Helping the helpless again, Loudnotes?

[|MP|Buccaneer]

One of my favorite things about arguing with Loudnotes, Bondo, Brain, and others, is that they stick to the facts of the argument. They don't feel a need to throw 'personal attacks' into their posts.

Does calling someone a dumbfuck 10 times in a post actually help your argument at all?

Actually, Bondo throws personal attacks at me all the time. And if you remember, I never attacked that asshole until he made that very hurtful slander of my friend.  Since he deserves absolutely no respect at all, I find insulting him to be appropiate in any case.

But, more to the point, I'll mention a few things.  First, look at me and Tasty.  We have agreed on almost nothing in our arguments.  We don't throw many insults at each other (some debates have gotten very heated, but that's ok, it makes you want to debate more).  But look at them, you see me just randomly throwing out personal insults?  Well that's the way you just made it sound.  Look at you and I.  We've talked plenty.  Have I just trown personal insults at you willy nilly?  We don't agree on things, and we've expressed our opinions, but would you call them personal attacks?  If so, we are both guilty of them, but I dont' think they are.

Second, and think about this, sometimes the asshole that the post is attacking isn't the audience that it's meant for.  So does it help my argument with the dumbass in question, no.  But if I thought that dumbass in question could be reasoned with in the first place, there probably wouldn't have been the personal attack.  So, does it help my arguments, yes, in some cases it does, just not with the person you think I'm aiming at.

This is one of the sad things about your posting style. You often bring up very good points, and some useful facts. However, beacuse your posts are filled with 'personal attacks', I don't feel that I can work off of your points without screwing up my own case. If you work off of someone points, you are grouped with them for the given thread. I don't want to be grouped with someone who can't make a respectful post.

That's ok.  You don't need to work off my posts, or take my side.  You have to debate in your own style, what you are comfortable with.  

My only gripe here is that you insinuate that I never make a respectful point.

Perhaps you should've taken such polls and threads as advice, instead of just criticism.

Typhy, once is constructive.  But we went back and forth in PM's, then the 4 or 5 threads with polls came out.  That's no longer constructive, but attacking.  It's known as harrassment.  

More to the point I was making though, Loudnotes knew full well (because we had discussed it) that I considered that a personal attack.  While he pretends to be against them, he not only partakes in them, but iniates them at times.  That is hypocritical to say the least.  I also told him quite a few times that he may not like my insults, but I found him just as insulting, in the left handed way he said things to me.  Now, he didn't find any merrit in changing his "style" to be less insulting to me either.  So, in other words, he plays at the high moral ground while not actually being there.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

You obviously have different ideas of what a 'personal attack' is.

Most of this thread is me criticising his moderating, and the way that he's handled the whole 'Snipey issue'.

Yes, we do.  And I just pretty much covered that.

But, that wasn't the point I was trying to make with that statement, I didn't say it well.  I am agreeing with you that he's not even handed in his moderating, not talking about his posting.  I'm trying to point out that he's deleted a few "personal attacks" of mine, saying that I was just restating what I said and adding personal insults so he considered it spam, while he lets bullshit posts like Rapid has made the last few days, or like Bondo has made towards me in the past.  That's what I meant by him not moderating with an even hand.  He says he's trying to stop the personal attacks, but he only picks and chooses some of them, based on feeling sorry for Snipey or his friendship with Bondo.

Or, is it not a personal attack because I presented my case in a respectful way? In my opinon, a personal attack on a forum is someone throwing in insults which in no way help their argument. What's yours?

First, this isn't a personal attack yet.  Criticism in and of itself isn't a personal attack, especially when posted in a respectful way.  However, once it is fully discussed, if you keep bringing it up, over and over, no matter how respectful, it is then.  So, if this thread plays out, and it ends, no, it's not been a personal attack.  But if you start 3 or 5 or 10 more threads about it, then I would consider it a personal attack.  You see, attacks can be disguised with plenty of nice writing and politeness.  It doesn't not make them an attack, it just makes them harder to spot.

