BULLSHIT - Let's piss off some liberals =D

[|MP|Buccaneer]

For those that haven't noticed it yet, there is a new show on Showtime called BULLSHIT.  Done by Penn and Teller in the spirit of Harry Hudini and his debunking of all things BULLSHIT.  I suggest any of you try to catch an episode.  Now this is some good political and social commentary.  The best two they have out right now deal with the people that protest and rally about the environment and about baby products.  Well, those hit home with me the most anyway.

For example, they went to the Earth Day rally in DC to get some opinions.  To start with, even the people that were the designated spokes people for their groups couldn't really explain why they were protesting (what the problem actually was).  They all liked the buzz words, but none of them really knew any of the science behind it (and yes, like always, the science matters).  They actually sent around a woman with a petition to sign calling for a ban on dihydrogenmonoxide.  She told no lies but almost everyone signed it, including the organizers of the rally.  How sad.  They all signed up to ban water.  

Take it even farther, the biggest buzz phrase was "deforestation".  Everyone was against the logging industry.  They then pulled on the founder of Greenpeace (Patrick Moore) and he mentioned what idiots people were being.  How logging (just like hunting) is not a bad thing.  It's actually healthier for our forests with all the new growth and all (they plant more trees then they cut down).  He also mocks what Greenpeace has become, along with most of these other movements.  That they are social clubs and don't take into account the actual science of the situation.  They showed him clips of these activists talking about how species become extinct every 12 minutes and he asks where's the proof?  That it's real easy to restate buzz phrases like that, but where is the actual scientific proof?

It really reminded me of a few people here and their emotional stances on topics where they repeated catch phrases but couldn't actually get any real data showing what they were saying.

Anyway, check it out.  Here's a link if you are interested.  http://www.sho.com/ptbs/

[Mr.Mellow]

Yeah, that show's been on for a while. I caught a few episodes last year at my friend's house. One of them was about baby products and child care, and another was about second-hand smoke. It's nice to see stuff backed up by facts once in a while, not just people spewing out crap. It's amazing some of the things they can get people to do. For example, they got parents to put on diapers and play with children's toys as a way to "get in touch with their babies" or something along the lines of that. It's funny AND educational.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Certainly there is no denying that some people (both sides of the spectrum and in between) hold view points based on ignorance.  How is this any difference than Michael Moore going in and making a fool of Charlton Heston.

Any doubt that Penn and Teller actively seeked the ignorant ones and cut the ones of people who knew what they were talking about?  It is hardly "fair and balanced" to highlight the lowest common denominator of a political stance.  This is often what Bill O'Reilly does, he finds the best people to defend his side but not the best to defend the opposing side.

[Jeb]

heh,
I'm kinda tired of ignorant protesters, i live in seattle, there is no shortage of them here.
And yes there are idiots who are conservative, and liberal. Like those southern bible thumpers who protest churches that have gay members. It seems that when people become really liberal or really conservative they are more prone to ignorance. Common folk don't care or talk about shit that they don't know about.

[kami]

Well first I'd like to point out that that prank about the dihydromonoxide ban was actually a Swedish student prank during the 80s (or 90s) and is in no way very original.. They even had a lot of well-manufactured "facts" behind it that time. The people who signed that petition came from a lot of different social classes.

And also Bucc, I don't think this topic really has anything to do with liberals, it has to do with activists and extremist environmentalists who are all complete dumbasses most of the time. They are not liberals.

And mellow, it is practically proven that second-hand smoking is very harmful (if not as harmful as first-hand smoking) for your health so don't say anything about that.

[Cossack]

Well they are protesting/demonstrating for the right reason, but it is true that many of them dont know likety shit. Unfortunently this is what many people see librals as. They assosiate that image with the word leftist and Liberal. Just like many leftists (including myself) assosiate the christain zealot with right. But what the hey, its fun to steryotype.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Damnit Cossack, why don't you just go drink some vodka wearing your fur coat and shut up  

[jn.loudnotes]

I fully agree, Bucc

However, you've made a great statement about the sad state of the American public, not any substantive argument against the positions of those who actually are educated and reasoned in their viewpoints.

Often the people who take to marching on the streets for causes are those who are the most radical and therefore least objective.  Sometimes that's a positive thing, but often it is a severe bind to credibility and even proper argument.

I seriously doubt you would want your own pro-war views equated with those of people who went to "anti-anti-war" rallies.

[Snipes]

Yea thats the spirit, Talk down to the retarded liberals!!!  

