This has gotten ridiculous.

[Supernatural Pie]

I'm tired of the constant complaining.
Every three seconds, someone is demanding that a cb be canceled. Everyday, someone else asks for a rule to be changed. Every cb, a clan is demanding to have proof that the other clan did not cheat.

My question is, is it really worth it anymore?

At what point do the absurdities of endless rules and regulations that govern a cb completely take away the presence of the fun of the competition and the game?

How many people can honestly say that they remember the days when it was not about the win at any and all costs, and not about who cheated, and not about who glitched, on purpose or not.

How many people can say that they remember the days of anticipated rivalries, such as when SWAT vs. KoS would have a multi-hour cb, and it was all remarked as a good game, and the players were left with a feeling of not remorse for a loss, nor a magnified ego from a win. They left the cb with a feeling of anticipation for the next time the two would face each other.

Now, in no way am I supporting cheaters when I say this, but if a clan cheats, or if you have a suspicion of them cheating, why do you waste hours of your life trying to obtain a screenshot that was never taken, or a chat log that was erased. Why not just avoid cbing them in the future? Who the hell cares if they get a few points added on to their score. The ladder is a place where competition and fun should prevail. It should not be a place where people should try to boost their social status... because it won't. Winning a battle league ladder will get you no where in life. Sure, it's fun for those times in your day where you might have nothing to do... but for your own sake... I'm getting myself lost. I have so much on my mind about all of this.

What I'm really trying to get to is?

Why do people ruin the fun? When will people learn to stop caring about such miniscule occurances?

Over a year ago, gameranger knew clans like MI6 (original, not the cheap-ass copying clan), KoS, PsYcO, SWAT, Seals, FBI, DAMN, EUR, Virus, NADS, etc.
I respected all of these clans. All of them played the game, knowing it was just a game. Competitions were high, but they did not go to the extreme levels of eye-gouging and neck-slashing that can be seen every day on the forums now.

When will we all learn to shut up. When will we all learn to relax.

I just hate seeing clans such as BTs, MOD, DFA, Tribe, etc. getting into endless arguments which... well... *sigh*

It ruins the fun, and isn't this supposed to be about fun?

Mauti, I respect you so much for organizing such a large-scale competition, and a place where people can come together to have fun. It just saddens me when people use your system, and use it as a place to spit on reputions, and make mockeries of others.

*AgT* and |MP| have moved out of the Bar and Grill. Maybe someday when you all grow up, we'll reconsider coming back. Thank you all for your time.

Sincerely, Snipe.

[Jeb]

pretty well said snipe,
RS was burdened with 4 times the amount of glitches that ghr has, and no one complained back then. That was a game in which you could stick your head in any wall and kill people, get under the map at various places in the level, hide in boxes and kill people, and not to mention the 5-10 other major glitches each level contained. No one bitched about cheating, because we had more dignity than that.
Now many of you noobs want to get easy wins if someone doesn't follow a rule that checks for fullscreen nightvision, or might have been glitching without proof. How lame is that.
Grow up, have some pride, and accept when you lost.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

I am not sure how it is now, but I don't see the sense of community and trust that I used to see when I prowled around GameRanger. Everyone used to know each other, talk the shit, and get on with things...but now it appears that isn't the case. With the relatively new game (Ghost Recon) hitting the Mac, it has brought more and more outsiders that weren't around previously on GameRanger...resulting in a PC-like experience of mistrust, ill intentions (peeked into BL section and saw some screenies of cheating devices on desktops), and drop in enjoyment. Hell, with the cheating tools that I know exist, it seems like an "owned" shot like I used to pride myself in means anything anymore...a few people I have already seen admit to cheating in games simply because they can (sounds like  PC player ruining the game for the rest of the players).

The big problem here is the influx of players who only care about themselves...many forget that games are meant to be enjoyed and that clans are for friendly competition. The community isn't what it once was - but that is the price to pay with Scott Kevill's growing interests in creating a larger Mac community to bring in more profits (who could blame him).

The big indicator I saw of how the community has changed is when I popped on to GR this last weekend and I didn't even recognize 10% of the people around and just a little more than 10% of the people knew who I was. Oh well, this is a different GR now a days and I hope it can return to how it once was - for the sake of those who were around the old community and appreciated it.

[(SEALs) one]

Hmm...I witness the things Snipe said everyday in the Bar&Grill.
Always Clans fighting each other...like a warzone
When GhR was released there was a surge of newcomers...maybe thats why, but nothing you can do about it, just ignore it.
Players these days are so into the game...

On a side note,
The only "real" problems/disagreements were with Rapid and AK in Rogue Spear.

Now its pretty much every clan besides MP,AgT,one,RnT,ViRuS and a few others.