Second, the problem with your definition is that it's too subjective.  "Throwing insults which in no way help their argument".  Who decides if the insult helped?  If the writer thinks they did, was he breaking a rule?  With no set guidelines, it's completely subjective.  And, that leads us to the problem at hand, that we think one of the moderators judgement is skewed.  For different reasons, but to the same point.

Thrid, I never said personal attacks were a very bad thing or something that needed to be avoided.  I'm just saying that he hasn't upheld his own, self proclaimed values or moderated to them very well.

I look upon personal attacks differently. If they're in response to another personal attack. If Snipey makes up some bullshit quotes, I have no problem if a person retaliates. In some cases, you have to change your style on a thread to thread basis.

And I pretty much agree with you here Typhy.  I weigh posts and posters before responding to them.  Everyone starts with a full measure of respect, Newb and vet alike.  What I don't do is measure individuals from thread to thread.  You see, three people here have earned a complete 0% of my respect.  And I do mean earned it.  Some others here have earned my greatest respect.  I have a good amount of respect for someone like Tasty for instance.  The only things I don't respect about him is that he lets his hate of Bush color his opinions too broadly.  That he's just too emotional about him.  We don't agree, but I respect him.  He makes good points.  Often wrong =P, but good points.  In other words, (big, important words) HE MAKES ME THINK.  And that's really the name of the game in the debating we do.  I think he'd agree with that (everything except him being wrong ofcourse).  So, other then in the very heat of an argument, we don't really insult each other.  We don't love each other's writing style, but that's just not very important on the whole.  Then you have people like Zeitsev, that I insult often, based on his posts, but when he makes good ones, I don't.  When I've seen him not be a parrot of someone elses thinking, where he can really debate, I've afforded even him respect.  

Well, :::Sits back and watches::: Either this will go over well, and perhaps give each of you some ideas. . . Or I'll piss off Bucc. . . Or, I'll piss off both of you.

Wish for the best.  

No Typhy, it doesn't piss me off.  It hasn't given me any ideas, because it's ground we've covered, nothing new.  Sorry.  Maybe you'll understand me a little better from this, maybe not.  But you've given your opinion, and there's nothing wrong with that in my book.  

[Typhy]

Ok Bucc, I understand where you're coming from, and while I don't agree, I can accept most of what you said.

You're obviously not a very forgiving person. You think of the worst of what people have done, and don't give people multiple chances. I can accept that.


Someone like Loudnotes and me give a person a new life in each thread ( until they reach the point which Snipey had ). In my opinion, that makes for more pleasent convorsations and arguments; however, it's your choice.

I still would like answers to the two questions from the end of my post, though.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

You're obviously not a very forgiving person. You think of the worst of what people have done, and don't give people multiple chances. I can accept that.


Someone like Loudnotes and me give a person a new life in each thread ( until they reach the point which Snipey had ).

Only problem there is that what makes you think these two clowns haven't reached that point with me Typhy?  I do give people multiple chances, but they do reach a point, and these two guys both crossed it a while ago.  If I didn't give people multiple chances, you and I wouldn't be talking civilly, for example.  We've had our differences, but we still get along.  I could easily assume that you are less forgiving then I, since the crap between you and Snipey hasn't been going on as long or as personal.  But I don't, because I know that people have their own personal boundaries.  Bondo and Loudass may not cross yours, just like Snipey hasn't crossed mine.  So don't judge that too harshly, especially since you haven't seen half the conversations that go on in my case.

I still would like answers to the two questions from the end of my post, though.

You posted those while I was making that long post, so I didn't see them before (teaches me to start a post and walk away from it without refreshing).

First answer:  I consider it unreasonable because in my opinion, he doesn't practice what he preaches.  A quick and simple example, without getting into more personal issues, I've told him repeatedly I think it's rude as hell to edit a quote I've made (put it in quotes, but paraphrase).  It's not a quote, it's a misquote, and I find it very, very insulting.  I point it out, he continues it.  He does it on purpose, saying that he doesn't understand why it bothers me so much.  There's the heart of it.  He doesn't understand why it insults me, even though I've tried to explain it, so he pushes it.  So, to bottom line this, I find his tone with me and his quoting of me much more insulting than if he called me a motherfucking cocksucking child molester, and I said these words to him months ago.  He's done nothing to make the situation better, after I tried to explain that to him multiple times, so what I see is him only respecting what he thinks is rude, not what others think is rude.