Republicans Rule
Liberals Reek

Aint it the truth.. For example, Bill Clinton, shared military secrets with the chinese and other enemys of our country.. If it wasnt for him, 9/11 and other awful scenarios would not have formed. And, Al Gore, What a retard, I am so reileved that he was not elected

To Bill Clinton :

To Al Gore :

Ya get the point ??

[*NADS Capt. Anarchy]

Snipey... you poor fella... someone educate him? Please? The public school system failed?

[kami]

Snipey, you are so fucking sad.

[tasty]

I checked out their website and it really looks like it is a pretty good show. I agree that almost all of the topics discussed on their show are pretty heavily filled with BS, especially creationism, bottled water, the "Left Behind" series of books, self help, and alternative medicine. However, I do take issue with their environmental "expos?". I feel environmental activists are being misrepresented with this quote:

Take it even farther, the biggest buzz phrase was "deforestation".? Everyone was against the logging industry.? They then pulled on the founder of Greenpeace (Patrick Moore) and he mentioned what idiots people were being.? How logging (just like hunting) is not a bad thing.? It's actually healthier for our forests with all the new growth and all (they plant more trees then they cut down).

The reason environmental activists despise logging is because they are cutting down old growth trees, trees that those ecosystems are completely dependend on for providing habitats, nourishment, etc to the other plants and animals of coniferous forests. When logging companies cut down those trees and plant more new ones in their space, they have ruined the ecosystem and killed most of the flora and fauna that once existed there. Because when they plant new trees, they cant plant deeply rooted, 200 foot tall old growth trees. They plant skinny little stubs that will take hundreds of years to reach the point where the forest was before. These stubs are ugly and planted in completely uniform rows of all the same type of tree, bearing absolutely no resemblance to the beautiful forests that once existed in their place. Moreover, these rows of newly planted trees are extremely susceptible to forest fires, which the logging industry and president Bush have completely disingenuously blamed on the environmental movement.

I agree that there are plenty of dumbasses in the movement. Julia Butterfly Hill was featured on Penn and Teller's website as one of the leaders, and I must agree with em. I've met her in person and she has more than a few screws loose. She exhibits what I find one of the most annoying trends in activism today: stupid, uneducated people with nothing in their lives and nowhere else to go joining up and dedicating their lives to liberal causes because they just want to be accepted somewhere. So even though there are ridiculous people in the movement, that doesn't mean one should disrespect the entire movement for it. There is science behind environmentalism (ie, the environmental science departments at major universities), and its a shame that many of its proponents don't know enough to quote the stuff. I think loudnotes said it well with his anti-anti-war argument; making Julia Butterfly Hill the poster child of environmentalism is like making Jerry Falwell the poster child of conservatism. Even though they are well known (and well liked, within their movements at least) leaders, if you interview them you just know they're gonna say something embarassing.

[Snipes]

What makes that post 'Sad' ? I am just saying how I feel about Liberals..

[*NADS Capt. Anarchy]

Snipey... do you truly believe that Bill Clinton was the determining factor that caused 9/11?

[The Ghost of Bondo]

There is science behind environmentalism (ie, the environmental science departments at major universities)

Hehe, my major is Geography and Environmental Science.  You said it.  I happen to be focusing on the more geography/geospatial side but certainly if I wanted to take a more ecological side I could as well...things like biodiversity.

[Jeb]

LOL,
Bill Clinton was the reason 9/11 happened? Please snipey explain, and cite sources on this.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Kami, it's a very old one, but still pathetic how people fall for it.

Any doubt that Penn and Teller actively seeked the ignorant ones and cut the ones of people who knew what they were talking about?  

They asked the groups running it to supply the spokes people, they didn't seek out the dumb ones.  I thought I wrote that already.  

Well they are protesting/demonstrating for the right reason, but it is true that many of them dont know likety shit.

Cossack, that's where I call BULLSHIT.  They can't be doing it for the right reason when they don't know the reasons.  That was the whole point.  They are completely misguided, just spouting catch phrases that they've heard, not understanding what it's all about.  Reminds me of Bondo.

However, you've made a great statement about the sad state of the American public, not any substantive argument against the positions of those who actually are educated and reasoned in their viewpoints.

No, because the ones that are educated and reasoned aren't the issue.  And I bring up Patrick Moore as an example of that.  Founder and former president of Greenpeace, well educated and motivated in regards to the environment.  Him I don't mock at all.  I may not agree with everything he's ever said or done, but he's done so looking at the evidence in a scientific method (so unlike the people I was mocking, which includes some here).