[kami]

You guys just don't know how true what you say is, back in the day (and I'm not talking about the time when all you RS fags got along and had fun in CBs, I'm talking about the time when the B&G didn't stand for bar & grill, but for bmr & grill), it was all so much more fun. It all changes, for good and bad. I personally had a great time when 20 bmr's were on at the same time and there was just one non-bmr in the room, you guys had fun back when the RS scene was clean, now a days there are probably others having their time of fun... Change of generation or something like that. You just have to find new places to have fun in the community, there's nothing you can do about all the new people anyway. To me, most of you guys are all newbs anyway

[The Ghost of Bondo]

So let me get this straight, now old RS players are talking about how great things were back in the days of RS?  Damnit, bitter complaining is supposed to be reserved for us R6 vets who never got into RS or anything else.  Don't take what little we have left

[Supernatural Pie]

Jeb, sin, one:
Exactly.

And Sin: I remember when you announced you were leaving GameRanger for good, and everyone was asking you to stay in touch, etc.

Well, I've gotta tell you, you're really just not missing much anymore.

Kami: You may regard me as a noob (even if it has been nearly two years), but I remember when bmr's reigned in the b and g. But back in those days, I spent my time in the Construct, as did most of us, watching 5 lines per second scroll up the screen, half of it bashing, one quarter politics, another quarter mac-related.

Anyway, ahhhh. I just can't think straight. It took me such a long time to write my first post, because there was just so much I wanted to get out to all the idiots out there that have ruined the environment. Too many thoughts, too few fingers to type.

[Cossack]

Yeah people piss me off. Thats why I moved to the cubical. As long as you arent a jackass move to the cubical, but the jackasses will come to the cubical and then we will move somewhere else, and then the jackasses will follow.

[Supernatural Pie]

So let me get this straight, now old RS players are talking about how great things were back in the days of RS?  Damnit, bitter complaining is supposed to be reserved for us R6 vets who never got into RS or anything else.  Don't take what little we have left

Bondo, it's not my fault you're stuck in the past.  
And... why are you complaining? I included R6 clans such as Seals and Eur and DAMN in my post. The people must know! BONDO HATES THE NOOBS TOO!
 

[*AgT* SNIperZero]

What bout SiX and SBR they were the top 2 r6 clans. along with SAC. R6 was a.ot better then rs in my opion and if they made a patch where u werent spining all the time in r6 under OSX i would still be playing it all the time those were the good old days

[(SEALs) one]

Aye Sniperzero

Don't forget SEALs ZeroSniper :-)


-Wave

[Saberian 3000]

     I wish the good days of RS were still aound where no one bitched about cheating and whatnot.  To be honest glitching was the only cheat I knew of at that time and since it was pretty clear when someone did that, everyone just agreed non-chelantly that it didnt happen.  Ghost recon is made quite differently then RS.  It seems that you are really comparing two games when if you were to take a fair comparison, you cant really compare the two.  Both are 2 different gaming fields and both have different issues concerned with gameplay.  
     I think the biggest problem that is concerned with catching people cheating is the replay option of Ghost Recon.  As we all know RS did not have that option of the game, therefore in many aspects you had to basically take the word of the other team that nothing was happening.  But with ghost Recon the replay actually tells a lot about you're assumptions.
     As for what Agt one said about the clans that he listed not having problems.  well, I do know that [one] has had as many run ins with other clans as mine has had, just not recently.  And all the other clans he has listed dont really CB, so therefore there would be no argument for a clan that dosent really CB to get into.
     It seems that in the end Ghost Recon has many more cheats for it then RS does.  Plus, since it is so easy for other people to take PC cheats and change them over to a Mac it makes the game less fun cause we have to deal with these issues.  So I do wholeheartidly wish that Ghost Recon was like RS in that aspect of the cheats and whatnot, but the engine that runs it is different, and therefore the problems are more often because of the numerious ways for people to hack into the game and modify it.
     I know that I have talked with many clans about this issue in Ghost Recon and we all pretty much try to find preventions for these cheats, but more and more cheats are being discovered every day, and this is leading to a problem in Ghost Recon.
     Plus for what Assassin said I do agree to that as well.  In RS most of us were a tight knit group of people that knew each other.  In Ghost Recon there are more and more people that come online now a days that ruin it for the hardcore Gamers on Gameranger by trying to think that they are special by cheating.  It makes the game not fun anymore.  But let's face it, when we go into a CB we all want a fair game.  I personally hate taking a 6-0 victory for catching someone cheating and to this day havent.  But what do ya do when ya do catch someone?  You either dont say anything which promotes him or her to do it again with some other hapless clan.  Or you take the initiative and do something about it.  I believe the only way for stopping people from cheating, especially when you catch them doing it is reporting it and going from there.  That way if they suffer a score loss for doing it then they will most likely learn from their mistake and not do it again.  Even a sturn warning will do sometimes from Mauti.  
     I just dont believe that I am trying to get a win out of a loss by following the rules.  There are way more rules to ghost Recon then RS and will be because of these issues with cheating and mod's (clientside, or Serverside).  Plus too many of these clans are using loopholes through the rules as well.  So the only way to perfect the rules is to play fair, by the rules, and hope that no one cheats to win a round in a cb or a CB itself.  And that is all we can do.  And remember, if they haven't started cheating, we wouldnt have a problem.  Although I can say that the BTs glitch we had was proven to be accidental so both BTs and our clan agreed and we have no issues anymore with that.  The |DFA| thing, well, we tried to reasonably solve this issue, but |DFA| took it to a place where it became way out of control.  We have tried and tried to end this issue but if |DFA| wont finish it then there is nothing we can do, and this issue goes on.  
    So just undertand everyone that ghost Recon does have way more issues then RS ever did.  I like RS, even miss it sometimes because of the good games we used to have, but RS again is not Ghost recon.  And now the gameranger id#'s have gone into the 6 digits we got many many newbs in gameranger to fuck with the system that worked so well until now.  