Add to that the fact he considers my style of quoting a personal attack (not talking about insults, just me quoting, like I've done with you).  Now, you may see them as different things, but he's pointed out on multiple occasions that he thinks it's attacking.  

Now sprinkle in the unequal ways in which he enforces this want of his.  He doesn't go for the source in all cases, not at all.  You yourself have seen this.  He picks and chooses who he is going to censor and who he isn't.  Rapid, who Mauti has suspended from the BL for bad mouthing Grifter did it again this week, but no, our super peacekeeper Loudass doesn't do anything about that.  Bondo and Snipey seem to get special considerations, because of friendship or feeling sorry.  That's stuff for him to post as a member, not to edit as a moderator.  So I really don't trust his judgment.  Which is where this all started, with my post in this thread about it being outrageous for him to ask people with a negative opinion (not insulting mind you, but negative opinion) to not post when someone comes here and asks for that opinion.  

A final thought, and I've said this before, if you want to make people follow the rules, they have to know those rules.  He has his opinion of what insulting is, I have mine.  He has his opinion of what good manners are, I have mine.  He has his opinion of what my posting style should be, I have mine.  But, he's trying to enforce rules that are not there to be followed.  He's threatened me about "breaking the rules", and I've asked in many threads where I can find them.  They seem to be in his little head.

I've already answered your second question in the body of that two parter, so I don't think I need to hit it again.  Short answer is yes, and I'm a Lenny Bruce fan too.  

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Ok Bucc, I understand where you're coming from, and while I don't agree, I can accept most of what you said.
 

By the way, what didn't you agree with?  My opinion of Loudass in general?  That I have good reason to feel the way about him that I do?  Something else?

[Typhy]

while he lets bullshit posts like Rapid has made the last few days

I think Loudnotes already explained that. You, unlike Rapid, are able to accept when you have a post deleted, and not make a big deal about it. While I think it's a warped way to work, I can't say I wouldn't do the same.

Only problem there is that what makes you think these two clowns haven't reached that point with me Typhy?

I understand how Rapid and Bondo could've reached that point with their attacks on Grifter. However, knowing Loudnotes posting style, and reading most of the threads that he posts in, I don't see how he could've reached that point with you, so either I've missed lots, of we simply have different standards.

Ack, more soon!  [/color]

[jn.loudnotes]

Well, I'll ignore the blatant falsehoods in those posts.  I can't repeatedly restate myself, here or in the other forum part.  Both of us have a right to not be constantly on the defensive, and I've maintained that attacking is not how I'll reverse that.

Just to correct a large misconception, I've never claimed to be perfect.  However, Bucc, just as I am one of few who complain about your posting style, you are one of few that complain about my moderating.  It works just fine with only a few exceptions, which I've corrected.

As Bucc has stated to me, not everything is subjective.  There are some concrete things that are not subject to opinion.  Among these is whether calling someone a flaming cocksucking dumbass fucker is insulting.  Agreed, my points, which I try to make politely might be considered insulting by your opinion, though I have stated that that is not the intent.

My issue with Bucc is that there is no diplomacy.  No pretense of not being insulting.  Never an attempt at civility.  Everything is upfront, honest, rude, and intolerable.

Also, the superiority is stifling.  Bucc has judged me well in realizing that that attitude is what provokes me.  The only thing I really can't stand is being talked down to, repeatedly and after direct askance of stopping.  