BTW, this isn't an American issue.  The idiots are a world wide problem, just like the environment.  I've seen protests in Europe, and most of the protesters that I came across were just as uneducated and dumb.

I seriously doubt you would want your own pro-war views equated with those of people who went to "anti-anti-war" rallies.

Then you assume wrong once again.  Since I did write here how I did go to a rally held by the arab-american community here, that supported the war.  The people that organized the rally I went to were very well educated and spoken.  Not crying out for blood but for the limited force needed to make Iraq safe for their families.

Above all else, don't forget that I am an environmentalist.  I belong to the MUCC (Michigan United Conservation Club), and even teach some of their classes to kids.  

The reason environmental activists despise logging is because they are cutting down old growth trees, trees that those ecosystems are completely dependend on for providing habitats, nourishment, etc to the other plants and animals of coniferous forests. When logging companies cut down those trees and plant more new ones in their space, they have ruined the ecosystem and killed most of the flora and fauna that once existed there.

They've killed off most of the fauna?  Like Patrick Moore said, PROVE IT.  How have they ruined the ecosystem?  Those 200 year old trees have been there for 200 years, what was there 500 years before them?  Other trees?  What happend to those poor trees?

Trees grow, live and die, just like any other plant.  The whole point is education.  Logging and the forests have to be MANAGED.  Logging in and of itself is a good thing, and good for the ecosystems, just like the occasional forest fire is (and if you don't believe that, I can point you in the right direction for some reading.)  Forest fires help clear out old growth and also return many important compounds to the soil.  I'm not talking about the huge, out of control fires of the past few years, but forest fires in general.  Logging does some of the same.  You talk about the fauna that is destroyed by felling the old growth, but what about the fauna that the old growth choked off itself?  Didn't think about that, did ya?  

They plant skinny little stubs that will take hundreds of years to reach the point where the forest was before. These stubs are ugly and planted in completely uniform rows of all the same type of tree, bearing absolutely no resemblance to the beautiful forests that once existed in their place.

Are we talking Ecology and Environment or Asthetics of your personal liking?  They are planting trees, trees which will grow for another 100 years or so before being cut down.  Trees that for that time will house all kinds of flora and fauna.  Just like they would if they had planted themselves after a natural forest fire.  You don't like the way they look?  That's a valid, scientific reason, now isn't it?

[tasty]

Bucc, you are right -- in a way. I don't think that logging will ruin these areas forever. I just think it ruins them for several hundred years, and quite frankly yes for me a lot of it has to do with aesthetics. I want to be able to enjoy the beauty of these forests, and I want my children to be able to as well. I understand that plants and animals compete and often kill one another off. And I recognize that logging has the same effect - I just think its much more drastic. I know the world needs paper, but the way the logging companies are going about it is stupid, because they are hardly considering sustainability at all. The logging companies continue to cut old growth while ignoring the forests full of trees they themselves have planted. They say the problem with these forests are that they do not yield wood nearly as well as old growth and that it takes many more trees to make the same amount. Too bad for them, at the pace the world consumes paper all of the northwestern old growth will be gone in a few decades and all we will have left is forests full of tiny trees that aren't nearly mature enough to produce good paper. Then what will we do? Why do we always approach environmental problems from the angle of "we'll deal with that when it becomes a worldwide disaster that absolutely must be dealt with, and until then we are ignoring it"?

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Kami, it's a very old one, but still pathetic how people fall for it.

Any doubt that Penn and Teller actively seeked the ignorant ones and cut the ones of people who knew what they were talking about?  

They asked the groups running it to supply the spokes people, they didn't seek out the dumb ones.  I thought I wrote that already.  

Well they are protesting/demonstrating for the right reason, but it is true that many of them dont know likety shit.

Cossack, that's where I call BULLSHIT.  They can't be doing it for the right reason when they don't know the reasons.  That was the whole point.  They are completely misguided, just spouting catch phrases that they've heard, not understanding what it's all about.  Reminds me of Bondo.

Sure, Penn and Teller are going to SAY they got the best spokespeople.

Oh, and once again you show your complete arrogant condescention that somehow you know everything and thus when I disagree I'm stupid or wrong.  I understand exactly what I write about.  You just have problems understanding it because you are blinded by your hatred for me and would prefer to twist what I say rather than accept that it has reason and truth to it.

[Cossack]

LOL,
Bill Clinton was the reason 9/11 happened? Please snipey explain, and cite sources on this.

Most likley Rush and his parents.