[Typhy]

How true, how true.

The problem isn't the ammount of glitches in Ghost Recon. We've had very few glitch arguments in Rogue Spear CBs, and it has about 50 times the ammount of glitchces as Ghost Recon.

What's all this about? Winning the battle league? What do you get if you win? A picture? Wow, what a prize. Winning the battle league is about respect. If you cheat, you don't get that respect. All you can say is, "I own you". Wow, what's the value of being able to say that you own someone by cheating, if it involves making enimeys throughout this community?

The fact is, anyone who wants to, and has half a brain can cheat. I could go mod up my files right now and never get caught. Rabid only got caught because he was amazingly dumb. If I make a few minor edits, make it so gold's a little stronger, and blue's a little weaker, no one is going to be able to catch me. Why don't I? A better question would be "Why would I?" Just because something can't be proved doesn't change what people think of you.

We can all agree that winning a BL is about respect. What respect do you get if you cheat? ( or glitch. )

I agree indirectly with Assassin. The problem here, is the community, so many people only care about themselves and their clan.

I've always said that I will do what's best for my clan. Well, it seems that lately, people have been taking such ideas to a new level. If I see a good player in another clan who I know that I can pry lose, and bring to MP5, I'll do it, and I'll worry about patching things up with the leader of that clan later. Do I do that because I like to win? Yes. There is no reason I can't be good friends with someone who is in another clan. I bring players because I want to win.

But look at it this way, what's really best for your clan: Losing respect to win a CB, or keeping that respect, and playing the CB fairly. If you've got the skills, you'll win anyway.

This community is held together by honor, respect, and friendships. If mi and MP5 were CBing, and an mi had to leave durring the CB, I'd simply laugh and say "Ok, so you'll be forfiting or playing 1v2? Up to you." Mi has lost all my respect for camping in a CB. However, if a clan like RnT or Killa, or any other clan on the RS ladder for that matter, had a problem with a player needing to leave durring a CB, I'd work out a deal with them, with an agreed time to finish the CB.

I think a lot of clans on the GHR ladder treat every clan the way that I treat mi. That simply won't work. Do your best to make friends in the community, not enimeys.

Is it better to win a CB, but make an enimey for playing cheap, or to lose a CB, but make a friend because of your fair play?

[Mr.Mellow]

Man, Snipe, you're so right. I have noticed more bishing than usual, but I didn't realize the extent of it until now. It's been a gradual thing, kinda slinking and crawling its way under the door. I liked how everyone knew eachother in RS (and R6 too). While it's nice that more people are using GR and supporting Evill, it's also a pain in the rear. In most GhR games, I won't even recognize more than 1 or two people. And, when I make a little joke related to RS/R6 (like humping), people flip out on me. Ahhh. It just ain't fair! I want the old community back. While all of us have been newbs at one point in time, except the folks that started with R6, these new newbies are different. They're crude, rude, and annoying. It reminds me of the B.Net community now. If people would just show others respect, half of these problems would be gone. Also, remember it's just a game, as some people have pointed out already. You don't gain anything by cheating and bitching, other than annoying other people.
Why, in my day, we had to walk in 6 feet of snow, up-hill and down...and there were 150 people in The Construct, and 5 in the Apple Cubicle. How times have changed.

[kos.viper]

coughghostreconsuckscough

Bring on RvS!  I'd still be playing Rogue Spear if it actually worked in OS X, the same as some of you R6 guys.

[Supernatural Pie]

I think i know why everyone that played r6 and rs knows each other.

Rainbow Six and Rogue Spear multiplayer games are based around games that each last about 2-5 minutes. After every single game, the playing stops, and people chat for a minute or two, then start playing again. That is what brought everyone together.