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I think Loudnotes already explained that. You, unlike Rapid, are able to accept when you have a post deleted, and not make a big deal about it. While I think it's a warped way to work, I can't say I wouldn't do the same. [/color]

Problem is, I don't accept it in the way it came across.  Because it's not just Rapid's insults that he hasn't deleted (Bander and Bondo come quickly to mind).  First, I don't agree with him not doing it with Rapid.  If he was trying to make people in the forum hold to a higher standard, that's where he would start, not ignore.  Because as long as you can turn to those posts and point to them showing a worse example, how can any moderation be just?  If he really wanted this to be a nicer place, as he claims, he would do it across the board, even if it were harder.  That's the price he pays to make the change.  His not doing it is why I think it's all a bunch of BS.

However, knowing Loudnotes posting style, and reading most of the threads that he posts in, I don't see how he could've reached that point with you, so either I've missed lots, of we simply have different standards.
[/color]

Typhy, unless you are also reading the Black Ops section, and the 20 or so PM's that have flown between us in the past, you haven't come close to reading it all.  And, even with that, you and I have different standards, which I've already said is fine.  Like I pointed out, Snipey has reached that point with you, but I don't see why.  What I do know is that I can respect the fact that he has.  Get my point?

However, Bucc, just as I am one of few who complain about your posting style, you are one of few that complain about my moderating.  It works just fine with only a few exceptions, which I've corrected.

What few exception have you corrected?  Are you doing it evenly?

My issue with Bucc is that there is no diplomacy.  No pretense of not being insulting.  Never an attempt at civility.  Everything is upfront, honest, rude, and intolerable.

With you right up to intolerable.  I don't believe in pretense.  I've said I find your pretense more insulting then if you just came out directly.  Problem is, you may not like it, but that doesn't make it wrong, or against any rules.  I don't like things you do, but you have clearly shown that it is of little matter to you.  So, why should my blatant honesty be sugar coated for you?  Give me a good reason?  If you say to make peace or make this a nicer, better place, remember those are your goals, not mine.  

Anyone else find it ironic that Loudnotes is pushing for  a more peaceful and tolerant place here, but is intolerant of me?

The only thing I really can't stand is being talked down to, repeatedly and after direct askance of stopping.  

Gee, and like you've really accommodated me in not doing the things that piss me off?  Oh, that's right, you continue to do them.

[Bondo (got logged out)]

"Actually, Bondo throws personal attacks at me all the time. And if you remember, I never attacked that asshole until he made that very hurtful slander of my friend.? Since he deserves absolutely no respect at all, I find insulting him to be appropiate in any case."

I love how Bucc misinterprets my having Hitler and Grifter in the same paragraph as a direct comparison continues to count as such even after I've explained that it was in no way a direct comparison.  Just to explain to those who didn't see it, I was making the logical argument that cruelty is wrong whether on an extreme scale (Hitler) or on the small or petty scale (Grifter).  I called Grifter an asshole, a title he no doubt would accept willingly based on how he treated me.  Somehow this perfectly valid and not really insulting argument was taking way out of context by Bucc to mean that I think Grifter is as bad as Hitler.

Apparently you base your justification of insulting me on an "insult" that I made that was in no way meant to be an insult.  We'll also ignore that my insults to you and others as a whole are based on grounds of reciprication and self-defense, not unprovoked derision.  If no insults were made to me or others, I would have no need to use any myself.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I love how Bucc misinterprets my having Hitler and Grifter in the same paragraph as a direct comparison continues to count as such even after I've explained that it was in no way a direct comparison.  

Not the insult I ever brought up asshole.  Shows how much you even pay fucking attention.  I've never posted about that part, though others did.  I've pointed out the insult over and over for your retarded ass.  

Apparently you base your justification of insulting me on an "insult" that I made that was in no way meant to be an insult.  We'll also ignore that my insults to you and others as a whole are based on grounds of reciprication and self-defense, not unprovoked derision.  

It was an insult.  You defended the insult.  You stood by the insult.  You are now just full of shit.  You have also insulted me in threads long before I have you, so don't give me that bullshit about self-defense.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

I love how Bucc misinterprets my having Hitler and Grifter in the same paragraph as a direct comparison continues to count as such even after I've explained that it was in no way a direct comparison.  

