it up to MagLeague when we were talking about a SIEGE LADDER.  But, that's right, you weren't in all those conversations and are making assumptions.  When we decided that a siege ladder was just going to be too much BS.

You all have said that there are alot of problems with the ranking system yet i still have yet to see one. Now

i think i have re-answered everything for you...

NOT EVEN CLOSE.  You have ducked most of the points that I made that are wrong with the system, and just tried sling some mud (and not very well).

If you have any questions be sure to read the small Help/FAQ on our site and if you need further assitance you can msg or email any of the BTL admins...

I posted right from your pages, and you just ignored it.  Like it would do any good to send in an e-mail.

Whatever Eight.  You asked what was wrong, and I pointed.  You can ignore it, that's fine by me.  But you ignoring it isn't really going to drive clans to your ladder now, is it.

[BTs_eight]

Ok maybe i wont resspond to you...

1.5 + 1.5 = 3
Did i do the math wrong?
The siege ladder is up for you to signup on just hasnt started yet...

4 days to setup the challenge...

You know what your taking everything i said and changing everything around...

Besides i was told by one of the MP guys about MagLeague not wanting to host any GhR Ladders... to me that looks like your idea was rejected. Sorry if i assumed wrong... There is alot of that going around... on both ends..

[Mr. Lothario]

     Hopefully we can stop discussing the BT League now and resume discussing the *DAMN League. : ) The fifth season is rapidly approaching, and there has been no resolution, let alone adequate discussion, regarding the matter of a remade point system. The purse points system has been laid out for the community's perusal, so what do you think of it? Are there any alternative ideas rattling around out there? What do you think of Mauti's new system? Tune in next time, same bat-time, same bat-channel!

[alaric]

I really like this purse-points system and move that it be accepted as the offical ranking system for the *DAMN BL.

However, if Mauti or anyone has another rank system or changes to the purse-points system, please post your ideas, I look forward to reading them.

Mauti, how long till we can get a look at all the changes you plan to make for season 5?

[*DAMN Mauti]

Actually there will be a 5week break between season 4 and 5 so we can work and finish some of our scripts that are in the work for quite a while.

So far a modified "purse point system" will come, namly as Combat Point System with penalty points. However I#ll discuss this once the season 4 is over.

Bye,

Mauti

[Mr. Lothario]

     That's good to hear, Mauti. Hurry up with the finals, people. : D

[Mr. Lothario]

     The season's over, so let's hear your plans, Mauti.    I, for one, am excited about this process.

[Valdar]

Am I the only one who feels that the current season length is too damn long?  I don't think we should expect clans to keep up for such a long span of time. Individuals lose interests and in the span of 3 months a lot of people retire.  You obviously don't want a season too short, but you also don't want a season too long...