With ghost recon, it's completely different. Games last usually from 10-15 minutes, and the only time in between is spent screaming at people to click "ready". It is unfortunate that Raven Shield will push this even farther.

When you die, you are dead, but while you are dead, you can pick your next kit. As soon as everyone is dead, the game restarts (a lot like medal of honor). This completely eliminates chatting (besides when you are dead). That is why it is my belief that Raven Shield will not solve this problem, and things will not go back to how they used to be when Rogue Spear and Rainbow Six dominated the Top Games list.

The only cure is to go back to playing rogue spear everyone once in a while.

I mostly play ghost recon, but about once a week i'll go back to playing rogue spear, and I swear to god, it is 100 times more fun than ghost recon could ever be, and not just because the graphics are better. (THEY ARE... YOU JUST DON'T KNOW IT BECAUSE EVERYTHING IN GHOST RECON IS A FOOTBALL FIELD AWAY!!!) It's more fun because people talk to each other, play the game, enjoy the game...

... and don't forget the most important part?

Humping!

Ahhh yes, humping... something which was completely lost in ghost recon, mainly due to the fact that there are no more dances with pistols or pdws.

I miss shottie wars.
I miss pistol wars.
I miss c4 wars.
I miss skorp wars.
I miss nade wars.
I miss barrets on maze.
I miss auto-aim wars.

Ghost recon has none of these. And yet, it was the best part of the game for me. Anyone who has ever played on my host knows that I love to alter the game settings. I'll play anything you can think of. I remember one time, I was playing pistol wars on SBII, and I made one team Arctic one medium, and the other team Arctic one light... God Damn... that was a helluva game.

Some of you may remember my famous suicide wars.
Map: Castle
Armor: Heavy
Weapons: Flashes

The first team to have everyone commit suicide by either flashes, jumping off the side of the castle, or a combination of both, wins. Anyone who has ever played that on my host loves it. I've never heard a bad comment about it.

And that, my friends, is what Ghost Recon lacks. And that is why Rogue Spear and Rainbow Six will always be superior. And that is why the community is no longer tightly knit. That is why it will never be the same.

Snipe.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Dunno about you, but I never had auto-aim wars...

You forgot flashbang wars, rubber baton battles, and the very infamous (a great majority of you never had the pleasure of doing this) 16 man ffa in the Met. With those suicide runs, I think Anarchy and I started doing that a long time ago (even before he formed *NADS)...it was pretty funny because the noobs on the other team would try to shoot us in midair as we were jumping to our deaths  

As a correction to my above post, it should read that I didn't recognize 90% of the people online.

[Jeb]

Hey the ICT invented the suicide match on castle (me more specificaly).
Anyhow RS was great, the community was great, the BS was great, and the camping was great. However it just died. Sure it was fun, and i miss Cunt and the ict, but its over.  

IMHO GHR is a time filler till RVS comes out.

[Typhy]

That's one thing I'll never understand; "it was great, I miss it", in reference to Rogue Spear. Hello man, it's still there! There are almost always at least 2 Rogue Spear games hosted. If you really miss it, come play a few rounds. The only thing stopping me from playing even more RS is the fact that I hate OS9.

I guess you could call me "different". I don't like pistol wars, C4 wars, or any of that. I don't like big survival games at Training Maze, and there's nothing that I hate more than campers.  

I often wonder why I still play Rogue Spear. It's graphics suck, RTCW CBs are better ( 16v16, or even my biggest one, 26vs26 own ), Rogue Spear's game play is probably my favorite out of any game yet, however, generaly, I'd trade a tiny bit of the gameplay for better graphics, ability to run in OSX, lag free deticated servers, and huge CBs. Something about Rogue Spear is different.

My skills are about equal in Rogue Spear, Medal of Honor, and Return to Castle Wolfenstine. I love the gameplay in all 3, so why do I still play Rogue Spear? There is only one answer: The community. At MOH and RTCW, I've got my clan, but there is still the lack of a community.

When I join a Rogue Spear game, I usually know about 90% of the people there. That's a big part of what makes it fun. For me, that is yet another reason I dislike Ghost Recon; it's a community of newbies.

In a game where players have the ability to cheat without to much work ( like Ghost Recon ), the only way that it will work out is to have a community of players. We lack that right now. It's as simple as that. We lack the community, and the clan to clan friendships to make it work, and until we have that, there will always be arguments.

Cheat tests aren't the answer. If a player wants to cheat, he is most likely going to be able to, wether cheat tests are done or not. The only solution is friendships and respect. End of story.

[Mr. Lothario]

     ::shrug:: The simple answer: teach the newbies. Show them respect. Talk to them, when you're waiting to enter a game, after you die, between rounds (I make it a point to boot anyone who screams "READY" or "GOGOGO"... it puts a stop to that shit real fast... come to think of it, I used to do that in RS, too), etc. The community has fallen. Now we rebuild.