Not the insult I ever brought up asshole.  Shows how much you even pay fucking attention.  I've never posted about that part, though others did.  I've pointed out the insult over and over for your retarded ass.  

Well, that is the "insult" upon which you and Deadeye started insulting me mostly.  I realize you never brought that up, because guess what, I was paying attention.  And since you have not mentioned it in this thread, why don't you share my alleged insult of Grifter that set you against me.

And just a note, if you look at my post above, and then at yours, mine was much more civil than yours.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Well, that is the "insult" upon which you and Deadeye started insulting me mostly.  I realize you never brought that up, because guess what, I was paying attention.  And since you have not mentioned it in this thread, why don't you share my alleged insult of Grifter that set you against me.

Wait a minute, if you were paying attention enough to notice that I never mentioned it, ever, then you'd know the insult you made that set this off in the begining.  Which is it?  Paying attention or not?  Because I sure as hell posted on it enough.  Can't figure it out, go back and read.

And just a note, if you look at my post above, and then at yours, mine was much more civil than yours.

HA.  And if you had paid attention to anything I wrote in this thead you'd see that civility isn't what I consider respect.  And you can show disrespect your way, and I can show it mine.  What about that can't you wrap your little mind around?

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Wait a minute, if you were paying attention enough to notice that I never mentioned it, ever, then you'd know the insult you made that set this off in the begining.  Which is it?  Paying attention or not?  Because I sure as hell posted on it enough.  Can't figure it out, go back and read.

Not in this thread you didn't.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Yep, I'm wrong, I wrote that in the three other threads you have going on around this topic, but not this one.

You still see the point.

You also failed to acknowledge any of the other points.  But what do I expect, that's normal for you.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

You also failed to acknowledge any of the other points.  But what do I expect, that's normal for you.

Why am I obligated to reply to every single thing you write?

[jub]

I actually agree with rapid  

Scary

[jn.loudnotes]

Lol, and we've been over that too.  Part of the difficulty in replying to everything is the posting style!

Do you understand Bucc?  You can't have it both ways.  Post concisely and expect replies, or post as you do and expect what you're getting.  I frankly don't expect you to reply to this.  Just as we've both missed points of the other that we each thought was extremely important.

Example:

If I make a post with 10 points in it, 9 of which are mediocre and one which makes my case completely - and you dissect that post and kill the 9 points very effectively - what about that 1?  What if you just happen to skip over it, or miss it?  We've miscommunicated. . .down the line somewhere I'll be a loudass and you'll accuse me of missing something of yours in one of your posts.  (As no doubt I will since I'm trying to respond to each of your responses to 9 things!)  The same thing is true with Bondo - you're each missing the main point the other is making to go after the details.  

That's why I've asked you to address the main idea.  We've been over it, it's apparent it won't happen.  But for you to continue to expect Bondo or anyone else to have addressed everything you say is ridiculous.  And admit it, you do feel slighted every time someone "ignores" a point you make - when they've most likely just missed it in the shroud of details.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

I'll point out that in the open letter thread, I mentioned that I agreed with him that your moderation was somewhat questionable due to the lack of posted rules (which not only is agreeing with Bucc, but sort of disagreeing with you who has been one of the few people to give vocal support for me).  I of course mean no venom in my comment like Bucc has in regards to the issue.  But Bucc fails to point this out in his response.  So Bucc, I guess that makes you one of those hypocrites you always call me on (which would be a second cause of him being hypocritical in itself).

The point being, you don't reply to all the points Bucc, and neither do we, we should just accept that it isn't going to happen and that it probably shouldn't need to happen.

[Jeb]

I actually agree with rapid  

Scary

Nice post rapid

[The Ghost of Bondo]

In an addition to my post above.

By pointing out a problem (by Bucc's standards) in his posting, I show that if I were so inclined, I could take Bucc's posts and do the exact same thing he does to others.  He is in no way a better poster than others, it is just he is the only one who is a big enough ass to bother doing what he does.

I won't sink to his level of tearing points out of context and criticizing them, but believe me, there is plenty of potential there for someone who would go to that level.